Through The Storm III

[may22]

Hi KG,

I can't help but think that what WW really needs is time and space on her own. I feel she is almost manic sometimes in her behaviors and responses to you, especially how hot she pursues when you pull back. I can only imagine that there must be another equally unhealthy dynamic going on between her and OW, though who knows what it looks like. She is a total ping pong ball and I have to say that if she's truly taking *herself* out of the game like this? Good for her.

As you said, of course no expectations, and maybe this is just a feint to get more time with OW for whatever reason. But why she's doing what she's doing and what she is doing is, as you say, totally out of your control. You do you and knowing in your heart you have done everything you can must feel really amazing and peaceful. And I almost don't want to say this because (a) what do I know and (b) doesn't matter anyway but it seems like a positive step, truly.

Also, F OW. That would enrage me too. Good for you in not expressing it but if you want to poke some holes in the eyeballs of a voodoo doll, I wouldn't blame you

xx May

[SamCal]

WW wants to do NC/limited contact. She claims this is NOT to be with OW. I handled it as calmly and rationally as I could. Water off a duck's back. I told her that I will respect what she wants, and that she knows my desires if anything changes for her. WW kept reiterating that she feels she has to pay some sort of penance for hurting me and that she also wants these things (NC) from OW. It's almost like she wants to put herself into self-imposed exile.

I don't know how I feel but I'm afraid it could all just be a reason so that she and OW can be together. I'm learning to let go either way. I know in my heart I cannot control what she does. In my heart, I have done everything I can do to save us. She has to want the same things.

The only time I got a tad bit emotional was when WW told me that OW said that she had never given me (the faithful wife) time to move on from our marriage. I don't know why, but it enraged me. I did not express the rage and kept that awful emo monster in her cage. I handled all of it pretty well - cried a little, told her my fear of when I respect her decision and don't respond to her that she will think I have given up on us. Silly fear, but valid. I hope you are all doing well and I will try and catch up tonight and tomorrow.

KG

Maybe WW does want that time and space alone for penance - my H is doing something similar (I don't believe there's an OW in my situation, but still). It's natural to feel fear, but you do know you've been clear. Did she give any kind of timeline?

I'd be enraged about what OW said, too. Any time anyone decides my feelings for me and then informs me what they are is bogus. Inside I think about that scene in Billy Madison where they light the poo on fire on that old man's porch and the old man tells his wife, "Don't tell me my business devil woman!" That echoes through my brain whenever that occurs for me, personally. It also helps me chill out and laugh about it.

I don't comment much, but I do read/keep up, and you're doing great - hang in there.

[KristinG]

May,

It does feel oddly peaceful. I have been working so hard to come to a place of understanding and peace. Don't get me wrong, I want to reconcile with my WW and spend the rest of my life with the person that I feel compliments me and my life (goals, hobbies, dreams, etc).

SamCal,

I almost died laughing with your analogy from Billy Madison. The whole scene played in my head as I read it. Thank you for an uplifting, enjoyable moment. No timeline. She just said that she thought that it would be good for her to be alone without either one of us. I made an off-handed joke that if she made a decision to come back to me that I expect some next-level romantic gesture. I'm talking "Say Anything" boombox-above-the-head, riding into the sunset on a lawn mower, fist in the air to an eighties ballad romance. She found this hysterical and endearing.

It's been really difficult to start this new journey. I wanted so desperately to text her goodnight and good morning. I made it through both of those, however, and I'm still standing. It's one moment at a time for me, but it will be ok. She has texted several small things throughout yesterday and once this morning. I did respond, but not until several hours later and just to answer her questions. I really want to respect what she expressed as her needs.

KG

[SamCal]

KG - glad that gave you a laugh! I can't tell you how many work emails I want to respond to with a GIF of that at times....alas, I'm just stuck cackling at my desk to myself.

My H never directly asked for NC/limited contact, just "space." He's isolated himself from everyone, not just me, and I wanted to make sure he knew he could call me if he needed to. He did recently say that he had wanted to, but felt it would have been hypocritical to contact me since he asked for space. Are the questions that W are texting you important? It's odd that she would just ask questions via text (even if they're little) after asking for space, but obviously I don't have all of the context so could be very incorrect.

I've had a hard time not texting goodnight to my H, too. (I do say to myself "Goodnight H I love you" aloud in bed alone which is less tragic than it sounds when I type it out). In the past several days he has dramatically increased his contact with me, and last night after a work dinner that involved a fair amount of alcohol, I'd tried to call him to tell him about this dinner. He didn't answer but wrote back that he was out w/ a male coworker and that his phone was about to die. I said nbd, nothing important (he knew I'd been at this dinner so could probably surmise that's what it was about), and then boldly said "goodnight [old not too romantic petname] [heart emoji]. I am suddenly fearing being friendzoned by my own H and felt that was a good way to gently be romantic without being pushy. He didn't respond, which is what I expected, but he did try to call me later in the night once he got home/charged his phone, but I was asleep. I am deciding to take his call as an implicit acceptance of my heart emoji LOL. In this story, I've entirely missed my point, which was, she probably misses it, too - and let her!

[KristinG]

SC it doesn't sound tragic when you type out "Goodnight H I love you". I am not ashamed to say I have done this almost every night. We're on day 4 of limited contact. It's been hard, but if it's what ww needs at this time, I am comfortable within myself to take the time apart as a gift.

My IC is really pushing my thinking. She is not afraid to call me out on my own stuff and challenges my perceptions. There is only thing I don't think I'm comfortable with. She keeps putting pressure on me to consider filing and moving on with my life. She even said that she doesn't know if it's possible to change the emotional atmosphere (sadness, anxiety, loneliness, instability) without filing for D. I have been clear with her about my intentions to stand and honest with her about my emotional state while doing so. I made an off-hand joke about feeling "used to" being exhausted all the time. She was passionate about the fact that we should never get used to feeling that way. She is on her third marriage (no judgement here, it's hard), but I am learning that even skilled therapists can come with some biased views on some issues.

I have been blasting through some tough tax things with work and it feels good to be so productive. May, how is the practice with validation and listening going in your life outside of H? I had a client tell me that "she could see why I was a manager because I'm such a good listener and let clients feel heard" today! Also, I forget if I have mentioned in a previous post, but I bought a ukulele! I have played guitar for years and was a full time musician (singer/songwriter) for several years in my twenties. Never played the ukulele, but thought it might be fun and relaxing for some "me" time.

Happy Friday DB Fam!

KG

[IronWill]

I have to say that Billy Madison quote made me crack up. Thank you for that moment of levity SC!!

SC it doesn't sound tragic when you type out "Goodnight H I love you". I am not ashamed to say I have done this almost every night. We're on day 4 of limited contact. It's been hard, but if it's what ww needs at this time, I am comfortable within myself to take the time apart as a gift.

Hey Kristin - I am on month 12 of limited/little contact. I know our situations are different, but I think it's important for you to know how long this may take. This isn't you, it is WW and her issues.

I say this not to scare you, but for you to realize how much of a marathon this might be.

My IC is really pushing my thinking. She is not afraid to call me out on my own stuff and challenges my perceptions. There is only thing I don't think I'm comfortable with. She keeps putting pressure on me to consider filing and moving on with my life. She even said that she doesn't know if it's possible to change the emotional atmosphere (sadness, anxiety, loneliness, instability) without filing for D. I have been clear with her about my intentions to stand and honest with her about my emotional state while doing so. I made an off-hand joke about feeling "used to" being exhausted all the time. She was passionate about the fact that we should never get used to feeling that way. She is on her third marriage (no judgement here, it's hard), but I am learning that even skilled therapists can come with some biased views on some issues.

I don't think IC is pressuring you - at least I hope she is not. If she is challenging your views, though, that is a good thing. I thought my IC was also pressuring me a while ago, then I realized she was challenging my views in an effort to get my feelings out into the open, so that I could see what I was truly feeling for myself and so that I could hear it for myself as I spoke.

Those of us who DB and give it their all absolutely do feel exhausted all the time. I am one hundred and fifty percent burnt out living IHS for a year with a WAS who has only pulled further and further away, with only a few spots of light in all that darkness. Giving WAW space in such a tiny house has proven to be my ultimate challenge in life. People are talking about it behind my back and in the open now. Everyone knows and I know they know. It is brutal and there is a high chance that it will not end in a Recon. That's just the nature of it.

It is counterintuitive- it is not supposed to be the accepted norm of "communication" and "talking it out" that will "fix" the R. It is letting the WAS go, letting them have the fantasy that they think will make them happy, and letting them discover if it is truly what they think will make them happy in life or not.

Letting go is the hardest thing to do.

But is there really anything else we can do?

[may22]

Hi KG,

On the IC-- I agree with IW that it is good to have someone who will challenge you-- you don't want an echo chamber of someone just validating you and you stay where you are. That being said, ICs are human too, so do keep her past in mind as part of her history and what she's bringing to the table. My exec coach who knows about the sitch was cheated on by her H and they've divorced. He was a total $hit in a lot of ways including financial and so her advice is very much protective, nothing wrong with filing for D right now, etc. Not that she's wrong, but she was clear at the end of our last conversation that she might be projecting some of her history into her advice to me and so I needed to take what worked for me and leave the rest. Just remember this is YOUR life and you don't have to do anything make anyone happy besides yourself at this point, least of all your IC.

Validation is fun! Not yet second nature to me-- I have to be conscious of it-- but I realize I do it a lot unconsciously with my friends already. Need to be more conscious of it with my kids and at work, especially when people are annoying me -- need to take a breath and remember I want to understand where they are.

Excellent about the ukulele-- that is on my list too! We have a couple at home (my daughter took lessons for awhile) and maybe I'll get it out this weekend.

Also, just wanted to say sounds like you're doing really well. Does it help to frame the LC as respecting the space she's asked for? I can imagine that it might-- more an act of love for her that feels better than in the past when you asked for NC and it was for your own protection/well being. If so, I would still want to be careful and thoughtful about what happens when she comes back. I would venture to say that this time is also helpful for you, and if she turns around too quickly before either she's really ready to reengage or you are, just being thoughtful and taking your time in responding is probably a good idea. (Here I go again thinking through various future scenarios that might or might not happen! I'm beginning to realize this is my MO. But there is nothing wrong with taking a beat and deciding things on your own timeline, not anyone else's.)

SC-- the Billy Madison quote is one of my faves too. I tell it to my H all the time when he gets preachy at me. (He gives it back too, so there's that.)

[unchien]

My IC is really pushing my thinking. She is not afraid to call me out on my own stuff and challenges my perceptions. There is only thing I don't think I'm comfortable with. She keeps putting pressure on me to consider filing and moving on with my life. She even said that she doesn't know if it's possible to change the emotional atmosphere (sadness, anxiety, loneliness, instability) without filing for D. I have been clear with her about my intentions to stand and honest with her about my emotional state while doing so. I made an off-hand joke about feeling "used to" being exhausted all the time. She was passionate about the fact that we should never get used to feeling that way. She is on her third marriage (no judgement here, it's hard), but I am learning that even skilled therapists can come with some biased views on some issues.

This would really annoy me too. I think there is a difference between IC and life coach but sometimes those lines are blurred especially when we do seek advice.

Have you considered mentioning this to her?

[KristinG]

Hey guys. First, to answer your questions about my IC - she is more pushing my lines of thinking rather than forcing an opinion. It's just hard hearing and trying to face those truths of things potentially not ending in reconciliation no matter how much you try to prepare for it.

As per usual, the LC ended. Also per usual, things have been fantastic and we have been enjoying spending time with each other. Laughing, talking, and generally enjoying life. She is starting to pull back and towards OW again. These are all things I have been through so many times it makes my head spin. Even though there is nothing physical happening between us and hasn't happened in over 6 months, it still hurts like h3ll to feel rejected when she pulls away from a hug and/or won't offer to give me a "pop" kiss goodbye. Just venting here because I've really been struggling with it.

I have tried very hard not pressuring and haven't initiated anything in a long time. But when she pulls back from the most basic of non-sexual physical touches it stings. This is compounded when she tells me that she feels frustrated that our intimacy is her biggest concern on why she can't get those "feelings" back for me. It makes me want to scream "HELLO... if you would simply kick your other lover to the curb maybe you would feel differently". OK KG... deep breath.. vent session over.

