Learning how to stand, hope, & keep moving

[wayfarer]

Cardinal, I just want you to know I do come in here and check on you often. I just usually keep my mouth shut, because the MLC stuff with waywardness is just so much more messy than my little sitch. On top of that the years you guys have I can't compete with. Compared to most marriages on this entire forum we're barely married. It feels inadequate.

That being said May has reminded me regularly that this isn't a straight path. It's a winding journey. It's ok to feel rocked and like you're slipping. We are all there. And we're all here with you

[PLC]

Cardinal-we really are dealing with similar feelings. My H is not going out like yours is, but in the last week there seems to have been a power shift and I feel like I can’t even attempt a conversation, when just last Sunday, five days ago, he brought home food to share. What happened? I have no idea.
You mentioned zig zagging on your journey, and I think you have me along doing the same. Hang in there.

[may22]

Hi Cardinal,

Thinking of you. A couple questions I was wondering about:

I know the fact that he's still here is making it harder for me to move on as much as I could be by this point. If he needs to leave and go try out this new life for real, sometimes I feel like the sooner that happens, the better, in the long run, and I get frustrated. Probably me wanting to control this process again.

Do you want him to MO?

I mean, it is totally legit if you do. And also totally legit if you don't. One thing that some of the drama on my thread and this MC have helped me to clarify is what *I* want, right now. And I decided I wanted to stand. I don't want him to MO. And I stopped kind of the ping-ponging back and forth of "if he does this or that, I will want him to go" and was able to settle more into the present, uncomfortable as it may be, that I want him to stay even under the circumstances that he isn't presenting all the necessary prerequisites to really R and work on the MR. And I'm OK with that for now.

I guess I might encourage you to really think through what you want. For me, when I would bounce into the "well you better go now" feelings, it was all reactionary to something he had done or said. Whereas for say WF, it feels more like she really does think it best for him to go, it just isn't feasible right at this moment. It feels from reading your posts you might be a little bit more on the preferring him to stay side than move out? I guess it was just helpful for me to be asked straight up by the MC "do you want a D? No? then stop talking about it and reading about it." So I'm passing that same question onto you-- do you want him to MO? If not, then probably your best bet is to try to keep your zen weeding mindset about the annoyances with the record player and not being home and the inappropriate friendship. it is what it is, it isn't under your control, and you're a warrior for standing. Whereas if you do decide it is in your best interest for him to MO, then maybe you want to move that along so that you can start your healing process and he can have his fantasy bubble popped, and you're still a warrior. (Note that I'm not up to speed on all the MLC specific stuff, though I do think my H has some MLC characteristics, so I could be way off target. if so my apologies-- just know it all comes from a place of caring.)

Now I want to ask him about the records, just have a fun conversation with him about music. But I sense he wouldn't want a conversation the way he did a couple weeks ago. I feel the power shifting, and it's because I'm giving him that power in my mind. I will not engage him, won't do that dance. I need to get back to indifference. I'll continue to let him engage me, and if he doesn't want to do that for a while, fine.

Here's another way to take the power back... find someone else to have that conversation with. Reach out to a friend from college who you listened to records with and chat. Buy concert tickets with a friend and go. Continue to be kind to yourself and feed yourself for what YOU need right now, whether it is a conversation about music or an experience to share with a friend. I know you want those experiences and conversations with your H... but that may not be possible right now. But that isn't a reason not to have them.

HUGS.

[Gerda]

Cardinal, I have stopped into your thread now and again but don't know your story that well so I may be wrong to chime in. I really appreciated your hug the other day and wanted to chime in before I take my break for Lent.

If you ever have an hour to kill and want to go deep into a pit, read through my threads that started in 2014. It might help you to see what can happen when things don't get better, and you could compare it with Gordie's threads, of what happens when they do.

