Perils of piecing - thread 8

[wooba]

Alison- about the doing the dishes part- reminds me of a great book called “Fair Play” by Eve Rodsky. Not sure if it will help you, the book basically shows how to divide up the everyday workload of a M from a project management standpoint. Ex. The spouse who has the “weekly dinner” card would be responsible for the whole thing: conception, planning, and execution.

Might be fun to play the “game” for you guys just to try it out. I’m happy for you that you and your H are piecing. Although reading your thread I understand that it’s still hard work if not even harder than before. Good luck!!

[AlisonUK]

Alison- about the doing the dishes part- reminds me of a great book called “Fair Play” by Eve Rodsky. Not sure if it will help you, the book basically shows how to divide up the everyday workload of a M from a project management standpoint. Ex. The spouse who has the “weekly dinner” card would be responsible for the whole thing: conception, planning, and execution.

Might be fun to play the “game” for you guys just to try it out. I’m happy for you that you and your H are piecing. Although reading your thread I understand that it’s still hard work if not even harder than before. Good luck!!

I will look into this book - thank you!

We don't - as a rule - have much conflict around housework. I'd say I have more of the 'mental load' in some aspects of our lives, and he in others. I think we both do about 50/50. There are some minor annoyances - he's never lifted an iron in his life (but then again, I don't have much to do with servicing the car) and I generally manage money though we both earn it and have our own accounts. I'd say in that aspect of our lives we are in pretty much harmonious relationship. And I think we'd both agree that when we start sniping at each other over housework it's a sign of something else going wrong. H was incredibly critical over the most minor domestic thing before he left - it was wearing and unnecessary and tipped over into bullying lots of the time. But he never does that any more and would get short shrift if he did.

[AlisonUK]

Weekly update. I am so glad that Yail suggested this.

So - we have had a better week. I mentioned H has been suggesting marriage therapists to me - emailing me their contents - and I haven't responded. Got a gentle challenge about that from Dilly (thank you) so I let him know I had the emails, would look at the counsellors and have a think, and could we make a decision at the weekend. So that feels better. I do want to be clear with the counsellor - in front of H - what my reluctance is about. I think I will frame this in a more positive, less critical way.

I guess these are my thoughts: 'I don't want to pay for the pleasure of listening to you whine and blame everything that's wrong with you, your life and our marriage on me. I'm bored of that.'

And a more positive way would be, 'our situation has been going on a long time. I think I understand the aspects of our marriage and lives together that aren't satisfactory to you. I'm here because I'd like to hear what specifics you want to change, and to work together to make that happen.'

Does that sound okay?

Other than that, I don't have much to report. We've been passing each other like ships in the night due to my work and GAL and his schedule, but that seems fine. He's been a little more affectionate that usual and checks in with me via text during the day. I feel a bit drained and wrung-out, but that's nothing to do with my H, it is because I am having a heavy time at work and it has been winter for at least a thousand years.

[may22]

hi Alison (hoping I am welcome ):

Just a thought about the MC.

And a more positive way would be, 'our situation has been going on a long time. I think I understand the aspects of our marriage and lives together that aren't satisfactory to you. I'm here because I'd like to hear what specifics you want to change, and to work together to make that happen.'

Yes, I think so. I think it is 100% valid (and honestly should be standard) to start with each of your goals, and yours is action and solution oriented. Like you, we had a pretty terrible experience with our first MC. We basically just relitigated every fight in front of her for an hour and she would barely get a word in edgewise. I always left fuming, and then H thought she was on 'my side' (plus the whole secret A thing) so we stopped.

For me, I'm a pretty data-driven person and have been interested by the Gottmans' work, so I sought out an MC who was Gottman certified, plus happened to be the only person in town with formal discernment training which is our first (and perhaps only) order of business. I like that they have a process and so far at least this guy isn't just letting us complain at each other. Maybe that, or another specific training background could help you decide who you want? You could also be open about what didn't work for you last time, so that the MC knows to put a stop to the endless complaining if it happens.

