How much stuff does she already have at your house? What is the definitive determinant of when she's actually moved in? I need to know so I can calculate the move-in date and the amount of money I'm willing to risk.
One toothbrush and tube of toothpaste. One pair of extra warm socks. Some hair ties and pins. A fair amount of DNA in the form of long red hair that is "everywhere". A small bit of unfinished laundry. 4 storage totes of Autumn/Halloween decorations. 3 small tricycles. 1 storage tote of baby toys.
Originally Posted by doodler
I suspect the reality is that S12 was disturbed because his mom is sleeping with another man that's not his dad. I'm sure it's happened before, but in my opinion, when you see that happen, it's time to excuse yourself and go home.
Touché. His dad is XH#2 but point still taken. S has told me and I have no reason to doubt it, that she hasn't slept with her STBX since she originally left and that they didn't co-habitate or sleep together when reconciliation was attempted. I am confident that the guy she dated 2 years ago did sleep over at her place from time to time.
Originally Posted by doodler
That was a d!ck move on her part. And, the fact that she wouldn't be progressing with the divorce if you weren't in the picture bothers me. You're the OM. You're doing to her husband what was done to you. I know, he's not the best husband or dad, but I just don't think it's right.
A hit, a very palpable hit.
Originally Posted by doodler
I hope I haven't chased you away. I know that I'm not aware of a lot of the details of your relationship with S, but it makes me feel uneasy that she's still married and you're the catalyst for ending the marriage. Also, we need to get through this thread by the end of the month (using the Georgian/Julian calendar).
It does raise an important point though. When do we actually determine that a relationship is over? I know that my ex-wife had her own opinions which were different than mine. I hung on and believed myself to be "married" presumably long past when she did.
Looking back - and I know this is supposed to be looking forward - CL who was just at the early part of her own process - wasn't free in her own mind and certainly held back. B - was enthusiastically single - or so perhaps she thought having been split from her H for about 2 years I believe - but still kept connections to her H and possibly has gotten back together with him.
S hasn't been a couple with her STBX since at least late last winter when they attempted a reconciliation. Prior to that I suspect that there was a bit of the "living apart together" thing going on where they would sometimes do things together and often not while maintaining separate households. She dated after leaving him about 5 years or so ago and had at least one serious relationship about 2 years ago.
What I think we're seeing here is what I have called in the past referencing my own ex "branch swinging". Hanging on to a past relationship until there is certainty in a new one. Is this actually the case? Impossible to tell and the women involved perhaps don't really know themselves. Is this common? I really don't know - perhaps others who have more history have an opinion. My own experience may be biased in that both B and S are living in less than ideal economic conditions. A woman with a full time job etc may not. Although my ex who did have the means to be self-sufficient also hung on to me well past departure.
My own personal opinion is that a relationship is over when there is no hope of reconciliation. This can be, again in my own opinion, a unilateral choice. Most of us here have had that choice made by our former partners. The actual legal status isn't necessarily relevant although it is significant. As is often said here, divorce is just a piece of paper. The financial ties are a bit trickier. But the most important one is the emotional ties being severed combined with a clear statement to the other person involved that the relationship is indeed over. S I am confident, did that 5 years ago - but then waffled.
Good points though and worth examining.
And it's only the 2nd of January so we may indeed burn through this by the end of the month. I'll need to make another batch of cookies for job.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
It does raise an important point though. When do we actually determine that a relationship is over? I know that my ex-wife had her own opinions which were different than mine. I hung on and believed myself to be "married" presumably long past when she did.
The "we" that needs to answer when the relationship is over is a decision for S and her husband, not you and S. Remember the hope that you had that you could reconcile? How do you know that her husband doesn't have that hope? Put yourself in his shoes.
I don't mean to be a spoil-sport. Honestly it makes me uncomfortable to say those things, but it just doesn't seem right. Again, I don't know the details of your relationship, so maybe I'm prejudiced, but I think a policy to not dating married women would be in your best interest. I mean that, I think it would be in your best interest. If you get into another relationship, you want it to be long term, you don't need another disastrous ending.
Cookies? Here’s the recipe for my favorite childhood cookies. These cookies have it all - they’re sweet and salty, crunchy and chewy. They can easily be made gluten free by substituting GF baking flour (I use Bob’s Red Mill), GF corn flakes ( i get these at the health food store, regular corn flakes are out because they have barley malt), and GF oats (regular oats can be cross contaminated with gluten so they must say gluten-free).
