Merry Christmas, Alison. You sound (read) very level headed and strong. You have come such a long way. I have no doubt you will find your way through this. In time, it will sort out and you will find your own happiness again. Life is long and there is no rush to predict the future. Wishing you peace and joy!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
thank you everyone. Some great suggestions here, which have helped me to come up with a plan.
1. decide what the boundary is... 'when you do this behaviour, I will...' 2. bring this up when I visit his IC with him at earliest opportunity and state my boundary there 3. as Yail suggests, check in here or in a personal diary to keep a clearer log of how often and when this happens 4. GAL, detach, give acts of service, count the good things
Merry Christmas everyone. I will check back in the New Year. I wish you all good things in your home lives.
I wanted to pipe in as my H has some similar tendencies around blaming others and lashing out when his (unspoken) desires aren't met. I share in everyone's discomfort with the way he's acting, and absolutely agree that you need to address this NOW with him and his IC before you allow it to continue.
A few things that I have tried with my H that have really helped (with his behavior in these situations, not in the overall "staying married" part so take it all with a grain of salt ) that might be appropriate in your situation:
--I make it a point to ask, ask again, and then get verbal confirmation if we're going to do something that I suspect he isn't 100% into. I saw you did that and then worried that you were acting overbearing and naggy- NO! You weren't. You are trying to communicate with him clearly and get him to communicate with you, which you need to do if he isn't going to take responsibility for his own choices.
--I also try to reinforce him when he does share what he wants to do, particularly if I don't care too much one way or the other-- if he is willing to share what he wants and I'm OK with it, I think it helps him see he can have his own opinion and it is fine. For instance, when your H said he would need some decompression time during the holidays, it might be good for you to make it happen-- find a time where you take the kids and let him know that is what you're doing because he told you it would be helpful for him.
-- I definitely think he needs to work with his IC to figure out why he's doing this mocking thing and how he can stop. This is not something you should accept.
-- Finally, it sounds like you guys need to work out a better way of communication. It isn't OK that you don't feel heard, or that you're worried or scared to bring something up that you feel in order to keep the peace. Then what's the point of being in an R with him? You don't want to go through your life like this and I would imagine you would need to have some level of hope it will change in order to keep him around-- and if he isn't able to take this seriously and work on this now, when will be a better time? I can't remember if you guys are seeing an MC or not, but this could be something to work through with an MC. Or, even both reading Gottman's 7 Principles and trying out some of the exercises with a regularly scheduled time to talk about things? Maybe feels contrived but perhaps if you can set some ground rules that you can both follow and it can be a safe space to share.
Not sure any of this is helpful but wanted to say I can totally empathize with you and am glad you're not going to accept this behavior anymore. It isn't OK and he needs to realize that.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thanks May - some great suggestions there. And yes, I have definitely decided I need to have a hard boundary around this behaviour and I need to communicate to him what that is during IC. I don't know when the next IC appointment is and if I will be going to it - I hope so - and I plan to check that with him tomorrow.
Otherwise, things have gone well since I last posted. There's not been one bit of unpleasantness of any kind. Both kids had their moments over a busy Christmas period, and I feel like we worked really well together. I also made sure that he got his decompression time. He was very verbally appreciative of my work cooking / hosting / organising and I felt very supportive in that he was encouraging the kids to help me and show some gratitude. He did take some time away for himself, but was also much more 'present' and involved than he was last Christmas.
We are coming up to one year since he moved out. It's been an awful year. I still do feel a bit sad and feel like I want a lot of reassurance and care around the anniversary of him moving out. I don't know if this is the time to take care of my own emotional needs, or tell him what's going on in my head and let him take the chance to get closer to me.
Things continue calmly. I'm back at work and the kids are back at school tomorrow and I am looking forward to getting back into my usual routine: too much time in the house, too much time playing cook and laundry maid, too much time watching H slack-jawed in front of a computer screen. He really doesn't have many friends or interests. He doesn't seem to be as depressed or anxious as he was, and he is caring for himself better in some small ways. He isn't drinking hardly at all - apart from over Christmas as everyone does. But he doesn't have GAL and that makes him hard to talk to and hard to be interested in sometimes.
I have managed to spend some extra time with friends, and on my own, but I'm still adjusting to having another adult in the house, checking in with them, making plans together or separately but co-ordinated. H doesn't like to be pressed on his plans (he'd say he's more of a 'go with the flow' type - it comes off as passive and evasive to me) so getting things to line up so everyone gets a bit of what they need - solo time, housework done, time with kids, time with friends, time as a couple - involves better communication than we're having right now. But it was okay.
I did manage to take myself out on a long walk today and get some reflection and perspective on what is happening in my head. There have been so many changes over the past couple of months I think I am only just processing them, and recalibrating my attitude to our past marriage.
