Cross countries separation EU

[Pack_19]

hi Sandi! thanks a lot for coming back, as always! I hope you are fully recovered now! I keep coming back and forth back and forth. This is a nightmare.

I have stopped biting my nails, I am in much better shape and I practice active listening with anyone I talk to but then these days come and I end up wanting to call her when I am back in Spain to see the children just to test the waters. I have never felt so alone in my entire life. I am in a country I came for work and with my family, in a city where every corner reminds me of them and I have no strong support here. I spent 2 hours yesterday at home watching old top gear episodes (my fav tv show) and that felt ok but I quickly trigger alarms in my head saying no escape mechanisms as TV Paco! Get out and get a life.

Being at home is the worst feeling of loneliness ever, I am there and my head is playing back the words she said during our domestic separation: "this is our home only because YOU wanted to"...

God knows I dont want to go back to our old R because it was rotting with time and lack of dedication but I never thought she would leave and take our children. When I think is been 3 months since she left I calm down but them I think it has been 6 since she told me it was over and then I think "how on earth is she not more calm down and talks to me about this hell we are living??"

I know I am here for the long run and it has been my decision to try and revert her decision the only way it is possible but I am starting to believe that for my W it will be very easy to be happy without me given the way she has kicked anything that reminds her of me out of her life while I am the stupid one that gets stuck behind. I am no victim, make no mistake there, I just value our family more than anything now and it shocks me she does not the same.

thanks a lot for all your help! hugs Sandi!

[Pack_19]

hi all!

things are back to space and time with W. I talked to her last Saturday because our S6 is still a bit sick with this super resilient flu that is taking over Spain and she told me she is not ignoring me but the thing is that I do not listen to her, I do not know what she means. I assured her I was making my best to listen to every word that comes from her given the very little contact we have and resumed to GAL and LRT thinking about my life without her.

The legal procedure is officially on hold but we have 60 days now to present an alternative to the separation agreement that has been officially rejected. I know this is only my selfish and unrealistic goal but I would like to, at some point and as one of those say it only once things, tell her my wish is for us to at some point work on the R and stop the legal procedure even if I have to provide her with the pension we agreed. Would that make me a doormat or a sincere husband who has not given up on this M? Is it something stupid to do? if not, how would you approach it?

Again, after the encouragement I got from this board I am not afraid of being divorced, heck I am not afraid of being alone either, I just want to be 100% involved in the lives of my children but I want to pass on that message to my W. I know, she already knows I am ready to work on our M. God this situation is so twisted, I want to be attractive again, I want to be happy on my own and heal emotionally but if by any miracle there is a chance for us to R in the future I also want it to be asap. No, I am not in a rush, I have nothing better to do now than to get rid of my flaws and being happy but I want to be with my children again. I guess if someone is going to understand the mess in my head now is you guys. I want to be attractive again, my very finest and best version, but I want my children to have me there and no is not entirely on my hands because I have a W in between who hates me now and seems to thing the children is something that she exclusively cares about.

thanks a lot for your help, when I finish reading Light her fire I am going to pick up DR again for a 4th time, I need more strength and support to keep going alone and accepting my M is over as I knew it (which is good believe me, M 2.0 is the goal now!)

[sandi2]

I have stopped biting my nails, I am in much better shape and I practice active listening with anyone I talk to but then these days come and I end up wanting to call her when I am back in Spain to see the children just to test the waters.

Remember when I talked to you about using your children as an avenue to get closer to your W? This is an example of what I meant. As the LBH, you shouldn't test the waters, b/c it is a form of pursuit and your W feels the pressure.

I think "how on earth is she not more calm down and talks to me about this hell we are living??"

Do you mean you want her to give you some type of explanation for why she left you? She may never speak in terms that you understand or accept. I get the sense that she feels she told you, but you did not listen. I've read stories from LBH's who needed an explanation, but never received it. If your W stops feeling pressure from you, maybe she will talk about why she left.

things are back to space and time with W. I talked to her last Saturday because our S6 is still a bit sick with this super resilient flu that is taking over Spain and she told me she is not ignoring me but the thing is that I do not listen to her, I do not know what she means.

