Dealing with WAH who wants his cake and eat it

[may22]

I think the DB approach would be to deflect, deflect, deflect... so he says how are you feeling and you say that's a good question, I need to think about it or whatever, oh is that the timer going off?

Me? I am TERRIBLE at that and honestly haven't been doing it. I've been honest with my H all along when he asks. I do try to focus more on where *I* am than how his behavior is affecting me, but when he asks I do tell him. Maybe saying things like I feel confused, this is all really difficult for me, I'm just trying to focus on myself and what I need is both honest and OK from a DB perspective? I would be really careful to be sure you aren't saying anything that sounds pursuit-like, like you're acting from a place of fear, that you're blaming him or overly focusing on his actions rather than what is best for Pommy.

Giant grain of salt and all that. Probably better to let the vets weigh in. But that is where I am (and I know we have a lot of similarities in our sitches). Hugs.

[Pommy99]

I think the DB approach would be to deflect, deflect, deflect... so he says how are you feeling and you say that's a good question, I need to think about it or whatever, oh is that the timer going off?

Me? I am TERRIBLE at that and honestly haven't been doing it. I've been honest with my H all along when he asks. I do try to focus more on where *I* am than how his behavior is affecting me, but when he asks I do tell him. Maybe saying things like I feel confused, this is all really difficult for me, I'm just trying to focus on myself and what I need is both honest and OK from a DB perspective? I would be really careful to be sure you aren't saying anything that sounds pursuit-like, like you're acting from a place of fear, that you're blaming him or overly focusing on his actions rather than what is best for Pommy.

Giant grain of salt and all that. Probably better to let the vets weigh in. But that is where I am (and I know we have a lot of similarities in our sitches). Hugs.

Thank you May! He initiated further talks last night when he got back, same old.....confused, doesn’t know if the upheaval and upset is worth it, fear about leaving me and going into the unknown. Nothing in there about me or the M.

As expected, he asked how I’m feeling....I was frantically trying to recall your post (which I had read twice)...my mind was blank...what do I say....what do I say !! I think it managed to get out that the uncertainty is difficult, but that I’m trying to focus on me, and look after myself -get proper sleep, exercise, channel my energies into positive actions, spend a lot of time with the kids, focus on being more productive and organised at work, etc. (I didn’t once mention that I’d actually spent a lot of time staring at the ceiling, drunk wine rather than go to the gym, and eaten crisps for dinner as the thought of cooking was too exhausting, all whilst feeling like I wanted to crawl into a rabbit hole and never come out!! )

[may22]

hahaha, I have totally been there, wine over gym, crackers for dinner. (I ate popcorn for dinner last night.) Honestly I like being a little bit irresponsible like that.

Great job hanging in there. He is so confused. Sounds exactly where my H is. I will also say that any time H has caught me with my divorce book or looking at financial docs or whatever he freaks out too, so I would not be surprised if that is what is motivating this particular burst of ambivalence and pull back into the MR. I don't know what that means (except the classic pursuer/distancer dynamic, or he's scared you'll pull the plug and since he doesn't know he DOESN'T want that, he is trying to reconnect to slow you down) but I have definitely experienced the same thing.

A couple of thoughts-- one, I just posted this on someone else's thread, but I thought more about why I have been open about where I am with H in terms of my feelings and it is because I want to be true to myself. I'm kind of tired of editing everything I say because it may or may not push him in one or the other direction, or pretending to be happy when I'm not, or distant when I don't feel distant. Probably terrible advice but that is how I'm feeling right now and don't much care how H takes it.

Also, are there other things you could talk or connect about that don't involve your R? It might be helpful for both of you to connect and talk (practicing your validation) about things that aren't quite so painful and existential. Your kids? Work? Brexit? (or not) ... but that way you could still fulfill his obvious need to connect with you without heaping on the pain of what is going on right now.