I know I used to be extremely hurt by some of his previous behaviour. I thought if only I could be a better wife, or find the right way to communicate, or showed him how upset I was, then things would change. I took total responsibility for all out problems. Now I don't recognise that person. I look back on our past and think what a pathetic, contemptible set of behaviours from a deeply flawed and insecure man, and what's worse, I allowed it, enabled and even encouraged it for far too long. I do feel I am changing a lot. He spoke to me sharply this morning in front of the kids. I looked up at him, put down what I was doing and said 'don't you dare speak to me like that. Get control of yourself.' I know he was surprised. I was surprised at myself. He stopped immediately. He didn't apologise. But I am done biting my lip and playing the adoring or insecure wife. If we are rebuilding this marriage we will do it from the ground up and I am not who I was and the old dynamic doesn't work for me anymore.
What I notice is that I am still struggling to respect him. As a human being I respect him. I don't admire him or look up to him as I used to. Perhaps that will come. My more pressing task is to respect and feel good about myself. I wish there was something enjoyable that we did together - some shared interest or hobby other than the running of the house and the kids. He's very hard to talk to, to get interested in anything. We have very different tastes in films. I'm not that interested in music, he listens to it all the time. I'm a bookworm, he's probably read two books in ten years. He follows the news, me, not so much. I have close friends and like connecting through conversation, he's a loner who values privacy. We did go out today to the beach for a walk with the dog, and both enjoyed that - so that's a start.
wow, he does not sound fun to live with...Have you both discussed doing something new together? You could take it in turns proposing something and the other person has to go along once without complaining (I know he's prone to complaining :)) What did you used to do together before you had kids? I am so proud of you for your new habit of being assertive. Piecing (if that's what you are doing) sounds HARD. I hope you can both warm things up between you x
PS I have read back through all my old threads (and banging my head at how little I listened to anyone) and I really appreciate you being there for me during such a tough time, it made such a difference having you posting kindly on my threads. Thank you
Ah - he's not much fun most of the time, no. But then again he wasn't put on earth to provide me with fun, and I can make enough of that for myself and when I don't, well, that's on me.
My challenge is looking at him through a lens of compassion and not contempt. He's allowed to be weak, self-centred and flawed - aren't we all? I'd rather he could admit to these things and work on them, rather than sit festering in self pity and blame. But that desire is self interested: it would be nicer for ME if he'd do these things. It would vindicate my view of him and our situation. But perhaps he's where he needs to be at the moment. I tend to leave him alone quite a lot these days. Partly because - as you say - he's no fun and doesn't have much to offer and partly because I'm acclimatised to getting on with my own life without him.
On compassionate days, I can offer him some affection and reassurance and understanding. Doing this verbally often risks getting us into conversations I don't want to have. Acknowledging, for example, that he looks a bit frustrated or worn out or depleted will often invite him to list all the reasons why it's someone else's fault he's in that state. That whinging isn't anything I have bandwidth to listen to, and dishing out the opium of validation to him only enables his childishness and emotional immaturity, so instead I give him a wide berth and instead try to communicate though acts of service. I have to have balance on that: to look after myself, my kids, do GAL and THEN if there's anything left try to do something kind for him, rather than turn myself back into a doormat who is trading domestic services for approval and affection. I don't always get that right.
I don't have many compassionate days, if I am honest. He isn't attractive to me at all - I struggle with that. Most says I see a sulking, blaming, silly little boy who isn't capable of taking action to resolve any of his own issues. When he's not in that mood, he is more appealing a prospect to be around and we have some good times - some laughs, some companionship. There are times when he's very engaged and present and wants to work together on some task around the house, or take the kids out together. He tells me more about his work life and anxieties around than than he ever has. I listen. He's much much better with both kids. He's slightly more likely to express he's feeling scared or vulnerable in words, rather than lashing out or sulking. The 'lashing out' when it happens comes in the form of snapping and grumpiness and doesn't come into verbal abuse any more. The weird thing he's doing with the impressions - he hasn't actually done it at all since I mentioned it on here. I am quite sure he isn't reading these posts. I think perhaps he's sensing a change in me, or he's worried I do plan to bring it up with his therapist when we go to his IC.
So that's where we are.
Dilly - you are very welcome. If i was kind to you or helped in any way, or even just gave you a laugh or a bit of company, well I am glad. I was in such a dark place when I arrived at these boards. I'm not there any more and I don't think you are either. I thought of you often over the summer. I really hope you keep turning up here now and again and that things continue to improve for you and your kids. I think you're all going to be okay.
Ugh. I don't like that I've just written a long post about H. That isn't where I want to spend my attention. I want to think about my own development.
So - I need to decide on what a healthy and adult and loving response is around various ways that he communicates that's unacceptable to me. I want to really get good at this - whatever happens with my marriage, this is a skill that will serve me well in my friendships, as a parent, and at work.