Perhaps you lead the conversation around to the relationship. Although you called about your sick child, maybe you directed the talk toward you & her. Only you know, but if this is happening whenever you contact her........you must stop asking questions or making remarks about it.

The legal procedure is officially on hold but we have 60 days now to present an alternative to the separation agreement that has been officially rejected. I know this is only my selfish and unrealistic goal but I would like to, at some point and as one of those say it only once things, tell her my wish is for us to at some point work on the R and stop the legal procedure even if I have to provide her with the pension we agreed. Would that make me a doormat or a sincere husband who has not given up on this M? Is it something stupid to do? if not, how would you approach it?

No, please don't do that ^^^^^^^. Listen Pack, your W doesn't feel that she is being heard. So, she doesn't want to hear you proclaim your desire to work on the R. She doesn't want to hear any more about how you feel or what you want. Why? B/c she is very angry and she'll see this tactic as further emotional pressure. She might play you and accept the financial terms, but she will see you as a weak, desperate man.......and she will build higher walls between you. It's not the route to take. I've already shared my thoughts on how to approach this situation.

Again, after the encouragement I got from this board I am not afraid of being divorced, heck I am not afraid of being alone either, I just want to be 100% involved in the lives of my children but I want to pass on that message to my W.

No, Pack. Your motivation is wrong. If it was all about you being involved with your children, then your love for them would be your motivation. You wouldn't have a need to pass that message to your W. It's the same about showing the spouse 180's. Some newcomers aren't too interested in making personal changes for their own good, b/c they simply want their spouse to see the change. I understand that viewpoint, but it doesn't last when the motivation is all about persuading the spouse back into the M.

Here's what I've gathered about your MR. You relied on your words to influence her into doing what you wanted her to do. In spite of the advice, you've continued to use your words to force her to go back into the M. Maybe you have not seen it as "force", but it is felt as if is force. Even saying something in a nice way can be received as pressure, if you continue saying it time after time. It's like a man asking a woman for a date, although she has continued to refuse him. After a while, she dreads hearing his voice. If the other person will not listen or receive your words, it can cause more problems than if you gave space and time. After an unsuccessful discussion, I think you tell yourself that it's back to space and time.....until you have another moment where you just have to contact her again.

God this situation is so twisted, I want to be attractive again, I want to be happy on my own and heal emotionally but if by any miracle there is a chance for us to R in the future I also want it to be asap.

Everyone wants what they want ASAP. Life doesn't work that way. You don't have to live with your W and/or kids to become attractive again. Use this time to make changes in you (not the marriage).

thanks a lot for your help, when I finish reading Light her fire I am going to pick up DR again for a 4th time, I need more strength and support to keep going alone and accepting my M is over as I knew it (which is good believe me, M 2.0 is the goal now!)

The 4th time? You should have it about memorized by now. Excluding DR, there are a lot of books written about how to spice up the MR. There are many great books that show us where we failed to apply certain things our spouse may have needed. These books can fire up our enthusiasm and we can't wait to try the things the book suggested. No matter how great the book, if the timing is wrong........the application is usually unsuccessful. Timing is everything. Your MR is in crisis, so some information will need to be stored in your brain until the time is right. Use this time to store up lots of information, just bear in mind how important right timing is to application.

[Pack_19]

Hi Sandi!
Thanks a lot for your reply again. I do not know what is wrong with me seriously. My W did mention in many occasions that we argued a lot and she was not happy and I retreated. I was an idiot but I also never heard hey thanks a lot for working hard for our family, we had our first son when we were 22 and I was the only working. I was talking to a good friend the other day and she said, I know you have made mistakes, but you have also done many good things, see the whole picture, go to Madrid and be happy there.