WW stated last week that she wanted to let me know she and AP were in contact once again and that it was just too hard to have NC. That she is still in love with her AP and just wishes those feelings would go away because she wants to have our marriage and our life. She also again encouraged me to find someone else - barf. I replied, "Don't think for a second that I haven't had plenty of opportunities presented to do just that, but I have CHOSEN not to go down that road." UGH these feelings are so hard to work through. At least I can say I kept a very level and calm attitude. I told her that I wish those things too, but that knowing this gives me a lot of things to think about.

Sorry for the burst vent session all. I am still working on patience. Sometimes I feel like I'm living May's H's fantasy life. WW moved out, has a nice house, new truck, anything she ever wanted. Me as a best friend, AP as a true love story, and all her dreams have come true (except for the tearing at her soul).

I'm still focused on controlling my emotions, appearing happy and upbeat, and having my own passions and enjoyable things. I've learned a few songs on my new uke and have continued to make plans with friends during my time off from work. I'm trying to focus on the positives, but wow life can feel difficult at times. I have my next appointment with IC on Wednesday and am looking forward to hearing her guidance on how to cope with the swings. I know in my heart that I should walk away, and I might do that one day, but I'm not ready to give it up. Feeling gloomy.

KG

[may22]

(((Kristin)))

Is your W in IC? Sounds like she needs it if not.

Here are a few ideas for you to take or leave. Of course what everyone is going to say on here (and I don't disagree) is that what you *should* do is walk, go NC, let her feel the actual loss of you for more than a week, and continue to focus on yourself while she either gets her $hit together or she doesn't... and if she does, then you can decide if you're interested in getting back together with her or not. You do know that the pursuer/distancer dynamic does has a real effect with her and I would question for her own long term-happiness (and yours, if you stay with her)-- what does that mean? Will she always be slightly dissatisfied and looking out there for what's next, what might be a little bit better or more fun/exciting/romantic than what she has? This is definitely something I worry about with my H if we stay together, that he'll always hold a candle for his fantasy life because he doesn't actually believe it was only ever a fantasy.

That being said, I think I posted on someone else's (wayfarer's?) page a week or two ago an excerpt from MWD's book on affair recovery, that says something along the lines of you aren't a doormat if you stand for your M, you are just fighting for your M in the most efficient way possible. I can dig it up for you if you want, and/or if you haven't read that book it might be helpful, at least the chapter on what to do if your WS isn't interested in working on the MR right now. I think the basics are do what you're doing until you can't anymore, and a lot of what is focused on here on the boards is the LRT, what you do when nothing else is working and/or you can't continue for your own sanity in the current situation.

OK. But if you're not ready to walk right now, what are some other things you can do in the meantime (besides the GALing which you are doing so amazingly?). Note, these are not going to be DB suggestions and I also don't mean for you to necessarily do any of them... but just from the perspective of what would it take to shake things up for one or both of you. Maybe the outcome will be that you'll be more ready to walk, and that might be exactly what you need.

Can you talk to a counselor that specializes in discernment? What mine told me he normally does in these situations (it just isn't working that way with us for whatever reason, he seems to feel like we're currently a mix of DC/MC) is to meet with both together and then with each of you 1-1 to help come to a decision about whether or not to work on the M. That might be helpful for you both as I can't imagine the current status is fun for anyone, even your W (though she's living my H's dream life right now).

What about an intensive weekend? I know MWD does them and assume they're crazy expensive, but there are a number of options out there that you can look at. if she is serious about wanting to figure out how to let AP go and recommit to the M, she has got to take some steps herself, but perhaps spending some significant time together talking through these issues with an experienced counselor might help and force her to ask the hard questions of herself... or for you to hear/see that she (perhaps) is nowhere near where you would want her to be for you to really see a future together with the person she is right now.

On the intimacy front, it seems as though she needs to see you in a different lens. I don't know how to accomplish that but I would guess it starts with you seeing YOURSELF through that lens and projecting that sexy self-confidence whether she's around or not. Maybe letting go of all forms of physical pursuit or touch until she actually initiates is a good idea at least for now. Don't give her the opportunity to pull away from a hug. It just makes you both feel badly.

Thanks for updating us and for sharing. I know this is so tough. Hang in there.