1. Blame - I don't accept it, am not interested in hearing it, and find it boring and unattractive. I want to respond with a neutral noise of acknowledgement 'hmmm' and then leave the room. I expect some of you will be advising me to validate but this is a man who has literally never ever been content with anything, and while it used to be his mother's fault, now it's mine. I need a boundary to protect myself from this nonsense. 2. Sarcasm, mockery, etc: I leave the room right away. The house if I need to. 3. General complaining. I respond by validating the emotion - even if he's not clearly expressing one I can take a guess - then asking 'what do you want to do' or 'what you want?' as a way of inviting him to take some action, rather than just more moaning. This hasn't been working so well - usually we start with complaining, he moves onto blame, and if I take the bait and start defending myself, we get onto the sarcasm or mockery. I need a healthy way to respond to complaints.
I also need to leave him alone more. It irritates me when he's in the family room with his headphones on playing a computer game. He gets irritated if anyone speaks to him. This is between 7-9 in the evening when it's the full business of family life. I think it's pathetic just to 'check out' like that. I know he's tired, but I work too and if he checks out, it means all of the practical and emotional needs of the kids are on me. It's his way of escaping. I think he escapes because he feels exhausted and also incompetent. He doesn't do it all the time though. And he is more likely to do it when he's been working long shifts and when it's been a while since he's had some alone time. I know when I try to engage him by trying to have conversations, asking or nagging for help with the domestic stuff or with the kids, or wanting to discuss something practical that could wait, he's likely to get irritable. I can just let him be in those moments. I am perfectly capable of doing everything on my own anyway.
I've been reading many stories on here, and i've just completed yours. Wow. And do you know what, i read alot of it as if it was my W posting! This is revealing to me as i'm recognising my part in being the LBS, and the traits i've displayed in the past. Although i would hope not to the extent you have put up with. Anyway my point is, i have been reading and re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and so, so much resonates.
What i have gleaned from your posts is that your H is displaying a huge amount of Nice Guy Syndrome traits, which conversely aren't actually that 'Nice' at all. He has issued you with covert contracts, that in his head make sense, but you are completely unaware of. So when he reacts negatively towards you its usually because of an unmet need, that you (rather annoyingly to H) should have known about!
I would recommend you have a read, as a lot of it may make sense to you, and ultimately if your H is willing - he should definitely have a read too.
Your journey is a powerful one for me - as stated above, it has helped me enormously because shamefully i can see i have exhibited similar behaviours as your H. A reminder to me to continue making my self the best version of me.
Lastly - You are doing so well, i'm following with interest as a beacon for the introspection you display and the growth and fortitude you are realising. Keep going, I support you!
Alison, on point #1 - I think I understand why you don't wish to validate. Is it because this is a behavior he has gotten away with for far too long and you wish it to stop? Because it's a poor habit of his you feel you would be validating, not an authentic emotion?
I guess I'm torn on this one. My first instinct is to say something along the lines of, "thank you for sharing that perspective with me" which isn't exactly validating, but it's not invalidating either. But that would likely allow his blame-game to continue unchecked. I thought of mirroring what he says so it sounds ridiculous but I do not think that would help (and would start a fight and likely sound in-validating).
I'm a bit at a loss on this one because it's so ingrained in his behavior. I guess I'd just say to acknowledge his blame/complaining some of the time, but not always. Try to identify which ones may require some validating so he feels heard. But also other times perhaps just a "hmmm". The reason I say this is so that you don't get into the bad habit of just ignoring someone attempting (very, very poorly) to express something. His bad habit doesn't need to turn into your bad habit of learning NOT to validate.
Point #3: When someone is frustrated and struggling with an emotion it can be very hard for logic to be of assistance. Like a toddler with a tantrum. They're not actually upset that their cheerio fell on the floor, they're upset that they're tired and this small thing they wanted didn't work out and so now there is just not a full skill-set to express the frustration. Your husband doesn't have the skillset, so he goes into some fight-or-flight mode of just shutting down and/or fight.
So saying "What do you want to do about it" is helpful to someone who has coping skills. But he doesn't, and he can't work it out in the moment of emotion. Would changing the language to "what do you think WE should do about it?" be helpful? Imply that you'll help?
Or a simple choice? "I'd love to know how I can help. Would you like me to listen, or offer solutions?" They say this is one of the primary differences in the ways men/women communicate. One learned behavior is that men offer solutions when the woman just wants someone to listen & validate. Perhaps this is what he is actually seeking?
I feel you've tried all this, but wanted to offer the outsiders thoughts.
Last thought: Remind me, were you in therapy for a while? Still? I'm curious if your therapist might offer you some feedback on your body language. Since the two of you are in a repetitive back-and-forth dynamic and you are changing your words I wonder if you can change your body language to match, and feedback on how you are subtly communicating may be helpful. Perhaps your husband is more in tuned to that than actual words.
) that might be appropriate in your situation: