(not) out of limbo

[WaywardW]

Got to admit, I'm frequently checking your situation for updates too :-)

Hope you're happy with whichever outcome you arrive at.

[ovrrnbw]

Hello Miss May,

I am caught up on your sitch. I hope you are staying hopeful, but also preparing for the worst. It is powerful to have hope. Don't lose hope in anything you do, but always be prepared for the worst. Seatbelts, right? I read about many WAS's here that are just so stubborn. I think we are just describing people as a whole. I wouldn't worry about this for a second. Obviously there are good signs, but I think it is important to stay more in your mind than in your heart at the present time. Do not forget these major betrayals just out of love for him. If he is repentant, you can forgive. Remember to do what works. My W had many false starts too. It's BS. Don't stand for a second of it. Stick to DB basics. I still need work on my 180s.

[may22]

hi guys,

Sorry for the long delay! Camping and then every time I got out my computer last night he kept coming over to look at what I was doing. (He knows I journal and it makes him uncomfortable because he thinks I'm just writing down what an a-hole he is. Which isn't that far from the truth but better to write it down than to spew it at him!)

After our friends left Saturday H was kind of a d*ck that night and Sunday on the way up camping. Worked really, really hard to pick a fight with me and I finally took the bait (he'd wanted to go up Saturday night, which would have been impossible to have made happen. He knew this logically but couldn't let it go). I yelled at him, we both got over it and camping ended up being a lot of fun. I spent some great time with other moms I didn't know that well and who were awesome. I also noticed that H continues to be much better at identifying his feelings -- he can say his feelings were hurt rather than just act like a jerk. He felt like one of the dads who is a good friend of both of ours has been treating him a bit coldly, and was fishing to see if I had said anything about his A to his wife. (I haven't.) He said OK, he just was thinking that would be a reason why.

After we got home, he came up to me and gave me a long hug and apologized for being a d*ck. He said he was hurting but he shouldn't take it out on me. I said I understood, but that this was hard on me too. I think this emotional hangover thing is real and I need to remember that he's going through this all too, probably far more intensely than I am right now.

Last night we finally talked a little about what happened on his trip. He said that he broke up with her, it was over. That it was really hard and he feels like $hit. I asked if there was anything I would be upset about if I knew and he said no. I said OK, I understood that this would take time and that he wasn't there yet, but at some point I was going to need more information than that both to understand what had happened and also to be able to learn to trust him again. For instance, how could I trust that this time was going to be different from the others? He said look, the reasons I gave aren't going to change. If I was going to decide to go, I would have done it. This is it. I'm trying to focus on all the positives of staying in the MR but this is hard and I really don't want to talk about it right now. He said the details were irrelevant, I knew what I needed to know, if I couldn't trust him than what were we even doing?

I pushed it some, I *really* wanted to know what had happened (mostly if they had slept together) and plus I started to feel panicky, like how would I really know it was over, was I going to go through the rest of my life as a consolation prize with a resentful H that still held a candle for the AP, etc. I called him selfish, said he was so focused on how he felt that he was blind to the damage he had caused me and didn't care what I was going through. He said he wanted to know and would listen but at that point I started to feel like it maybe wasn't such a good idea and I should probably not be engaging in a two-way R talk at this moment.

He got upset, said it was really worrying to him that I wasn't happier, that I had "won" (it really, really bugs me that he put it that way), that he was worried that now that I "had" him I was realizing he wasn't all that much of a prize and it was one thing while there was competition but now I was going to decide well, never mind. (And maybe that had been going through my head a little bit, wondering if all the things he had said to me were true, he would never ever be able to have those feelings for me again, is this what I really want, etc.)

We took a break from each other for a bit and then I told him before we went to bed that I understood he was going through a difficult time and I was willing to give him time and space on this. I am in this for the long haul and we don't need to have all these conversations today. That being said, there was going to be a time when we would have to deal with all of this in the future if we wanted to build M2.0, and it wasn't just going to be around why I didn't want to have sex with him but around his behaviors and how I could trust him again. And, the one thing I absolutely refused to do was to brush this all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. He agreed and thanked me, said we should work with the MC on this rather than try to hash it all out on our own right now.