[AlisonUK]

I think you're right, May. The first time we went to MC was a total wash out - and that basically is on me, as I forced him to go so of course what did I expect? I was hoping that the MC would tell him his behaviour was unacceptable, and that he'd stop doing it. This is immature and not really how MC works. I think I needed to find the courage to say to him myself 'this behaviour is unacceptable' and to stop accepting it - and I am in that place now. He is also - not always, but more often - capable of some self-reflection though if I am honest I am still not confident he's capable of looking at his own motivations in a way that counselling would demand.

We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about his EA: I think I posted about it on here. I told him what hurt me the most was how much he chased her when I felt so emotionally neglected during our marriage (and physically too, actually). I said I struggled not to take that personally and it still hurt. His response was to - in the name of full transparency - outline the various ways and means by which she chased him. There was a lot of detail that I did not know previously and to be honest, could have lived without knowing. It didn't feel that productive and it hurt to hear it and I didn't listen to all of it: I cut him off and asked him, 'why do you want to tell me this? why is me knowing this important to you?' - I suspect it was his ego talking, though he says he wanted to stop me feeling hurt that it was all one way. I suspect you understand where I'm coming from here, and he just really really really didn't. I don't know if that's a Mars or Venus thing or he's just spectacularly emotionally illiterate or what: but one of the reasons I dread MC is that while there has been some small signs of self-reflection, I don't think he has much of a capacity for it...

Of course you are welcome!

[Yail]

it has been winter for at least a thousand years.

You win best and truest line on the forum today.

I think I like your approach and thoughts on what to say for MC. Just making it clear you are there to identify solutions. That sounds good, and I don't think it invalidates your H's experience of wanting to go. That's all I would warn about - be careful you don't make him think you don't believe in it, or that you think it's dumb or a waste of time. That would be damaging, he needs to feel you hear him when he mentions this.

Last night I was talking with my BFF and she and her partner go to couples therapy somewhat regularly. They'll go every week a few times, then every other week, then maybe every third week. Then it tapers further for a while. Then there might be some maintenance sessions. Then maybe another time of needing to go back to full time.

For her it really helps in bringing them closer. But this is a long term priority for them. They're not reeling from an A. But I just wanted to say that for some with the right counselor MC really works. But both partners have to be invested.

I hear your hesitancy, and I think it's fine to start that way. But if this continues longer term you're going to have to also let your guard down and it won't be just talking about your H. I'm curious how this goes for you.

[may22]

Hi Alison,

You shared something on my thread that I've been thinking about and I wanted to bring it up here, if that is ok.

What I struggle with these days is in the way he acted towards me in the first few months after he moved out. He was messed up, irrational, abusive and just HORRIBLE. He seemed to seek me out solely to be mean to me. This is different from your story, I know. But what hurts today is the fact I know he's that type of man - that is a part of who he is - and that I'm the type of person who would tolerate it. I don't want to be that type of person and I don't want to be WITH that type of person. People are more complex than 'types' and I am working on letting go of resentments while having good boundaries and generally growing up a little and getting some kind of emotionally mature perspective on the situation. But I am hurt, and I am angry about it, and I am resentful, and I'm also humiliated that I took him back.

Here's my question for you, Alison. Put yourself back in your own shoes when he came back, and your decision process that brought you to him moving back in and you guys deciding to work on your R. IIRC, there wasn't a whole lot in your thread around that time and I'm curious about why you made that choice. I can imagine it was a whole plethora of things, from the kids to finances to still loving him or whatever... but what I want to say is... I bet your reasons were all valid. And nothing to be ashamed about.

I don't care so much what it might or might not take for you to forgive him for the way he treated you. What I want to know is: what would it take to forgive YOURSELF? Both for putting up with his behavior in the past, and for taking him back. The word you chose, "humiliated," has just really stuck with me. I know that feeling and the pit eating away in your stomach when you think about it. What would it take to let that feeling go? To say to past Alison-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. You were scared to lose your H, the father of your children, (whatever other reasons...) but you did what you thought was best and that is all you can ask for. And what a gift that you've come so far, you aren't that person any more, you won't accept that kind of behavior ever again in any R... and you may have never been able to step into that space if not for the hard lessons you learned and are still learning through this whole process.