I dont know if I deserve what is happening but crying at home every other day is not the best place to be when you want to be attractive again. It's been 6 months, seriously, is it just better to move on and leave the door open? I am much better when I am far and I do not care about what she is doing, I come close try to see her and I get contempt and ignorance. Why would a woman marry you and give you 2 children to now behave like this?

I am having a bad day and I guess I need to vent out. Sandi, help me please. I now you have said it before and I have read my thread 3 times already now. how do I stop worrying about time? do I need to accept all is over and this is dead unless she might choose to save it? I am changing many things in me, for me and my future. As my friend said, Paco your marriage is in crisis, it is a very ugly one, but it is crisis, learn to think about other things.

What do I do about the separation? fight for a new agreement with lower pension or ask for shared custody, my God I have 1 month in the new job to test how often I can be here with them.

Sandi, I know you are harsh because you want me to succeed, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I am not a bad man, I have no bad habits or dependencies and I just want my family back. Maybe I need a new 180, look ahead and say, there is no time in my life for those who dont want to be there.

why is this so incredibly hard and why does she put all that space between us, we dont even see each other to exchange the children, is all done via the school. It is just sad... Thank you all, I guess beyond my PIES, I need to change many things towards my W as well.

[sandi2]

My W did mention in many occasions that we argued a lot and she was not happy and I retreated. I was an idiot but I also never heard hey thanks a lot for working hard for our family, we had our first son when we were 22 and I was the only working.

I don't remember thanking my H for working hard (being the provider) for our family, b/c the way he and I were raised......it was expected that the man/husband/father makes income for his family. To be fair, the only time I was not in the workforce, was when I took time off to have babies. I never remember him thanking me for going back to work in order to have sufficient income for our family. Neither of us were looking for thanks, b/c we just had to do what we could to survive and raise our family. I've since learned that one of the top needs for a man is to be appreciated. He wants his W to express to him how much she appreciates him for all that he does for her and their family. Maybe your young W was somewhat like me in my early MR. Maybe she did not realize she should show you appreciation.....or perhaps, she was trying to show her appreciation in ways you did not recognize. Maybe she just thought you both were doing what was expected for your roles. I'm not saying it was right, b/c both men and women like to feel appreciated, whether they work long hours away from home, or take care of the children & home. Currently you are suffering and your thoughts reflect on the past. If only foresight was clear as hindsight, yes? Pack, learn from past mistakes, and don't repeat them. We can't change the past, only do better in the present.

I dont know if I deserve what is happening but crying at home every other day is not the best place to be when you want to be attractive again.

I don't see divorce as something anyone "deserves". It is what it is! It doesn't mean everything is your fault, or that you deserve what is happening. Recognize your mistakes, and be smarter going forward.

You have been stuck in your style of thinking. You don't apply the advice, b/c you won't let go of your old style where you believe you can verbally persuade your W to reconcile. Be honest, Pack, you thought with enough pursuit, she would break under the emotional pressure and come back. You knew of no other way to get her back, and that's why you continued trying to talk to her about the relationship. As long as you hold to the belief that she can be talked back into the MR.......you will not digest these books you are reading. That's why you are reading DR four times, and it has not stuck. You won't let go of believing your way is the only way that works. Nobody can get through to you, and they can't help you, until you give up your familiar pattern. It is a big stumbling block for you. The entire you may be reading a different way to deal with the situation, you have that block that wants you to do what you've always done with a woman...........pursue, pressure, keep pursuing. Am I making sense? I can't help you if I am not speaking in a way that is understood.

It's been 6 months, seriously, is it just better to move on and leave the door open?

Frankly, I think that's what you will have to do, in order to save your sanity and have hope that you can be happy again.

I am much better when I am far and I do not care about what she is doing, I come close try to see her and I get contempt and ignorance.

Why do you think we tell you to detach? What have I told you over & over? Stop trying to talk to her! The relationship with her is over. Now, it is about your children. Get a visitation schedule and stop trying to get her to take walks with you, or having long conversations that eventually lead to R talk. There is no sense in all this contact with her. She is angry. You are angry! Stop getting close!

