WW dropped S bomb- part 2

[AnotherStander]

I suggested it to WW to gauge response and she showed me the part about our separate living quarters in the separation agreement.

Not one single person here said to talk to her about it. Every person who told you to take back the MBR said to DO IT, not talk about it. If you had moved back in, no law officer would tell you to leave your own MBR because of some silly scrap of paper that is not legally binding. They only told you to abide by the agreement because their job is to keep the peace and they saw that as the best way to do it. They are NOT there to interpret civil disputes, that's what judges are for.

At this point I would not try to take it back or do ANYTHING other than maintain the status quo UNTIL you talk to a lawyer. And do that like YESTERDAY! Her calling the cops is a huge, huge red flag, she has put you on notice that the War of the Roses has now begun. You cannot reason with her, you can't negotiate with her, you can't deal with her at all except through the filter of a lawyer.

I was shocked at her action. This is not the woman I married.

Doesn't shock me at all, have seen it several times. And you're right, she isn't who you married. She's a WW.

[hoosjim]

I was just wondering what "enforce it" means? Unless you granted he some sort of property right in the house (or right of possession to the MBR as in a lease-hold like if you were renting to someone), I can't imagine what "enforcement" would be. Police don't have any authority to settle arguments between spouses. If there is some sort of restraining order, they can enforce it, but this definitely does not sound like what that is (requires a judge/court)

"Enforcing" a contract means either a) damages or b) "specific performance" (as in a court "forces" you to uphold your part of the contract. As for (a), I can't imagine what her "damages" would be... she could still stay in the room, but you'd be there with her. As for (b), courts generally shy away from doing this... particularly if there are no "damages" involved. Further, property rights are complicated and governed by a completely different body of law, so a judge wouldn't be able to just kick you out of the house or MBR. Most likely, "enforcement" would just mean she didn't have to do whatever she promised you in the contract.(Did she promise you anything? because if not you'd have a contract void for failure of consideration.)

I have to admit I have a strong academic curiosity about this. If you'd be willing I wouldn't mind hearing more details or see your transcript here of some of the provisions.

Either way, DB-ing wise, sounds like you may finally be on the right track... that "contract" had your b***s in a vice. Talking to her about it first was a big time mistake.

And FWIW I agree 100% with everything AS posted just above. She's gone nuclear on you, dude.

[hoosjim]

Also, forgot to add this, and it is CRUCIAL, imo-- If she is going to be calling cops on you, etc., install a voice recording app on your phone IMMEDIATELY and have it on your home screen so you can quickly/easily turn it on. You should definitely record any convo you have or are going to have with her that is related to your R or to your Separation/Divorce (if that's what's going to happen) or to this ridiculous contract. You might just want to leave it "on" whenever she is around and a convo is likely... Otherwise it's just her word against yours, and I don't have to tell you what the climate is these days WRT men accused of abusing women.... pretty much guilty until proven innocent. Protect yourself!

Also, know that she is likely to be doing the same to you, and even if she is not you should be extremely careful to remain calm, cool and collected at ALL TIMES. You can and should of course be confident, but you should not raise your voice to her, or move threateningly towards her or gesticulate wildly or anything like that. Stick up for yourself, yes... you have every right to be in that house and in that bedroom... but do your best to keep your cool and do NOT lay a hand on her, even gently, for any reason. I remember in the heat of my W's and my climactic confrontation I went back to the house for some things and she tried to bar my way out the door as I was leaving because she "wanted to talk". I remained completely cool, said "we have nothing to talk about" and instead of removing her hand from the knob and pushing past her as I could have easily done (I am 5'11 and 180, she is about 5'3" and 115) I did an about face and went out the back door.

I repeat-- be careful, be surprised by nothing, protect yourself!

Praying for you, man!

[Drh2001]

Also, forgot to add this, and it is CRUCIAL, imo-- If she is going to be calling cops on you, etc., install a voice recording app on your phone IMMEDIATELY and have it on your home screen so you can quickly/easily turn it on. You should definitely record any convo you have or are going to have with her that is related to your R or to your Separation/Divorce (if that's what's going to happen) or to this ridiculous contract. You might just want to leave it "on" whenever she is around and a convo is likely... Otherwise it's just her word against yours, and I don't have to tell you what the climate is these days WRT men accused of abusing women.... pretty much guilty until proven innocent. Protect yourself!