I don't know if that's a Mars or Venus thing or he's just spectacularly emotionally illiterate or what: but one of the reasons I dread MC is that while there has been some small signs of self-reflection, I don't think he has much of a capacity for it...

That is absolutely one way to look at it... but if you are going to stay in an R with him, then it would be really helpful if he could exercise that little self-reflection muscle and start to understand how his words and actions have impacts on those around him who love him. And a good MC (and IC) is a solid way for this to happen. And... you'll never know if he *is* capable of self-reflection, or not being an a$$, or letting go of his own insecurities when parenting your eldest if you don't TRY. (See? Fence-testing cow.)

I hear your hesitancy, and I think it's fine to start that way. But if this continues longer term you're going to have to also let your guard down and it won't be just talking about your H. I'm curious how this goes for you.

I am with Yail on this, though I also think there is no need to rush into anything if you simply aren't ready and you have concerns that the downside part (him whining) will make it too difficult for you to take anything good out of the sessions, yet. Maybe get him to keep going to his IC as much as possible to get all that out of the way.

[AlisonUK]

I hear your hesitancy, and I think it's fine to start that way. But if this continues longer term you're going to have to also let your guard down and it won't be just talking about your H. I'm curious how this goes for you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I am guarded: incredibly guarded. We're not in an IHS sort of situation: we're involved with each other, sleep in the same bed, there's some affection and some good harmonious teamwork in some practical aspects of our lives. But there's not much in the way of emotional connection. And I know that a good portion of that is because I won't let him anywhere near my heart. I have excellent reasons for that, but I guess I can either carry on as I am, and feel sad about being in a cold, pretty dead but practically functioning marriage, or I can make changes on my side of things. I don't really understand why my H wants to go to MC: I have asked him and he said 'to work on our problems' but other than a litany of complaint, which I can't really bear to listen to any more (I have a boundary around this for my own sanity) I don't have any idea about what positive changes he wants and what he wants our future marriage to look like.

Here's my question for you, Alison. Put yourself back in your own shoes when he came back, and your decision process that brought you to him moving back in and you guys deciding to work on your R.

I remember that time: we'd had some really good time together over the late summer. He'd started to open up, be more affectionate and respectful, and I saw leaps and bounds improvement in his relationship with Eldest. He was starting to take some responsibility, and while I didn't see much in the way of contrition or remorse, I did see a marked change in how he treated me day to day. I think I convinced myself - perhaps wrongly - that he was acting out his 180s rather than verbally telling me that he was sorry. We had one conversation where he said very clearly that he wanted to come back, and what he wanted things to be like - and that evening I said I liked what he said, and it gave me hope, but I didn't feel ready. And he was upset: pretty cold and withdrawn and sulky in the days afterwards (or perhaps he was just hurt) and that scared me - I thought laying out a boundary like that and telling him the truth had driven away, so I relented immediately and said he could come back - and he moved back out of his flat and into the house with all his stuff that week. We didn't even discuss it in any depth with the children. I think I knew better - even at the time I had a sense that I felt pressured and that there were things I wanted to address and hear from him before R that hadn't happened, but I was still so scared of his anger, and of losing him entirely, and that coloured my actions more than good sense and wisdom did.

What I want to know is: what would it take to forgive YOURSELF? Both for putting up with his behavior in the past, and for taking him back. The word you chose, "humiliated," has just really stuck with me. I know that feeling and the pit eating away in your stomach when you think about it. What would it take to let that feeling go? To say to past Alison-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. You were scared to lose your H, the father of your children, (whatever other reasons...) but you did what you thought was best and that is all you can ask for. And what a gift that you've come so far, you aren't that person any more, you won't accept that kind of behavior ever again in any R... and you may have never been able to step into that space if not for the hard lessons you learned and are still learning through this whole process.