[Pommy99]

May, I don’t know whether he is confused or whether it is fear of the unknown, which he does talk about. I think he knows what he wants but is fearful of acting it out. He says it would be easier if I felt the same way as him, then he wouldn’t have any pull back towards me. I asked if it would be easier if I walked away and he doesn’t believe that it is fair on me to have to make that call when he knows it’s not what I want. He talks about how he loves my company, the places we go, but then always brings it back round to that missing piece ( and I’m thinking jeez, do I need to be told every flipping day that you don’t find me sexually attractive and want to get that with someone else!). I know he is frustrated and emotionally exhausted at going round in circles with the same feelings and not being able to make a decision. My take is that he hasn’t wanted me for the last year, so why is there still doubt in his mind?

But we did discuss Where I’m at, and I mentioned that the IC has been challenging me to think long and hard about how he makes me feel. Does he make me feel good about myself; does he make me feel loved, desired, does he meet my needs emotionally, physically? The answer is ‘no’ every time, and I told him this. (But nothing he didn’t know already.) I guess I am in love with the man that was and not the man that is.

Like you, I tend to be genuine with my feelings. That doesn’t mean that I don’t pretend to be great when in fact I’m not, but I do tell him that I don’t want to break up, that I don’t feel ready to let the sun set on our marriage, because I feel there is a lot going for us. I just try not to plead/convince although I have been guilty of that many times but have completely stopped that recently and just tried to validate.

This week we had very little contact while he was in the city. Usually we text at least every couple of hours but it was different this week. And it hurt, but I stood my ground and never sent the first text. (By day 3 we got to 5pm with no contact - he sent the txt) . The nice thing was, by Weds evening, when he called we had a really good, fun talk, just about anything (not logistics, kids, R). I told him today that I had missed him this week and he said pensively ‘yeah, I missed you too’. For the last year he has never sent me a message or told me he has missed me - and he is away every single week for 3 days. But, as soon as he said he had missed me he put it down to familiarity. I’m not even thinking about what it may or may not signify, but it has felt different somehow this week.

He’s now gone to view a rental. He wasn’t sure about going as his head is all over the place, but he decided to go to see what emotions it invoked in him. I will let him tell me when he’s ready.

[AlisonUK]

Hello

I too have struggled with the sense that if I am not being open about my thoughts and feelings with my H, I am being dishonest. For a while, I was in such distress that I didn't really have a clear picture on what I wanted, why, what I was willing to change and what I was no longer willing to tolerate. That is all much clearer to me now, but I don't communicate it to H on a daily basis for a few reasons.

1. actions speak louder than words. In my experience living your boundaries - acting them out - is more effective than describing them, which can sound weak, whiny and irritating. I know when I hear myself doing it it is irritating so god knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a boundaries speech.
2. the gift of knowing my inner world - my thoughts and feelings, my hopes, my hurts and desires, my uncertainties and my goals - is something I bestow very carefully on a few close friends, to varying degrees. My H has not earned access to all parts of my inner world. I don't believe this is dishonest - I do not lie to him - but it is self protection and self respect.
3. one of my boundaries is that my relationships be reciprocal. I don't share my thoughts and feelings etc with someone who is closed or private with me (as is their right). At the moment what feels safe and healthy is to match my H's level of sharing. He will talk about his feelings now and again, but as it's generally whining and blame and I don't believe he is honest with himself or me about his vulnerabilities, I tend just to validate if I can, and make myself scarce when I can't.

[may22]

Fear of the unknown/ fear of D... yes, that is a huge thing with my H too. I might guess the biggest part of not being able to pull the trigger of actually leaving. Fear it won't work out with AP, fear of all the negatives of S/D, fear of hurting the children, me, etc. For me at least, I know that the romantic part of the love for me is zero percent of the equation. Me as friend is a factor, but not me as wife/lover. The missing piece that will never, ever come back.

I mean, I guess at least they're telling us what they think instead of just clamming up and walking. Seems easier if they would just do that, though. Right??