I just want to encourage you to realize that his moving out will not change anything about his MLC. In other words, pushing him to move out will not, I believe, "encourage" him to leave you. He left you already, in his heart. Getting him out is to give you some protection, some headspace, room to breathe, room to not notice what he is doing or wonder who he is with. If you can get him to leave, I highly encourage it. I don't think you have kids; I think that's the only reason to keep them home, if it provides a way for them to see H. That's why I was glad he stayed, I thought it was better for my kids to have their dad and I knew I could keep them safe if he wasn't taking them physically out of our home. But it wasn't good for them. He slept on the couch and we couldn't even have friends and family over all those years. Living with a depressed rageful man who is having an affair is not better for kids. In my case,his staying in-home spiraled horribly and my son ended up becoming suicidal and didn't start to come out of that depression until I finally got H to move out.

But what I discovered after he left is that I began to be me again.

He will be in MLC whether he lives with you or not. Kicking him out won't teach him anything. Letting him stay won't teach him anything. Living on your own is for you, to get your health back and your peace. Your H can come back to you, the real H to the real you, only when he is out of this tunnel, and where he lives while he is in the tunnel makes no difference to him. But it may make all the difference in the world for you. So that is my two cents with a big XO.

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

Ooh, a hunk of cake. Yummmmm.

Remember what they say about the way to a man’s heart.

Straight through the rib cage. Hmmm. That doesn’t seem to have much to do with cake. Might have that wrong. lol

I hadn't expected it to return for a while, since I'd felt so bad. I was so surprised to feel it surface again.

Earlier in the day, I could not have imagined feeling better again that night. Counterintuitive. I know there will be more days where I feel so, so low and have a hard time finding hope—it's just not a straight line, this journey. I needed a bit of physical and mental distraction in order to let my mind rest and work through things. In the end, it really was like I was challenging my beliefs and didn't realize that's what was happening. I can see myself going through cycles of this—I don't think all of those negative thoughts and feelings are gone for good yet, but now I know they can be replaced. I know they aren't beliefs.

That was a wonderful thing to read.

Yes, this is not a linear path. The journey zigs and zags, circles back, takes off in some other wild direction - eventually the trail smooths out and we look forward to the next curve and the unknown that awaits. The journey is you.

Challenge those beliefs and build them strong.

You just went through a pretty difficult rough patch, and emerged with hope and joy again. You know you are able to do it. You’ve seen yourself do it. Seeing is believing.

Sit quietly and answers do present themselves. I think your yard is going to be weed free and look immaculate.

I want to bring up something may touched on (Hi may).

Maybe we are told what we need to hear when we need to hear it, and it is all about staying the course and DBing away regardless of what your WS is doing around you.

Staying the course is the underlining message. And yes different suggestions are given at different times. It is also a bit of when one needs to hear it and when one is ready to hear it.

And then when you do relax and aren't freaking out anymore they say don't get your hopes up and why are you holding on so hard?

...don’t get your expectations up...

Don’t let anyone take away your hope. And don’t worry your hope, like beliefs, does change into something self-affirming and reinforcing; a slightly different version, yet the same intent.

cardinal, regarding wanting or wishing H would move out. May and Gerda have given good advice.

Yes, it’s frustrating have a teenage H running around playing his records in his room. And you’re right, too bad you don’t have a basement for I’m pretty sure H would be living down there.

Sit quietly and answers will present themselves. It’s how one can listen to their beliefs. Go weed the yard.

IMO, you do not want H to move out, you just feel like you do. To further that a bit, from someone whose W did move out rather spectacularly.

Is it easier or harder if the MLCer leaves? I don’t know. However, that’s not a question you even need to answer nor consider. The reason: Your regrets will be less if you don’t push them out. Do not manipulate the MLCers path. First it won’t work, and second you’ll feel responsible for whatever happens.

If you need him to move out for your mental health or your physical protection that’s different. Remember focus on you. Make decisions for you.

It’s not physical presence that consumes the LBS. We need to find peace in our mind and heart, for regardless of where our once loving spouse actually resides, they still live within us.

Whenever I imagine it could be more than friendship, it takes a lot of effort to push it out of my mind and refocus on anything else. I feel naive or dumb. I feel my self-confidence slipping. I feel myself expending too much energy on someone I don't know. Logically: it's not about me! It's not about her! It's about him. Emotionally: Why not me? How do you all do it? How do you stay so strong?

You are doing fine cardinal.

Lots of feelings stated that paragraph. That’s good. Acknowledge them. Accept them.

Focus on the rational, the logical part. You are correct it is about him - not you.