This is a really great question. It's made me cry a bit, reading it and thinking about it. But in a good way. You know, there are friends I have at work who knew that H moved out who don't know he has moved back yet - and he's been back nearly four months. I think I have a hard time forgiving myself both for what I tolerated and for letting him come back against my better judgement because I am so disappointed with our current marriage - it isn't what I expected or hoped for. I think I have changed a little, for the better, in some important ways - and there is and always will be more work to do. I can see the changes he's made - they are significant and it does mean our daily life is generally more peaceful. But there is a lot of distance between us because of my boundaries. I think they're healthy boundaries. I won't listen to him whine and blame and complain and whinge at me any more. I generally don't ask him for anything because - it's kind of weird it's so persistent - if I ask him for something, he seems to hear me criticising him and goes into full on defence mode. It's so boring and predictable and exhausting I just go my own way.

I'll give an example. Last night I asked if we could compare diaries to check some tricky logistical thing out with childcare that is cropping up this week. I literally just said, 'can we find five minutes to get our diaries out tonight so we can make sure someone is around for Youngest on Friday?' and he said 'it's not my fault - I haven't been the one stopping us talking about this,' in a really sulky teenage tone. I just left the room and went ahead and made my own arrangements, feeling pretty peeved and unsupported and a lot of contempt. It's like that almost constantly.

I guess if I could ask for something at MC I would say something like, 'I would like you to learn to ask me clearly for what you want, rather than just telling me all the time when something is not working for you. It would help me to understand what you need and what your ideal marriage would look like so we can work towards that. I would also like you to respond to any request from me with a clear yes or no - and no is fine - rather than the defensive responses that happen now. They're a barrier to communication and I would like to communicate better with you.'

What stops me is that I have said that, lots and lots of times, and because it is a request, it triggers defensiveness in him and I end up in some long discussion about his communication methods being my fault. And I have a boundary around listening to that.

Which I guess brings me back to self forgiveness. I do regret having him back in the house and moving to piecing before I was ready, and that's on me and not him. I do also need to forgive him - perhaps - for being truly incapable of giving me the type of marriage that I want. And I need to make decisions on that basis. Perhaps that's acceptance - I don't know.

There are some good things. I was out GAL last night. One of the things he's asked for is more evenings alone, so I've been out more or less every night this week (after I cook and do what's needed with the children, of course). I was imagining I'd be back around 10pm - it was just dinner with a friend - but I ended up not being back until 12.30 or so. No biggy. I don't drink, I was in my car and not wandering the streets at night, he knew where I was etc. He did call me at about 12 to ask if I was okay - he sounded genuinely worried - and that made me feel cared about as generally I feel pretty invisible to him and the thing he expresses he wants most is more time without me. That was very new and not something I have experienced from him in several years.

I am wondering how I could open up to him a bit more. And I am not sure anything I have to say to him about what is going on in my mind and heart would be positive for our relationship. If I was going to be really honest, I'd say, 'you totally broke my heart and I cried every day for months because you were so cruel. It felt like my life was disappearing and you'd been kidnapped by a stranger. I don't think I will ever every trust a person fully again - I don't know how I could ever feel truly safe with you again - after what has happened between us. I am so angry about how you project your own insecurities about being a low-achiever onto our children, in particular Eldest, and how your parenting is so harsh because you're acting out your issues rather than looking at yourself. I am weary and alone in our marriage because of your communication style, and I am so disappointed that what I hoped would happen when you came back has not happened. You hurt me more than I have ever been hurt in my life and I don't think you are ready to even contemplate that. The only way I can exist in the same house as you is to have emotional boundaries that mean you don't get anywhere near my heart, and the only thing I hear from you that is about what you want is more time alone, more separateness and more independence. That makes me wonder why you wanted to come back in the first place, and what is it about me that you desire. It is confusing.'

But if I spewed all that out at him, I can 100% guarantee it would have disastrous results. And I know my feelings, my hurt, my anger and resentment and my guardedness are my responsibility and my issue to deal with. It isn't fair to dump all that on his lap and expect him to repair it. It also isn't possible. So what I do to take care of myself is also incompatible with the marriage I'd like to have.

[may22]

Oh, Alison. This all feels really hard, and I'm just reading about it, not living it. I don't know that I can say anything that will really help. But I'll offer a few things that you can take or leave:

I'll give an example. Last night I asked if we could compare diaries to check some tricky logistical thing out with childcare that is cropping up this week. I literally just said, 'can we find five minutes to get our diaries out tonight so we can make sure someone is around for Youngest on Friday?' and he said 'it's not my fault - I haven't been the one stopping us talking about this,' in a really sulky teenage tone. I just left the room and went ahead and made my own arrangements, feeling pretty peeved and unsupported and a lot of contempt. It's like that almost constantly.