I also got a bit sick and tired of being told H could *never* imagine being sexually attracted to me, that he knew I was attractive rationally but just didn't feel like that for me. That he would see me sometimes out in a different context and think "oooh she's attractive" and then realize it was me and be like meh. That situations in which he used to find me sexy (like at work) now he's proud of me but not attracted to me. Not good on the old ego, though to be honest it doesn't bother me all that much because I know what I look like and I know I'm fortunate to look like I do. Anyway, he doesn't say that anymore since the last BD and we did have sex several times. (Now the complaint is that it isn't romantic and eye-lock ML. Nope, it isn't. And I wouldn't expect it to be, since he is in love with someone else.)

Anyway... the one thing I'm trying not to do (except for in MC/DC when asked specifically by the counselor) is say anything that sounds like I'm trying to convince him to make a certain choice. He needs to do what he needs to do on his own and anything that comes across as me trying to control him or convince him just isn't helpful. If he asks and is genuine (and like you, that usually comes after a good deal of outpouring from him, so it does feel reciprocal) I try my best to focus on how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking/scared of-- trying to stay in the moment too per the counselor, and not talk about my anxieties about the future-- and to be honest that seems to have really helped in our convos.

For my H, these R talks seem to be really important, to him talking about this stuff equals intimacy and closeness and so avoiding it like I did all fall felt to him like I was trying to suppress/ignore that this was happening and stick my head in the sand like an ostrich, hoping it would all go away. And again, whether it is helpful in the long run towards R or not, I feel like I'm being more honest and authentic to MYSELF, which I think is the most important part of all of this-- I just want to be able to look back and feel like I did all I could for my kids and was authentic and honest through all of it. Even if he's a big fat liar.

Not sure if this was helpful, but thinking of you.

[Pommy99]

Hello

I too have struggled with the sense that if I am not being open about my thoughts and feelings with my H, I am being dishonest. For a while, I was in such distress that I didn't really have a clear picture on what I wanted, why, what I was willing to change and what I was no longer willing to tolerate. That is all much clearer to me now, but I don't communicate it to H on a daily basis for a few reasons.

1. actions speak louder than words. In my experience living your boundaries - acting them out - is more effective than describing them, which can sound weak, whiny and irritating. I know when I hear myself doing it it is irritating so god knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a boundaries speech. .

Hi Alison, I am struggling a little with boundaries, in that I seem to be stuck in a thought pattern of wanting to change what I can’t control, and since I can’t do that, I then accept everything as it is. I really need to get to grips with this, and I know my IC will help me with this.

[AlisonUK]

Boundaries are super hard. I get them wrong a lot. I guess the trick is to realise they are about you, and not about other people. My H can do or feel or think exactly as he pleases. I can respond to that exactly how I please. If he speaks to me inappropriately, I tell him it's unacceptable then remove myself from the room without further comment. That's a boundary. What I used to do is cry and try to convince him he was being unreasonable, hurting me, damaging our relationship, wah wah wah - and that was control as it was aimed at changing his behaviour. He does speak to me a little better than he used to a lot more of the time, so in that sense perhaps it did change his behaviour - but my behaviour changed more, and changed first. My IC helped me a LOT with this.

[Pommy99]

I also got a bit sick and tired of being told H could *never* imagine being sexually attracted to me, that he knew I was attractive rationally but just didn't feel like that for me. That he would see me sometimes out in a different context and think "oooh she's attractive" and then realize it was me and be like meh. That situations in which he used to find me sexy (like at work) now he's proud of me but not attracted to me. Not good on the old ego, though to be honest it doesn't bother me all that much because I know what I look like and I know I'm fortunate to look like I do. Anyway, he doesn't say that anymore since the last BD and we did have sex several times. (Now the complaint is that it isn't romantic and eye-lock ML. Nope, it isn't. And I wouldn't expect it to be, since he is in love with someone else

H says that we have never ever had that eye-lock connection. It really makes me doubt whether there is anything worth saving, or if he is just rewriting history, and has a romanticised view of what passion in a long-term marriage with 2 children should have looked like. It does take two to tango and we both accept responsibility for our failings in meeting each other’s needs in that capacity.