How do you all do it? How do you stay so strong?

Find indifference. Let go of your fear; it ties you down.

be gentle on yourself, this part hurts.

Our inner work takes time and reflection. One builds themselves piece by piece; beliefs and strengths. Don’t be afraid to be compassionate and indifferent.

The idea of more than friendship - yeah that’s a tough one to face. Lots of fear there. Lots of imagination running away with thoughts of what ifs over a possible event.

When my wife announced her affair I was crushed. My goodness that fragile male ego. I could not for the longest time assuage those feelings of worthlessness. She was into someone else, and he was “into” her. Not an attempt to be rude there - just assuring you it hurts just as much for a guy when he is replaced as well.

Our strength and worth doesn’t come from outside. Our spouse doesn’t define it. Their actions, words, behaviours cannot take it away - cannot destroy it.

Yes, at the beginning all seems lost. I wandered aimlessly lost in my dark fog; hurt and so terribly alone.

Then one day you start to rebuild yourself. Understand that you define you. We dust ourselves off and become better instead of bitter. It is a choice one makes, and in that choice one becomes stronger.

This is is most unwanted and wanted journey I’ve ever been forced upon.

Choose hope, understanding, and compassion. It leads to such good things.

DnJ

[PLC]

Hey Cardinal,
Just checking by to see how things are going, and you’re doing.
PLC

[cardinal]

Dear everyone, thank you so much for your wisdom, your words, your questions, your thoughts. I made it through the weekend!

PLC, thanks for checking on me. Wayfarer, I so appreciate you reading along, even if you don't have advice, though I feel like I already get so much from following along with your thread. I don't have kids—I often feel inadequate to chime in on threads because of that. But I think it's the mix of perspectives and experience that is helpful. May, you are so good about asking people the questions they need to hear and consider (Also, good to know I can actually neglect the sourdough starter for some time! You're moving me a step closer to ordering some...).

Do I want him to MO? No. That is not hard for me to answer. My "why won't he go" feelings are totally reactionary. It is exactly as you say, DnJ: I don't want him to move out, I just feel like I do. Gerda and peacetoday, thank you for offering your thoughts and support as well. It all comes back to me, again—focus on me. In the long run, MO or not probably doesn't matter much.

Find indifference. Let go of your fear; it ties you down.

I know one part of finding acceptance in how things are now is to let go of fear of how things may be. My mind protests: I chose to spend my life with this man, I still want that, etc, etc. But: it doesn't matter how much my mind protests or how much I love him or how much I don't want D or dread not having him in my life. As in, none of that wanting or not-wanting will affect what happens ten days from now or ten years. It is all energy better put toward other things. Yet I still wake up with a pit in my stomach some days full of love and longing and, yeah, still a tiny bit of disbelief. Maybe right now I can't let go of my fear. Maybe I should at least accept that. I'm afraid he'll walk out of my life and our time spent together will only be in memories. How do I let go of that fear? I can meet with L and get info and feel less afraid of D. But that fear... I think it drives every other one. It's hard enough to live with him and not have the interactions I'd like (though, from reading other threads, like Pommy's, I know it's just awful and hard in a different way when the WAS is, like, hanging out in the MBR like it means nothing, or, like WF's, when they seem to not be able to make up their minds!).

I did mute my fear for a bit this weekend, but I don't think that's the same as letting go. H was home for the entire evening and next day, the first time in two weeks, feeling sick I think. He seemed about as comfortable with me as before, same level of new-year thaw. Asked me if I needed anything at the store, brought me some candy to try, started tiny conversations.

Saturday night he started playing a record in his room, not super loud, but our house is so small, you can hear the music in pretty much every room anyway. I haven't been able to listen to anything much other than jazz or classical since BD. It makes me too sad. (This weekend, I caught the first part of a song on the radio, and the lyric was, "Find a love you can wait for...." It looks like I've done that!) At first, I felt like I wanted to scream. I'd already felt emotional and wasn't expecting him to be home. He still hadn't said, Hey, I got a record player! I wanted to cry. I tried to calm my feelings. I told myself he wasn't playing music to spite me or hurt me, he hadn't gotten the record player for that reason... I began to look at it as an opportunity to listen to music "with" him.

I'm usually home on Sundays, but I left for a few hours to have some fun away from the house and H. I bought a rose bush, planted it, felt good. Every time I plant something in the ground, I feel like I'm planting hope. This is the time of year I look forward to new growth on every plant, even the ones that appear to be dead. Worked in the yard, inside found H playing our old records, one of our favorites. Gut reaction: How can he listen to this stuff? How can it not bother him! I muted my memories and fear. I went by his room and said, Haven't heard this in a while! We talked about the records for a bit. I sang along, went back to what I'd been doing. He stayed around all day and made himself dinner for the first time in weeks, so I decided to get dressed up and go out. It was a nice day with him there.

So, yeah... I don't want him to move out. I want the record player to move in to the living room.

[cardinal]

(One other thing I forgot to add: it's kind of notable that H is listening to music without headphones, since he spent the first 6 months after BD with headphones on almost all the time when he was in the house with me (and even outside of the house, when I ran into him, he was wearing headphones). In that sense, he was sort of sharing the records with me, I suppose.)

[PLC]

Hi Cardinal!

Looks like you had a nice weekend. Good.

It’s funny, the little changes we see in our H’s that to someone on the outside of this “bubble” would think it is so insignificant. Yours is the music playing without headphones, mine is playing with the dogs and saying hi to me.

Things i took for granted, then did not experience for at least 7 months. I take these little steps as minor thaws still. Nothing to jump ahead and say things are going great, but they aren’t worse, either. My H actually sat in the room with me watching the tv for two whole hours yesterday. I was happy, but then, I also felt a little annoyed. I have gotten used to having the house basically to myself for almost ten months. It made me realize that as these thaws progress ( so slowly) I have really been GAL, learning and adjusting to counting on me only.

Keep planting things, hopefully your spring will bloom full of promise!

PLC

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

Well done with the music. I think 95% of all songs about love. My goodness those can tug on the heart.

Remaining calm, speaking to H, sing a long a bit, and then going back to what you were doing. That is great.

Yet I still wake up with a pit in my stomach some days full of love and longing and, yeah, still a tiny bit of disbelief.

Yes, this does take time. Be patient and stay the course. One day, and sooner than you feel, you wake up and realize you don’t feel that way. You realize you haven’t for quite a few mornings, and it has gone unnoticed.

The love and longing, the disbelief; all those emotions attenuate, lessen greatly. It’s so welcomed and unwelcome at the same time. Indifference is a strange place. Don’t worry your loving feelings do return later - just without all the unwanted triggers. And disbelief and shock do become acceptance.

I strangely missed that pit in my stomach feeling. In the weeks after I even tried to find it again; it’s interesting what we cling to. Letting go is difficult.

Maybe right now I can't let go of my fear. Maybe I should at least accept that. I'm afraid he'll walk out of my life and our time spent together will only be in memories. How do I let go of that fear?

It starts with exactly what you’re doing. Acknowledging where you are and where you are heading.

I do think you and I are cut of similar cloth; we both need a certain about of understanding before we can move forward, let go, accept, whatever it is we are doing.

Fear is that irrational grip from possible future events.

You are afraid of him walking out, your life and his, all that time, will exist only in memory. I lived, and live that.

Our lives, our past, only exists in memory.

Yes it does influence and affect the present and the future. However, the past is immutable. The present is here and now. And we look to the future.

How do you let go of that fear? You first recognize it. You fear a future where all that remains is your memories. There are many possibilities, the future is unknown, and that may or may not happen.

When something we fear happens, it becomes present, it becomes here and now. No longer a future possibility, since it is now an event, we deal with it as a concern.

Rationalize and logically uncouple your fear. You presently live a more or less roommate life. You’re still here. You’re doing great. Life is good.

Let go your past. Live the here and now. Embrace and look towards your unknown future. Your future, not H’s, not your’s and H’s - your future.

I do not know what your future holds. I do know it will not be like your past; you have grown and changed and will not accept things as they were. Your future is bright and better. And nothing to fear.

that fear... I think it drives every other one.

Very good. Think it. Rationalize it.

This fear does affect others doesn’t it?

Let go of control and fear, and much falls into place.

DnJ