Why would a woman marry you and give you 2 children to now behave like this?

She was a different woman back then. She changed. It is fact that you cannot control. She does not want your control anywhere in her life.

I am having a bad day and I guess I need to vent out. Sandi, help me please. I now you have said it before and I have read my thread 3 times already now. how do I stop worrying about time? do I need to accept all is over and this is dead unless she might choose to save it?

The marriage relationship you had with her is over. (((hugs))) Who knows what the distant future holds? The message I have tried to give you is that you cannot control how she feels, and you haven't accepted that you can't persuade her. I believe she has to be completely free of you. Free of your presence, free of hearing your voice, free of seeing you, free of your overbearing pressure. There has to be freedom, space, and time......for her, and for you. Each of you need to heal separately. Let go of her. Mourn the loss of the M. It's been six months and you aren't better b/c you didn't let her go. I hope you will, now. It isn't what you wanted, and I understand. But you can't control it. Therefore, you have to get healthy again. You have to find you who you are as a man, and that means you do it on your own...........apart from her. I think it needs to be apart from a new woman, b/c you don't have to have a woman to define you. I see too many LBH's jump right into a rebound relationship with a new girlfriend, and he's not even over his W. Once you are single, I'm not suggesting you never go out and date again. I'm just saying you need to heal and find yourself before getting into another romantic relationship.

I am changing many things in me, for me and my future. As my friend said, Paco your marriage is in crisis, it is a very ugly one, but it is crisis, learn to think about other things.

I agree. You may never have another time in your life where you are this free to enjoy the things you love to do, without having to answer to a wife. It's all in how you look at it. I've suffered crisis, and I've suffered loss. I've learned that we are seldom "delivered" from the fallout, emotional pain, etc. We have to feel the hurt, and work our way through it. We have to make the daily choice to do things we don't feel like doing, but know it will get us from the current hell we are experiencing, to a tolerable place........maybe even experience great happiness again. Will it ever be the same way as in the past? I don't think so, b/c life is ever changing, but that doesn't mean it can become wonderful again. The living have to keep on living, and you are still alive, Pack. Hurting, but still alive. You will come through the fire that's burning a hole in your heart.

What do I do about the separation? fight for a new agreement with lower pension or ask for shared custody, my God I have 1 month in the new job to test how often I can be here with them.

I've already expressed what I thought you should do. Don't fight her from getting a separation or divorce, if that's what she wants. Fight for equal custody and equal visitation with the kids. I won't get into the subject of grandparents, b/c I've already talked about it. Their time comes out of the parent's time. Listen to the legal advice of your lawyer. You have fought this more like you were fighting the separation/divorce. Just do what is fair about the kids, and if she is too greedy, then let your lawyer fight your case in court.

Sandi, I know you are harsh because you want me to succeed, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I am not a bad man, I have no bad habits or dependencies and I just want my family back. Maybe I need a new 180, look ahead and say, there is no time in my life for those who dont want to be there.

Like I previously said, before there can be a future MR with her.........you have to let go of her. The old MR is over. You and your kids are your family now. You have to stop mentally including her, when you consider "family". I know, I sound crazy, but I don't know how to put it into better terms. It's not what you wanted, and it's not the best........but it is all you can do at this time. You must adapt to her not being part of your life, so that you can heal. Even if she moved back with you today......do you think everything would be fine? Do you think you would instantly be healed? No! It just doesn't work that way. She must have a long time to find herself, and it needs to be without you. The more you try to be in her life at this time, the less likely she will ever get over her anger......and the less chance the two of you will even be on friendly terms in the distant future. Currently, don't even try to be friends. Okay? It won't work, and you need to cut all emotional ties with her. Just keep it civil, and business.

Well, I feel like I am going in circles repeating myself. Saying too much, isn't necessarily saying it clearly.

((hugs))

[Pack_19]

hi Sandi!