So, where does that leave me/us? Clearly, he is not in a place where he's ready to R. No way. None of the three conditions Blu laid out are present. He's still a huge mess and not ready to focus on the MR. I don't know when that will happen (if ever, I guess) but I'm not expecting it soon. I think he will need time to grieve the loss of AP and that isn't going to happen overnight. I think I knew this intellectually but there was a part of me that kind of hoped he'd come back actually SORRY and be focused on how to repair the damage done to me and to our R, not simply still feeling sorry for himself. I know I have a lot of unprocessed trust/forgiveness issues that will need to be dealt with eventually if this is going to work and they started to surface a bit. I think I'm just getting ahead of myself and need to continue to focus on detaching, my kids, and myself rather than his pain and confusion at the moment.

Do I believe him about ending the A? I do. I would really like more details to be able to assess it all for myself, but at this point I do believe that it happened and that there was a difference from the past attempts. I would also like more transparency to feel more confident in the future that this is really over, but (a) he's not in a place to provide that right now and (b) even if he did, there is nothing he could do or say now that would make me 100% believe that he isn't going to relapse in a few weeks. I'm choosing to trust on this one. Did he sleep with her in the process? I don't know. I actually don't think so and think his refusal to say is like pushing back on perceived control from me... but again, nothing I can do about it at this point. Pestering him to find out details is not going to be helpful. Will wait until our next DC/MC appointment to decide how to address this.

What am I going to do? All this brought home to me all the things I've learned on this board and in DR-- this is a marathon, not a sprint; I need to buckle down and keep focusing on the DBing. A big part of me feels like this is more important now than ever. Get out and GAL, keep a PMA, don't start R talks, focus on myself. I do feel somewhat less anxious without him actively saying he might leave, and hoping I can take this mental space to start focusing on some work/career related issues for myself.

Thank you all so much for your support and caring. xx

[AlisonUK]

This sounds very very hard, May, and I applaud you for the fact you've not gone stark raving mad at him. I think you're perhaps working towards finding a better balance between supporting your H and understanding he is going through his own stuff, and also making sure what you need and what you think are also acknowledged.

I can see he's exhausted and stressed and overwhelmed and this hasn't been a pleasant process for him, but the sense that he comes back, doesn't want to reassure you that he didn't sleep with the woman he's been cheating on you with, gets a bit sulky because he imagines his friends aren't being warm enough to him (my H does this too!!) and then gets irritable because you're not grateful enough that you 'won' are all signs to me that he isn't ready - as you point out.

I really don't like this idea of 'winning' that's been expressed here and by your husband. Your H isn't a prize you and the OW get to fight over (I know you don't think that) and even if it was - your 'H' won - in that you're still speaking to him and willing to entertain the possibility of having an R with him. Until he gets that and is able to show some healthy gratitude and remorse I think you're right, he's not ready to R.

The question now, for you, which you don't have to answer now - or at all on this board - but might mull over yourself for a while (once you've dealt with that hangover) is how you plan to live and interact with him now. He's not ready to R. So you're not in an R. You're in some kind of IHS? Or limbo? What are your boundaries? What will you give and take, and what do you reserve for a functioning marriage? Is there any point carrying on with DC? You know what you want. He claims to know what he wants, but isn't ready to provide your bottom-line deal-breakers.

Perhaps making a list of things that are your non negotiables (sounds like transparency and taking responsibility for damage (what would that look like?) would be on that list) even if you don't tell your H what those are right now would be useful for you.

[may22]

I really don't like this idea of 'winning' that's been expressed here and by your husband. Your H isn't a prize you and the OW get to fight over (I know you don't think that) and even if it was - your 'H' won - in that you're still speaking to him and willing to entertain the possibility of having an R with him. Until he gets that and is able to show some healthy gratitude and remorse I think you're right, he's not ready to R.

Alison.... I know!! The use of the word "won" just was like nails on a chalkboard. I reacted much like you'd imagine when he used that word and he said well, you did. You won the battle or whatever. You got what you've been asking for. I'm here. It's over. And he pointed to his hand with his wedding ring on it. I wanted to say (but refrained) not only about him not being a prize to fight over but I'm not doing this for me. I'm not doing this to win. I'm doing this for US, you a-hole, you, me, and the children, to build our family back together so that our kids don't have to have stresses around who sits where at their GD weddings and we can do all the things we dreamed we would do together when we were young. If all I cared about were myself we would not be having this conversation. THIS? is not "winning".

But. I said none of that. There is really no point. He can't hear any of it and it just makes it all more difficult.