Oh god. I feel you on this. That must be so frustrating. No advice here, just wanted to say that.

Which I guess brings me back to self forgiveness. I do regret having him back in the house and moving to piecing before I was ready, and that's on me and not him.

Forgiving yourself for decisions you've made in the past is not going to happen overnight. But I do encourage you to give yourself a break on this. If you were your best friend, what would you say to yourself? I bet it wouldn't be "well, you made your own bed." I bet it would be more along the lines of "you made that choice of of hope and love and fear. None of those are bad things... I guess fear is not ideal but sometimes you just can't help that. It's OK. Let that feeling of regret go." Or whatever you might say to your friend-- say it to yourself, enough so that you will eventually believe it.

I also wonder as I read through this post if some of the feelings you are experiencing now aren't all that different from feelings that the WS experiences. It feels hopeless. He's incapable of giving you the M that you want. The only way you see forward is a cold, dead, but functioning M with him. [All things, incidentally, I know my H has felt in relation to our M.] And maybe you are seeing this all clearly and your choices are between figuring out how to stick it out and giving up the idea of what you had hoped your M could be, and leaving. Or. Maybe to consider... these feelings you have are totally natural, given everything that has happened, and you need to experience them. But. Maybe they'll pass too. Maybe one or two or three months from now, when spring starts in earnest, there will be a tiny tendril of hope that pokes up through the cold, hard ground. And then you might, just might, be ready to consider a different possible future with your H.

I will say this... maybe you aren't ready for MC right now. That is totally fair. If you aren't in a place where you can listen to your H complain without withdrawing further, then probably it isn't in the best interests of your R to put yourself in that situation. How do you explain that to H? Not sure... but I kind of feel like if you push yourself into that situation when you aren't ready, it might simply make things worse.

The other thing I think, though, is that the low-level resentment and anger from his dumb-a$$ comments like your example above, is also not a good thing. Figuring out a way to disconnect yourself from getting annoyed when he says garbage like that, or makes poor parenting choices, or whatever, is probably critical for you to heal. Do you have any thoughts on how you might pursue that as a goal?

And finally... you deserve and probably really, really need a break from him. Not just evenings out but like a week away. Can you do that? A yoga retreat, a solo trip to a new city, a hiking trip, or even just taking the kids to your parents' house and leaving him at home. I don't know. It feels to me like you just need a break, the feelings of wishing you had waited longer to let him move back in-- maybe space is what you're craving right now, and maybe there are other ways of getting that without him moving back out.

[AlisonUK]

These are very good suggestions, May. I've just had a meal out with a gaggle of girl friends. Really enjoyed myself. These are women I've met and grown close to over the past four years (before the blow up in my marriage) and while not all of them know the ins and outs of the whole sorry story, they know me. And they want me to know them. We had a couple of hours in a pizza bar chatting and talking and laughing and commiserating: there was a little small talk, but mainly no superficial stuff, no judgement, no false-sympathy, a hard truth now and again and lots of realness. I don't think this is a women thing: I don't really socialise with men in the same way, but I do have some male friends who I have that type of honest real connection with. I take the best parts of myself into those relationships - though those friends are also aware of all my flaws too, and aren't engaged in a project of trying to fix them or improve me. I guess I am talking about feeling valued and accepted. I came home and H is happy enough and kids are happy and I will spend some special time with Eldest tonight as I've been out a lot recently and I miss my little chats with him about his school work and his friendship groups. I feel him getting a little more distant from me - as is appropriate for a boy his age - but I want to take advantage of the connection we have before he grows out of it entirely! It's all very good and I have a lot to be grateful for. And I'd like to know how to bring that better, happier, more honest and interesting and okay-with-being-real-and-vulnerable self to my marriage, but I don't know how. I suspect you are right when you say starting with space and self forgiveness is the key. Thank you!