I am back, well the reason why you feel like going in circles is because I am as stubborn as a brick with another brick stuck to it! I get your message, believe me I do, and you cannot imagine how much it means to me (((hugs))).

I dont think I will persuade her with words and pressure is more like I have behaved like a trader in the sense of hey, I am changing, why wont you give me an opportunity? I have read DR but my understanding was completely wrong. I told myself, if I can change, if I can get rid of the things she has complaint over and over and be the most loving, independent and strong man, I will have a chance with her. I was focusing my changes on getting her back, over and over again.

Last weekend I was in Spain, it was the 10 year anniversary from our first serious date, when I took her to some roman ruins close to our city and then out for lunch. I wanted to see her and tell her about marriage 2.0 on the ruins on the one I shattered. After my selfish me planned to see her, I tried to call her and guess what, yes I got more ignorance, contempt and fury. We spoke on the phone, again she told me to listen and not talk and she said she thought there was nothing to repair between us and that I was not giving her space. I went back to Germany broken because of some stupid expectations I built myself. I am constantly listening to the book Many separation survival on my phone and the first thing the author says is, have no expectations, a bad interaction is expected, a good one is a surprise not to get excited about.

On the good side I made her a valentine card from the kids where they wrote what a good mom she is, my S6 told me how much she liked it. I am glad I could give her something to make her happy, no ulterior motives. I bought animal costumes for both my S6 and S1 as well as myself and we plan to throw a party in the new house the day I move all the furniture. They are thrilled!

The fact that we are separated and she told me I was the problem and I had to change has made me hang up to our marriage for good. I keep making mistakes in my mindset and I keep trying to see her or meet her. I have made many mistakes, but I have also made changes in myself physically, emotionally and spiritually and I want to be happy with her if possible.

Starting today, there will be no more attempts to call her, meet her or talk to her, I will spend many days at home crying for the loss of my M but I deserve a woman who loves me for all I am and not a person who keeps telling me that I am harassing her. I will build a life for me and my children and I will exclude her from it, and I will be happy as a single man and I will become a man that I can look at the mirror to with pride. I will love my two sons above everything and more than anyone will ever do and I will be social, open and fun. My posts in this wall will go from being focused on her and her reaction to be focused on my healing and my changes.

I have started struggling to sleep 8 hours again, I think I put a lot of pressure on myself and getting a positive interaction with her, what an idiot I have become. I need to rewrite my DR goals, because many of them are focused on us going on a date or having a better relationship. I am happy in front of her and I try to avoid arguing but I dont need goals that help me detach.
Here is a first list:

> Learn to play piano
> Be more present with my children
> Promote at the new job
> Muscle up a little bit
> save up for the car I always wanted

Thanks a lot and as I always say please keep posting! your messages mean the world to me!

[sandi2]

I get your message, believe me I do, and you cannot imagine how much it means to me (((hugs))).

Thank you. I feel you either choose to do things your way, or you fail to trust the DB process.

Last weekend I was in Spain, it was the 10 year anniversary from our first serious date, when I took her to some roman ruins close to our city and then out for lunch. I wanted to see her and tell her about marriage 2.0 on the ruins on the one I shattered.

Please explain what part of Rule #5 do you not understand? How many times have we told you to stop trying to get her alone with you, and to stop talking to her about the relationship? Talking about Marriage 2.0 is simply giving yourself an excuse to continue doing the same pursuing behavior. The actions above would be heavy pressure, and adding a digit at the end does not change anything. You are still talking about having a MR. It is all in vain, until she wants to have a R with you.

After my selfish me planned to see her, I tried to call her and guess what, yes I got more ignorance, contempt and fury. We spoke on the phone, again she told me to listen and not talk and she said she thought there was nothing to repair between us and that I was not giving her space.

Exactly.

Starting today, there will be no more attempts to call her, meet her or talk to her, I will spend many days at home crying for the loss of my M but I deserve a woman who loves me for all I am and not a person who keeps telling me that I am harassing her. I will build a life for me and my children and I will exclude her from it, and I will be happy as a single man and I will become a man that I can look at the mirror to with pride. I will love my two sons above everything and more than anyone will ever do and I will be social, open and fun. My posts in this wall will go from being focused on her and her reaction to be focused on my healing and my changes.

Great! Just let me clarify something. It's true we can tell when a LBS truly begins to detach and stops focusing so much on the WAS. However, if you still struggle with the sitch, it's perfectly okay to talk to us about it. That's why you are here, to talk about whatever bothers you.

I think whenever she dashes your plans, the pain carries you into proclaiming what you will and won't do anymore. It's like an emotional outlet. Eventually, the longing for your W outweighs the recent pain she caused, and so you go into another detailed plan of how to create an opportunity to approach her about giving you another chance. ((hugs))

> Learn to play piano
> Be more present with my children
> Promote at the new job
> Muscle up a little bit
> save up for the car I always wanted

Okay, now decide the steps to take in order to achieve these goals.

[sandi2]

What's going on, Pack? Hope to hear from you soon.

[Pack_19]

hi Sandi, all!
Hope you are all safe with the covid situation. I have not written in a long time because of some big changes going on here. I finally moved back to Spain, I got a lot of paperwork closed in Germany, bills, banks, house and so on and on. I drove to Spain on what was a very fun road trip with a temporary reg plate that meant I got asked some questions when crossing borders!

Back in Spain I had to setup the new house, buy furniture for the kids bedroom and in parallel settle down in Madrid and the new office. I had only been there for a week when the covid took over Madrid and I was sent to work from home so I traveled to where my W and children live and I have been there since (at my secondary home, only getting out to go to the supermarket and taking the trash out!)

So since the covid situation started I have been busy trying to get some order at home, work and in my personal life. the closure of schools meant I got many days with my children at home and it has been crazy! They want out naturally but you cannot go out and there is a time when they need to burn down all that energy even if it is running inside the house. Great news is the little one (S1) started walking here with me and it was fantastic to be there now that I have all these doubts about my future and if I will ever manage to reconcile and get my family back. A part of me was broken thinking that my W was missing it but I cannot do more to show her the door is open.

I stopped talking about us, I am focusing on myself right now and getting better at exercising and reading some books now that we have all this free time in curfew. I did have a massive step back one day I wrote some accusative pm to my W and she used the next time we saw each other to tell me I was never going to fix this, she used sarcasm to express I had not been able to save the M in 10 years and she said I have been taught I can get anything I want and therefore my insistence in fixing our marriage. I apologized for the unfortunate messages and I realized how cold and distant she is from me. She denies it but I truly think she hates me, I feel it is sad she thinks my attitude is a mistake and she cannot see the effort I am putting to change my defects. There is nothing I can do there I guess.

No more progress with my lawyer, I need to see after the covid how I can schedule my life between Madrid and hometown and then ask for more custody according to that. I have sad days, I still cry in the shower and I re-read my thread here. As you can imagine all my friends and family are pushing me to move on, but I have a better plan. One that involves strength and suffering but one that will prepare me for the future, whatever that looks like for my family. I know she is not happy, one cannot be happy when you have so much hatred and blame against another person so I am giving her distance from me and I pray every night that she will see there is happiness and fulfillment in our family.

I am working now for a new certification I need at work to be able to promote and I am about to take back the piano course I purchased in Munich. I am also focused on saving money to pay back to my parents all the money they invested in refurbishing the house I have now here for me and the children. My goals have moved from how can I go back to our R when we started dating to how do I become the man I always wanted to be, a man that cannot be shaken by all the contempt and rejection from his W and at the same time the best father on earth. I am not even close to 50% emotionally healed, so I still need you guys. I never thought separation, divorce or whatever is it that I am living could take this long and be this hard. I hope you are all doing great, is fantastic to be back and with new goals.

hugs! ((()))

[sandi2]

It's really good to hear from you. I had a feeling you were very busy. You sound better.