The question now, for you, which you don't have to answer now - or at all on this board - but might mull over yourself for a while (once you've dealt with that hangover) is how you plan to live and interact with him now. He's not ready to R. So you're not in an R. You're in some kind of IHS? Or limbo? What are your boundaries? What will you give and take, and what do you reserve for a functioning marriage? Is there any point carrying on with DC? You know what you want. He claims to know what he wants, but isn't ready to provide your bottom-line deal-breakers.

What you say here is exactly what I've been thinking about (when I woke up at 4 am and couldn't go back to sleep). This advice from overrnbw:

I hope you are staying hopeful, but also preparing for the worst. It is powerful to have hope. Don't lose hope in anything you do, but always be prepared for the worst. Seatbelts, right? I read about many WAS's here that are just so stubborn. I think we are just describing people as a whole. I wouldn't worry about this for a second. Obviously there are good signs, but I think it is important to stay more in your mind than in your heart at the present time. Do not forget these major betrayals just out of love for him. If he is repentant, you can forgive. Remember to do what works. My W had many false starts too. It's BS. Don't stand for a second of it. Stick to DB basics. I still need work on my 180s.

really resonates with me. (Thanks, overnnbw!!) I think I need to treat this all like not that much has really changed...yes, perhaps his A is over in that he will no longer see or speak to her, but I don't know if it is really over in his head (is he still holding out hope or whatever) and until he has the time and space to process those feelings and truly let her go, he won't be ready for anything. I feel like just going back to DB basics is probably the smartest thing for me to do. I just think we are so far away from forgiveness it isn't really worth focusing on at the moment. Part of me, though, is just so tired of being the one standing I would just really love for him to meet me halfway. But that isn't going to happen right now, so I need to stop caring that it isn't.

I do want to take guidance from the DC/MC counselor and feel like it is probably a good idea to talk about this at some level with him present, since we obviously are having a hard time doing it on our own. I don't like the idea of pretending everything is OK all week long and then having one weekly conversation with a therapist to figure out what is happening with our R, but at this point I am not really interested in opening up another R conversation unless I feel like something has changed (and I don't see that happening for awhile). Anyway. I'm curious to see what he says.

For now, though, I think I'm going to get as much space and GAL time as I can this week. Yoga tonight and Thursday. Saturday I have an all-day all-women retreat. Maybe I can figure out a way to get out of the house Wednesday and Friday, just to give myself some breathing room so that I can continue to be positive and work on my 180s at home.

I also think I need to really revisit my expectations about what "should" happen during reconciliation... I had read ALL these books and had all these ideas, from him going cold turkey on AP and us sitting down together to block all her #s and delete her contact info from his phone to what I would need to feel secure again in the future on a business trip to her city. But it is all about his behavior, not mine. And that is not within my control. I'm worried that in my head I'm OK with being zen about this limbo but I imagine there will be some point in the future where things snap back to normal and I'm in control again. And I don't know if that is going to happen.

So... I wouldn't say I'm happy with what has happened, but I'm also not sad. I feel like if we're running a marathon, maybe we just made an important milestone at mile marker 3 or something-- had to get past this first hill but there are several more and many, many more miles to go. Maybe just *a* step in the right direction-- if this sticks-- but I'm just going to continue to sit where I am, go back to DB basics, and maybe try to refocus some of the energy and anxieties I had had around him and the AP into my career for a bit. I have a bunch of things I've been putting off that I really need to elevate.

[AlisonUK]

May, I think your focus is just right: on your own behaviour. In a way, whatever happens or doesn't happen with the OW isn't the problem - it's what your H is able and willing to do for your marriage, and - even more importantly than that - what you are willing to accept and what 'not accepting' would look like to you.

I'm glad that you don't consider it that you've 'won' - for all the reasons you say, it's unhealthy and unwise. If your H is thinking like that, it's only going to breed resentment in the future. People who 'win' the 'pick me' dance have a miserable time and you're right not to play it.

You seem to be buttoning your lip a LOT around your H. I notice it in your posts because I do it too. I struggle - perhaps as you do - with knowing when the right time is to show anger, to lay out a boundary, to send a truth dart, to speak up for myself and to let him know verbally what is okay with me and what is not, and when it is more appropriate to STFU and turn instead to my friends, my own resources, to just sulk and scream in the shower.