Also, know that she is likely to be doing the same to you, and even if she is not you should be extremely careful to remain calm, cool and collected at ALL TIMES. You can and should of course be confident, but you should not raise your voice to her, or move threateningly towards her or gesticulate wildly or anything like that. Stick up for yourself, yes... you have every right to be in that house and in that bedroom... but do your best to keep your cool and do NOT lay a hand on her, even gently, for any reason. I remember in the heat of my W's and my climactic confrontation I went back to the house for some things and she tried to bar my way out the door as I was leaving because she "wanted to talk". I remained completely cool, said "we have nothing to talk about" and instead of removing her hand from the knob and pushing past her as I could have easily done (I am 5'11 and 180, she is about 5'3" and 115) I did an about face and went out the back door.

I repeat-- be careful, be surprised by nothing, protect yourself!

Praying for you, man!

Thanks hoosjim,


I will do this pronto. I really appreciate the advice. Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."

[Drh2001]

I was just wondering what "enforce it" means? Unless you granted he some sort of property right in the house (or right of possession to the MBR as in a lease-hold like if you were renting to someone), I can't imagine what "enforcement" would be. Police don't have any authority to settle arguments between spouses. If there is some sort of restraining order, they can enforce it, but this definitely does not sound like what that is (requires a judge/court)

"Enforcing" a contract means either a) damages or b) "specific performance" (as in a court "forces" you to uphold your part of the contract. As for (a), I can't imagine what her "damages" would be... she could still stay in the room, but you'd be there with her. As for (b), courts generally shy away from doing this... particularly if there are no "damages" involved. Further, property rights are complicated and governed by a completely different body of law, so a judge wouldn't be able to just kick you out of the house or MBR. Most likely, "enforcement" would just mean she didn't have to do whatever she promised you in the contract.(Did she promise you anything? because if not you'd have a contract void for failure of consideration.)

I have to admit I have a strong academic curiosity about this. If you'd be willing I wouldn't mind hearing more details or see your transcript here of some of the provisions.

Either way, DB-ing wise, sounds like you may finally be on the right track... that "contract" had your b***s in a vice. Talking to her about it first was a big time mistake.

And FWIW I agree 100% with everything AS posted just above. She's gone nuclear on you, dude.

Enforcement would mean remedy instead of suing for a financial sum as our finances are co-mingled. It was my hope that a judge would order her to meet her obligations but that contact is no more. I can post a little bit of the T&C later. I think it would come under contract law rather than matrimonial law but I don't know enough about this.

[AnotherStander]

Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."

Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.

[hoosjim]

in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

The nuances vary, but the "two party consent" states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.One of the notable nuances is that Massachusetts only bans "secret" recordings. Not sure how that is defined, but putting your spouse on notice that you will be recording future convos to protect yourself probably puts you within the bounds of the law. There are other exceptions-- at least one state has a spousal exemption, and there is also an "open conversation" exemption, maybe Illinois, and an exemption for in-person vice phone convos. Point is, in all states but the above 11 you can recorde ANY of your convos no matter who its with. In the 11 listed above, it is more restrictive and you would want to ask your lawyer. Personally, I'd do it anyway (You dont have to use it if you do and can always wipe it later) to protect yourself whether or not it is strictly legal. I'd much rather be on the bad end of an "unlawful recording" charge than the bad end of a "spousal battery" charge.

[Drh2001]

Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."

Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.

Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."

Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.

AnotherStander,

Thanks for the advice. I’ve already had a consult.

[Drh2001]

in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

The nuances vary, but the "two party consent" states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.One of the notable nuances is that Massachusetts only bans "secret" recordings. Not sure how that is defined, but putting your spouse on notice that you will be recording future convos to protect yourself probably puts you within the bounds of the law. There are other exceptions-- at least one state has a spousal exemption, and there is also an "open conversation" exemption, maybe Illinois, and an exemption for in-person vice phone convos. Point is, in all states but the above 11 you can recorde ANY of your convos no matter who its with. In the 11 listed above, it is more restrictive and you would want to ask your lawyer. Personally, I'd do it anyway (You dont have to use it if you do and can always wipe it later) to protect yourself whether or not it is strictly legal. I'd much rather be on the bad end of an "unlawful recording" charge than the bad end of a "spousal battery" charge.

Fortunately I’m in a one party consent state! Will be looking for a good Android recording app.

[Drh2001]

It’s been a while since I’ve posted but the atmosphere has calmed down a little.

WW is seeing OM. I don’t interfere or ask her where she is going or when she’ll be back. Our conversation is limited to the kids. She showed me a new dress she got and told me she got it for a good deal so I validated her on that.

It feels like she has become a stranger in my home. I can’t control her - only myself.

She talks about moving out at some point where in the beginning she was supposed to buy me out.

My kids are confused and my youngest said that this is the new normal.

I’m DB and consistent with 180s.