Moving forward 7

[AlisonUK]

Hi Alison,

I've been reading many stories on here, and i've just completed yours. Wow. And do you know what, i read alot of it as if it was my W posting! This is revealing to me as i'm recognising my part in being the LBS, and the traits i've displayed in the past. Although i would hope not to the extent you have put up with. Anyway my point is, i have been reading and re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and so, so much resonates.

What i have gleaned from your posts is that your H is displaying a huge amount of Nice Guy Syndrome traits, which conversely aren't actually that 'Nice' at all. He has issued you with covert contracts, that in his head make sense, but you are completely unaware of. So when he reacts negatively towards you its usually because of an unmet need, that you (rather annoyingly to H) should have known about!

I would recommend you have a read, as a lot of it may make sense to you, and ultimately if your H is willing - he should definitely have a read too.

Hello Chaz! Nice to meet you on here. I 100% agree with you. I actually read NMMNG a few months ago and found it very useful for myself: I know I've used people-pleasing and pacifying behaviour to try to control my H's moods and behaviour then got resentful when it didn't work. It's where I got the insight about Acts of Service - wanting to show love in a way that is meaningful to him without using domestic work to buy affection. There's a difference and I'm still working through.

I don't doubt it would be useful to H. He considers himself a good guy, a victim in life, and any implication at all that he isn't perfect is met with the most amazingly childish behaviour. He's very very invested in that image of himself. He needs to blame so he doesn't ever have to consider changing. However, there's not a cat's chance in the hot-place that he would read this book, and that chance would decrease 100% if it was me suggesting it to him. He isn't interested in other people's points of view. He's always right. Always. It's much better for me and my marriage if I concentrate on myself and leave him to himself.

Alison, on point #1 - I think I understand why you don't wish to validate. Is it because this is a behavior he has gotten away with for far too long and you wish it to stop? Because it's a poor habit of his you feel you would be validating, not an authentic emotion?

Hi Yail! Happy New Year! I'm going to take your questions point by point and answer in a bit of detail - mainly for my own sake as a kind of record - and I just wanted to say THANK YOU because they were so intensely useful and illuminating to me.

So - the blaming. It's his belief that he is pretty helpless to address any minor discomfort at all in his life, and the major problems are all someone else's fault too. This is an ingrained characteristic in him. I find it infuriating and I am working on letting that go. I guess he can feel how he likes, but the behaviour - verbalising it to me - has no positive outcome at all. It entrenches the fiction that he has no agency in his life, and it's dull and unattractive to hear. I think the emotion - he feels stuck, helpless, like the world is out to get him, that things aren't fair - is one that he genuinely feels. But I am only guessing at that emotion. He doesn't express it verbally.

I guess I'm torn on this one. My first instinct is to say something along the lines of, "thank you for sharing that perspective with me" which isn't exactly validating, but it's not invalidating either. But that would likely allow his blame-game to continue unchecked. I thought of mirroring what he says so it sounds ridiculous but I do not think that would help (and would start a fight and likely sound in-validating).

On minor things, 'thanks for telling me,' or 'I hear you' or 'I get what you're saying' will sometimes be enough to head the whinging off at the pass. At other times, especially when we get onto the ways in which he thinks things are my fault, he really really needs me to agree with him. Sometimes I do, and I say, 'yes, that was difficult, and I wish I'd behaved differently. I can't fix the past. I want to do differently now and in the future,' - he almost always finds that provocative and will point out instances from distant and recent past where I have displeased him, most times twisting the truth pretty spectacularly in order to do so. My suspicion here is that he wants a contrite and obedient emotional punch bag and doesn't like the fact he doesn't have one any more. I think it's healthiest to let him suffer that on his own without much validation from me (especially as he probably wouldn't agree with that!)

So saying "What do you want to do about it" is helpful to someone who has coping skills. But he doesn't, and he can't work it out in the moment of emotion. Would changing the language to "what do you think WE should do about it?" be helpful? Imply that you'll help?

Or a simple choice? "I'd love to know how I can help. Would you like me to listen, or offer solutions?"
They say this is one of the primary differences in the ways men/women communicate. One learned behavior is that men offer solutions when the woman just wants someone to listen & validate. Perhaps this is what he is actually seeking?

This is really useful. Thank you. It helps me to have bit of compassion for him - to understand that he's just not mature enough. He CAN'T do these things. I may as well be angry at a toddler for not being able to balance a chequebook.