The rental he saw yesterday was unsuitable, and on his return said that he wasn’t in a hurry to leave so didn’t need to take the first thing that came up....oh and also, not being sure what he even wanted to do. I must’ve just stared at him with a jaw-dropping look of exasperation as he replied “oh, you just want me to make a decision don’t you”. Of course I’m screaming inside my head for him to make a decision. It has been a year now that we have been in this limbo state, and he has not chosen me thus far. I have no idea what is going on with the EAP or if there has been any contact as I haven’t asked. I am inclined to think this may have cooled as from next month he will only be in the city once every two weeks - his choice, and also my IC suggested that the pull to her isn’t that great else he would’ve left by now. I know he’s not actively looking at rentals so he really is just wanting to live the status quo for the time being.

So limbo continues, but perhaps the new working pattern will help - 10 days at home and 4 away, rather than 4 home and 3 away. I do feel that our inability to reconnect has in part been caused by the pattern. Last summer we were having some good times together, and things seemed to be looking up....but as soon as we started to reconnect over the 4 days he was home, he’d be off again, hanging out with the OW, living the city life, and the disconnect would happen all over again, and we’d be back to square one.

[Pommy99]

This week has been another rollercoaster and today is the one year anniversary of our dinner date where we went out and discussed what to do about the state of our marriage. I had been thinking about moving out. Back then we loathed each other. That night we went out and had fun, we laughed (I cried), it was like one of our early dates, I saw the man I had married for the first time in years, I realised how much I loved him and didn’t want to break up. We went home and ended our 12 month spell with no intimacy, it carried on for 36 hrs. I naively thought we would be ok.

But not a lot changed, and 4 weeks later I discovered a very intense but short-lived EA. I was devastated, he pulled me back in, another 2 days of passion ensued. But the EA continued amidst a pack of lies. We spent the next few months trying to get back on track, trying to build connection and intimacy, but his feelings for me had gone. The EA went away but then came back again. In Dec, he decided he was leaving, the EA was in full swing as I since found out. And then he said he wasn’t sure. And then he said he was leaving again. And here we are in Feb and the leaving/not leaving is ongoing.

Last weekend he went to view a rental; 4 days later he sent me a message to say that he thought we should consider buying a second home as an investment for our future. The man that wants to leave me now wants to make a big financial commitment with me. The red flags were waving, it was surely a ploy to buy a home for him to move into? I suggested this, but no, he assured me that since viewing the rental, and being with me at the weekend, he was having nice feelings about us and got carried away with thinking about how we could,secure our future financially. He said he wasn’t ready to separate. That he has everything he wants with me but the passion is missing, but that in itself was not a valid reason to leave the marriage. He hadn’t realised the suggestion would upset me so much. I felt so broken, every time I seem to grab some control of my own, and think that I need to plan life without him, he throws in a curve ball. The rest of the week has been tense. He arrived home Thurs night, my barriers were up. I’d spent the 2 days since the suggestion of a 2nd property in a heap on the floor.

He wasn’t expecting me to be so tense and distant when he arrived home. I explained that his constant indecision was hard for me to deal with. He reacts to my tension by leaving me alone; I react to his being distant as uncaring and conclude that there is no way he thinks he has a future with me. We talked about this and he says we need to be authentic with each other, and not react to each other’s behaviours and moods. For me, being authentic is showing him affection, touching, kissing. All the anti-DB stuff. But at the same time, I am busy GAL, which I will continue to do.

Today we talked briefly about him wanting to leave. He said he doesn’t want to leave , that he’s trying to fix things, to do the right thing, and he thought I knew that. I feel pretty certain that the EA is now over, although I haven’t asked. I don’t know if this was on his terms, or if it was because he knew continued contact with the EA was a deal-breaker for me, or if he realised she wasn’t what he was looking for, or if he was worried about losing Plan B. Perhaps it’s all of those things.

I don’t know what “fixing things” means to him, I don’t know what “do the right thing” means. I don’t know why he thinks I know all this. Because DB says I should believe nothing he says.

I feel despondent because of the anniversary date. Tonight we are going out for dinner.