I think the answer to that question - when to speak and be honest, when to STFU - depends very much on where in this journey you are. There are things that are not appropriate when you have a boundary and are not yet R, and things that are tricky but necessary to share in piecing, and things that it would be unhealthy NOT to share in a fully functioning healthy marriage. (I hope this is making sense: I am just figuring it out myself as I type).

When I was 'dark' with my H, I had this rule: I would be as cheery and polite as I could be, and share nothing with him that I wouldn't share with the cashier at a shop. Idle chit chat about the weather - fine. Nothing else. And we went very quickly from that to R and I am having incredibly difficulty making the transition. For you, it doesn't seem like there's been any separation, you've never really 'gone dark' and the DC has kept the intimate truths of what's going on in your heart available to your H. So it's very different.

I hope you're well. x

[AlisonUK]

I also think I need to really revisit my expectations about what "should" happen during reconciliation... I had read ALL these books and had all these ideas, from him going cold turkey on AP and us sitting down together to block all her #s and delete her contact info from his phone to what I would need to feel secure again in the future on a business trip to her city. But it is all about his behavior, not mine. And that is not within my control. I'm worried that in my head I'm OK with being zen about this limbo but I imagine there will be some point in the future where things snap back to normal and I'm in control again. And I don't know if that is going to happen.

May - I wanted to post again to give you MASSIVE empathy on this point.

Even when I was dark with my H - and I really did have little expectation that he would turnaround, I still concocted these fantasies in my head about what an R would look like. I think it's REALLY hard to do the inner work of figuring out what your bottom lines are in terms of remorse and transparency and at the same time be open to the fact that you aren't in control of what you get, what that looks like, and that if there's two people working on a reconciliation there will be two sets of 'bottom lines'. I know part of my struggle is that even though I went dark, I still had this imagined future R which would be much better in all kinds of ways, because H would be remorseful, and remorse would look like the affection and reassurance and emotional availability I'd been craving, and finally I would have the marriage I decided would be best for me (and him) and as it isn't like that - well, it's been difficult. As you know.

What the balance is between having some expectations for basic behaviours that need to be in place before you R, and also not controlling outcomes and being open to things being not as you expect - well, I don't know what that is.

[KristinG]

So... I wouldn't say I'm happy with what has happened, but I'm also not sad. I feel like if we're running a marathon, maybe we just made an important milestone at mile marker 3 or something-- had to get past this first hill but there are several more and many, many more miles to go. Maybe just *a* step in the right direction-- if this sticks-- but I'm just going to continue to sit where I am, go back to DB basics, and maybe try to refocus some of the energy and anxieties I had had around him and the AP into my career for a bit. I have a bunch of things I've been putting off that I really need to elevate.

Hey girl. I've been thinking of you these last few days. I'm glad you're doing ok and remembering to breathe. On one hand I'm so happy for the "milestone", but like Ovr, guard your heart and prepare for the worst. Good plans to sit with it and continue your DB basics.

As far as putting things off, wow I can completely relate. It's like this whole last year and half my head has been on channel scan and I can only focus on something for a short amount of time. Maybe now you can refocus your energies and get some productive work done (as hard as that seems).

My fingers and toes are crossed for you and H, but I agree it will take him some time to move past his resentment and anger at having ended things. I read somewhere (I don't remember where) that sometimes true remorse and repentance doesn't come until 4-6 months of NC with AP. Call it affair fog, crazy brain, alien spouses or whatever you will - these things just take time. Maybe now you can view this particular limbo as a gift for both you and him. Plus it's a little easier of a pill to swallow in terms of "the gift".

((May)) Stay strong and think through your reactions before speaking them (I know H will push your buttons)

KG

[SamCal]

May - I too kept checking in for an update! I am glad that it sounds like you are aware/levelheaded on what is going on, and being cautious in a good way. Kudos to you for also recognizing the part about needing to revisit what R actually looks like. (I feel kind of the same way after my weekend with H that just concluded). Obviously there are some universal pieces, but it's smart to be more specific about what YOU need and what you can and cannot control.

Also echoing that your H's use of the word "won" is totally irritating. You won...the H you had already committed to? You won as opposed to the OW or as opposed to H (or both)? I wonder if he will reframe that in his mind to make it less adversarial, and if the MC can help with that some how. From the outside, you are definitely the prize here, not H or OW.

[HesAble]

May, I am so inspired by your emotional strength while dealing with all of this! My own M is so far from reconciliation that it is pathetic, but I love reading about hopeful situations like yours. Keep up your DB basics. You can do this!