If I give an example, it might help? Last night, H brought up the fact he was concerned that Eldest doesn't see friends very much. Eldest does have some extra-curricular hobbies, but it is true, he doesn't tend to see friends at weekends and invite them back to the house.

H: expresses this concern.
Me: Yes, I can see you're worried about that.
H: I need to know you're going to back me up on this.
Me: What action do you want to take? I want to know what you think would be best.
H: Eldest needs to do X Y and Z. (This was specifics about seeing friends, getting out and about, doing activities).
Me: I agree those things would be positive for him, but I'm not sure what your ideas are for what you think we as his parents should do?
H: Expresses more worry and anxiety about Eldest.
Me: You know, when I've had conversations about this with Eldest, he doesn't seem unhappy. Perhaps it's not as much of a problem as we thought. I'm at a loss as to how we'd encourage or make him do the things you want him to do? Maybe you could have a conversation with him about it?
H: Well Eldest won't talk to me about anything. That's because you... (insert more stuff here about how I am so lenient I've made him into the bad guy... I listen to a little bit of this, and he seems to get agitated and go around in circles. He seems to have forgotten what his original point is.)
H: I need you to back me up. It's no wonder he won't do what I want if you don't back me up.
Me: I can't back you up until I know what it is you plan to do. Can you tell me?

We went round and round like this for a while until I got frustrated. I probably showed that in my tone and body language. I said I didn't want to talk about it any longer, but I would be open to hearing any suggestions he had. I also followed up by suggesting to Eldest, in front of H, that he might want to invite some friends around this weekend. H was playing a computer game at the time and didn't participate in the conversation at all. H has very very very few social contacts outside his work. I couldn't name one friend of his. Eldest is an introvert, I'd say, but not a loner. H suffers massive social anxiety and I believe is projecting this on Eldest and wanting me to act as his proxy in taking some action to make Eldest do the things he isn't able to do himself. I haven't shared that opinion with him at all.

This was a very very mild example of the sort of conversations we have almost daily. H raises a problem. I either don't think it's a problem, or I think if it's a problem it is down to him to make a suggestion, or I agree it is a problem and make a suggestion as to how to fix it, and nothing changes, or he loses interest in the matter almost immediately. When I have asked him what he needs from me he says he wants me to care about his feelings. Me telling him verbally I care about his feelings doesn't seem to matter. I believe he wants me to change his feelings. He seems to be under the impression I am capable of that, and of course I am not so when his bad feelings don't go away, he gets to be annoyed at me about that.

Last thought: Remind me, were you in therapy for a while? Still? I'm curious if your therapist might offer you some feedback on your body language. Since the two of you are in a repetitive back-and-forth dynamic and you are changing your words I wonder if you can change your body language to match, and feedback on how you are subtly communicating may be helpful. Perhaps your husband is more in tuned to that than actual words.

I am going to ask my IC about this. I think that would be really helpful to know. I am fairly sure that in these instances, even when I am trying to verbalise willing and helpfulness and that I care, my actual thoughts, which are generally along the lines of 'this again?' seep out. I might be able to fake it better. We've generally been talking about boundaries, building up my self esteem, meeting my own emotional needs and managing my parenting better - but I can ask about this. I did see H's IC with him once before a couple of months ago - in the summer - and she suggested I either acted like a child seeking his approval, or like a parent trying to manage his childish behaviour. I think she was absolutely right. I believe he either acts like a parent - trying to get me in line to do what he wants - or like a child tantrumming because he feels bad and it's Mommy's fault. Unhealthy on both sides.

[AlisonUK]

This is my weekly update, as sort-of suggested by Yail. I am finding that very helpful - both as a way of measuring progress but also not getting so getting caught up in the daily detail of normal life that I don't step back and take a wider view.

So, overall it has been a good week. There was a little bit of conflict around a piece of paperwork that we needed to complete together. I was tense and expecting conflict as he didn't want to do it and I was driving it as it needed to be done. I was worried he was going to say I was nagging or controlling him, and when he was grumpy I over-reacted. He didn't react particularly well to my over-reaction. Our anxieties seemed to be feeding each other and after a fairly minor squabble there was a day or two of quite polite frostiness until we had a conversation about it (more on that later). It seems that more and more often our minor disputes are about us bringing the past into the present.

There have been no instances at all of verbal abuse, weird mocking behaviours, unpleasantness with the children, snide remarks etc. Even when we had words over the paperwork, he was a bit grumpy and difficult, but then again, so was I. Neither of us were abusive in that instance: just childish (me too). I've felt a little more secure now the 1 year since BD and move out day has passed and I think that anxiety easing has made things a little calmer for both of us. I notice he's volunteering a lot more information about his life - just his day to day goings on at work, how he's feeling about things, what his plans are - and retaining the information I give him about my life and even asking follow up questions. That's new and welcome.

So: this conversation. I actually approached him (bad D-Bing) to try and sort out the atmosphere that had crept in after our words earlier in the week. It kind of spiralled into a very very long and difficult conversation about the state of the R more generally, and what we wanted, and how it was all going since he moved back in. It was difficult. Very difficult. I was tearful at times and he was quite harsh at times but I kept control of myself and so did he. I guess I will summarise.

[list]
[*]he told me the full truth about his EA. It was broadly as I suspected, with some additional details I didn't know that I found quite hurtful to hear, though I don't believe his motivation was to hurt me, but to be honest.
[*]he spoke to me quite clearly and without blaming or critical language about how he felt when I had PND and how he didn't think I'd ever appreciate how difficult that time was for him
[*]how he was afraid all the time of things slipping back to how they were
[*]I shared how difficult I found him to communicate with because of how often he criticises and blames without actually saying clearly what he feels and what he wants and I didn't think we could repair things unless he could speak up for himself without whining (I did use that actual term, which might have been a mistake but he did laugh)
[*]I also said it was extremely difficult for me to feel safe in our marriage given that he seemed reluctant to take full responsibility for his shortcomings and abusive behaviours and his attitude seemed to be that he was justified in them
[*]I said I wasn't willing to commit to reconciling with him when what was offered was a relationship where he felt justified, in some circumstances, in being verbally or emotionally abusive or in lying to me - that what I needed to know was that we were on the same page and there were never any justifications from those behaviours
[*]he said he needed to know he would be able to move on from the past and not have it constantly hanging over him and brought up in every argument and he felt he couldn't even make a minor mistake in signing a form (our argument about the paperwork) without feeling that I was actually reacting to every bad thing he'd done in the past
[*]I said I needed to know there were no more secrets, and that nothing new was going to creep out of the woodwork in months or years to come regarding his EA or anything else that had happened relevant to our relationship while we had been separated

So we talked all this through for a good long time and ended by making an agreement that we would no longer bring up the past in day to day conversation (though that still might happen with an MC) and that we would both try to respond 'in the moment' rather than assuming what the other person was thinking or feeling and acting based on that. We both agreed that it would be difficult to break old habits and overcome insecurities and we would seek help on this, give each other some grace, and try to help each other.

I don't know if I am explaining this very well. it wasn't so much 'we will sweep all this under the carpet' but more, 'we will have to talk about this in a more solution focused way, looking forward together, rather than just rehearsing the reasons we have both been unhappy about things' and that felt very positive to me.

Some of the things he shared with me about his EA were very difficult for me to hear. There was more contact between them than I had discovered. it was a long time ago now, and there is no current contact between them and hasn't been for some time. He offered total transparency on his phone and computer but I didn't take him up on that. I don't want to be that kind of person. And it means nothing anyway - he could very easily have a second phone or only see her in person and there is no amount of checking that will make a person honest and faithful if they do not want to be. I don't want him faithful because he's worried about getting caught, is what I told him. What was more important to me was that he agreed that he didn't want to be in a relationship where there was justifications for lying. I don't yet trust he will consistently live up to that (and I did say that to him), but I do believe that he meant it when he said it.

Since then things have been very good. There's been a lightness. Less fear. More fun and affection. I've felt less on my guard. I have had moments of sadness mulling over the things he's told me about his EA. The details were old news to him, but new to me. It hurts a bit. I haven't brought it up to him but I haven't pretended to be happy when I am not. He has been kind without being smothering. I guess we're doing a lot of this non-verbally. Which seems to work a bit better for him. He has also seemed happier and more motivated to say what he wants in small ways. I still have GAL and he still has none and that is his business, I suppose, though he's been easier on Eldest in the past few days and I've actually seem them laughing together a few times.

I guess my question is - from anyone who has experience or who has been reading my threads - whether they think this is positive or if I am deluding myself, and what my next steps should be? I want to talk to my IC (tomorrow) about body language, and anger, and boundaries again. I think I do still feel very angry at him and I don't know if it is humanly possible for me to put all that in the past and move on from it. I would like to find solutions with him and I feel more hopeful that it is possible to find those solutions and redesign a life together that suits us both (or perhaps find out clearly that we aren't compatible any more) and perhaps the days of getting mired in him attacking and criticising and blaming and me pacifying and placating or getting upset or defending myself or avoiding him are in the past. Time will tell I guess.

[AlisonUK]

This was a very very mild example of the sort of conversations we have almost daily. H raises a problem. I either don't think it's a problem, or I think if it's a problem it is down to him to make a suggestion, or I agree it is a problem and make a suggestion as to how to fix it, and nothing changes, or he loses interest in the matter almost immediately. When I have asked him what he needs from me he says he wants me to care about his feelings. Me telling him verbally I care about his feelings doesn't seem to matter. I believe he wants me to change his feelings. He seems to be under the impression I am capable of that, and of course I am not so when his bad feelings don't go away, he gets to be annoyed at me about that.

Notes to myself, really. I've re-read this thread and noticed how positive the conversations we were having during the summer were. There was much less of the type of dynamic that I picked apart above. We seem to have slipped back into that again, and I think slipping back into it made me more wary and defensive, more angry and withdrawn and unwilling to validate or show empathy to him, and made him more critical and blamey and moaney. I do remember being blown away by how positively we were communicating in the summer. I think both of us sensed things were slipping backwards in the communication.

[AnotherStander]

Alison, I never went through piecing but I've heard so many people talk about what hard work it is and I think your thoughts really highlight why. It is a very difficult process to sort out feelings, anxieties, concerns, and how to address and mitigate them moving forward. It sounds like this latest was a tough conversation but I think you handled it well and that it needed to happen. And it also won't be the last I'm sure! Have you considered Retrouvaille? I think the communications techniques taught there would be a big help to you both.

[AlisonUK]

I'm not sure I know what that is, AS. We're in the UK but I will look it up. I am not anti-Christian and find a lot of Christian marriage advice useful (I am religious but not Christian). H is a new-atheist type and would be very put off by anything with even a tiny whiff of God about it.

If this is piecing, then getting divorced would be easier. I genuinely feel that while I'd be very sad to leave my marriage, I would also be fine and have exciting things to look forward to. This way feels very tiring and uncertain. There's been some ease and fun between us these past few days that I have missed. But he is a human being and he won't be able to keep this up forever - and neither will I. I don't know how either of us will respond when the other makes a mistake or seems to be slipping back. I will go with him to his IC next month and we can address some of it there, I hope. She seems to have done wonders with him...

[Yail]

Alison, I guess I missed your recent updates. I'm not sure what to say except just keep going. Remember that not a single decision of yours needs to happen in a single day. You are waiting for things to settle into a clear future, but I don't see that happening.

If anything, your future will be come clear only through time, and you'll look back and see your path clearly and how it lead you. All you can do is show up everyday with good intentions, be patient with yourself and your H, and listen to your heart on what the best steps are.

[IronWill]

Hey Alison -

Once again I commend you on your ability to see from outside of your own perspective, and to question yourself whether or not you have some improvement or if things are the status quo.

On first read, it appears to me that you both had a significant conversation, as difficult as it may have been. I would hesitate to say that it is "the conversation" (if there even is such a thing - personally I don't believe in Hollywood nonsense that there would be only one) but there appear to be elements of clarity, some forthcoming, and several positive things that were said.

Again, it's hard to tell from words on a screen, and harder still when you aren't "in" the situation fully. My recommendation might be to go back and contrast what you wrote in that post to what you wrote around the BD days and see if you're in a better place.

If I had to guess I might say you are close to piecing, but I wouldn't know, I'm still on the other side of the canyon, on mile 6 of the marathon (I think?).

Stay strong Alison

[AlisonUK]

If I had to guess I might say you are close to piecing

Thanks Iron Will. I don't think there'll be 'a conversation' either. I know the conversation we had last week covered ground we had attempted to discuss before - months and months ago - but I did feel there was a better honesty from him and I was more able to hear and understand, and vice versa.

I think if you asked my H he'd say that we were working on things. That this wasn't a reconciliation but about rebuilding a relationship from scratch.

Up until a couple of weeks ago I would not have said that. I'd have said, instead, that we were two separate people living in the same house, both testing various situations to see if an R was possible. I don't get the sense that we're 'going back' in terms of resurrecting something that was dead. I do think if R is to happen it isn't about a return but about making something new. I do want to do that, and I believe that H wants to do that, but I am not certain either he or I have the skills or abilities to carry it off.

There's been a peaceful and happy few days. He is touching me more - just in passing - and differently: as if I am his wife and someone he desires the company and attention of rather than as if I am a task to be completed or dealt with before he can do what he actually wants to do. The difference is subtle but it is there and I do feel it and I think he is feeling it too.

So much of this is non-verbal and I don't want to mind read. But his actions are following through. I've noted him taking great care over the words he chooses when he speaks to me, and genuinely and uninhibitedly looking happy when I come into the room. It's been years - years! - since I've seen him do that. We both have a couple of very demanding work weeks coming up and made a plan together the other evening as to how we will handle childcare, cooking, GAL for me and time alone for him. That was very new.

I'm in a strange place. Happy about these developments. Don't trust them. Wanting to trust them and enjoy what I have, but not wanting to feel safe in case it makes the fall back I fear is in my future even harder to bear. I am in some ways still grieving the past and the difficult times. Still mulling over this new information about his EA - pictures in my head. Flashes of anger and mean things I want to say (I don't say them, I go out for walks instead!). I've had my opportunity to ask questions and get information so I know I need to leave this behind. He has offered full transparency and these days I don't have any doubts that he's where he says he is and that his actions are faithful. I feel fear: that something else will come out (I know what people say about a man confessing to an EA because he doesn't want to confess to an PA) or that something important has been hidden. If I meant what I said when I said I was willing to move on from our shared past and work on a new R, then I need to let that go. Most of the time it is okay. I just wish it hadn't happened. I do appreciate that at that time he was very stressed, lonely and anxious and was attracted to something fun and comforting: he got the admiration and attention he wasn't getting at home. That doesn't make it my fault, or any less wrong, and it doesn't make me responsible for keeping him faithful. But sometimes I can feel a bit of compassion for him in his loneliness and self-centeredness at that time. And sometimes I would like to pour paint stripper on the OW's car and let her know precisely what my opinions are about her (and I do know she isn't the one who made vows to me and isn't deserving of those feelings). I am just riding these emotions out. I will check in again properly next week.

[AlisonUK]

A weekly update.

Things are progressing okay. There's been no drama at all about the kids, housework, money - nothing like that. It's been a very demanding week for both of us and I feel like we've worked well together as a team.

I've been struggling a bit. I can't say it's because of H's behaviour. He's been a little more distant but it's because he's been working anti social hours and is tired. Me too. But he's not been unpleasant or cold or critical. He's been talking to me about what's happening for him at work. Talking about a future, new projects, new things to do - and including me in those plans. All of that is good.

It's me. I've been struggling with fear. Wondering, always 'well, what if he's just pretending he's happy but he's actually seething with resentment and I'm going to catch it at the weekend,' and when I feel like that, I know I get a bit grumpy and distant and wary and that is as likely to trigger him to be distant or critical himself as anything else. I've also been remembering how much dishonesty there was about his EA and how extensive and calculated some of his lying was. And that for most of it, I didn't really suspect anything. I knew things weren't right between us - we were both very unhappy - but I had no idea that one of his responses was to seek closeness with someone else. I didn't have a clue. That makes me scared. He could be doing the same thing now and I'd never know. I don't have any solid reason in his behaviour today and these last months that I have anything to worry about in that direction. This is old stuff to do with the past. But it is there and I am sad that it is there.

He's been asking me how I feel, and wanting to 'work on the honesty' but I know expressing unease or worry or insecurity is a massive trigger for him and he's as likely to respond with unpleasantness as he is to be reassuring. And I haven't wanted to load him up with what's going on in my head as he's been so burdened at work (as have I). We also agreed to lay the past behind us, so I don't think disclosing all this in the interests of honesty is a good idea. Or that it is fair: I do need to work on my own healing.

I have GAL tonight so am off out with friends.

[may22]

Hi Alison,

Just a question and I don't know if this is considered DBing or anything... but are there things you DO feel safe in sharing with him, and getting him to share with you? As you start to rebuild trust and intimacy, of course you are scared and sad. And what you're both going through right now is super heavy and difficult, and maybe you both aren't ready to share where you are with the other person who figures so prominently in why you are feeling this way. I just wonder if you can start small, talk about important things that aren't R-related, relationships with colleagues or parents or whatever where you can begin to rebuild the connection between the two of you?

Have fun out with your friends-- relax and enjoy!