Ranger cookies: 1 cup butter, room temp (2 sticks). Beat with 1 cup white sugar and 1 cup brown sugar (I use dark). Add 1 tsp vanilla and 2 large eggs, mix thoroughly. In separate bowl, mix 2 cups flour, 1/2 tsp baking powder, 1 tsp baking soda, 1 tsp salt. Mix flour mixture into bowl with butter/sugar mixture. Add 2 cups corn flakes, 2 cups oats, 1 cup sweetened coconut flakes, 1 cup chopped walnuts. Drop spoonfuls onto baking sheet and bake at 350 degrees for approx 10-13 minutes until lightly brown. Cool on cookie rack. Once thoroughly cooled can be stored in Tupperware for up to a week. Makes about 6 dozen cookies.
Holy cow, I mean wow, Doodler!!!!!!!!!!! I mean OMG, with your comments. Oh, wait a minute, I think someone has hacked Doodler's computer, or at least his account here. Seriously, very, very good points - I think even more so as when things come from me or the "regulars" it's one thing but when Doodler gets all serious it's something to really pay attention to.
Many of the same quotes Doodler pulled out, also jumped at me. However, since he's done a much better job than i could of commenting, and I'm sure his comments are taken much more seriously than mine, I won't add to them. I do think Doodler may just have missed one:
Originally Posted by AndrewP
S acknowledges that in her last relationship that she rushed things and that it did damage to the kids and herself. She doesn't want to make that mistake again. S17 is still in therapy undoubtedly in part because of the stress of it.
Just read that a couple of times. This should really be considered - especially in an effort to keep history from repeating itself. I always feel for the children involved in any of these sitches, and yes 17 is still a child. S12 is also obviously expressing some signs and trying to get his voice heard. But the train still keeps barreling down the tracks.
None of us here know all of the details - how could we. But take Andrew and S out of the picture and plop in any two people and it's hard to argue that this all seems messy - really messy. Rationalization can always try to make it less so, but it's messy. And that text message on NYE - wow. Just remember, if they will do it with you, they will do it to you. I wish there was a way to slow this train down. Doodler?
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Doodler and Don have made some good points here. My question is...if you are looking forward and not in the rear view mirror now....are you willing to take on all of the baggage that S is bringing to the table? Are you willing to bring her kids into your home and have them live there, if a move should come to pass? S and her son, both, have health issues and I'm looking ahead and I see Andrew taking on a boatload of issues that he may regret, if and when they move in and yes, 3 months from the date that they move in, you will be ready to pull your hair out because things will not be as neat and tidy as you are use to. The dog will be running your cats in circles and then some excuse will be given that the stairs are too much and the cats have to go, etc.
Andrew, right now, and I may be wrong, but those rose colored glasses are too rosy. Yes, S sounds wonderful...but really...do you want all of that additional baggage that will come w/S?
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Why does dating her have to involve anybody moving in until her kids are grown? I think you'd be happier with your own place, for all the reasons posted above.
As for your son moving out - why are you in such a rush to have him move out? And why aren't you paying more attention to what may be mental health issues on his part? Kids today are not as independent as we were in my day (in part because financially it's a lot harder to make it today as a young person). I think your son actually needs more of your time. Pushing him out to make room for S and her sons to move in would be a bad move for your relationship with your son. I know you're frustrated with your son but don't underestimate the pain this divorce may have caused him. Carve out some quality time with him.
And her sending that text to her ex on New Year's Eve? Huge red flag, really. Says to me either 1) she's ruthless in a way that doesn't bode well for your future with her, or 2) she's still emotionally involved with her ex and wants to push his buttons to see if he'll step up to the plate and whisk her away or 3) she's still emotionally involved with her ex in the form of anger at him (remember, the opposite of love isn't anger but indifference).
I have to agree with the others. What she did was a total D!ck move. It looks bad. Now she locked down a man who could give her financial stability, a home, and possibly insurance one day, she could finally let the ex go? And she had to tell him that on NYE????
And she is moving at lightening speed when she knows the last time she did that it caused damage to her kids???
It’s just not looking good on her.
Last edited by job; 01/03/2003:57 PM. Reason: edited a word
I like to believe that I am aware of the baggage train that comes along and am accepting of that.
As far as waiting until her kids are grown - well - that's a minimum of 6 years or more. So - no. I'm not sure why her having younger kids should be a deal-breaker even if it is a bit more rare at my age. I also like kids. And these kids are a pretty decent set. S has done a pretty good job of raising them.
I don't understand why she did that when she did. Perhaps it was to get the ball rolling and any one time could be as crappy as another. I don't know. I am confident that she didn't do it to be callous and hurt him nor in an attempt at attracting him. She is as far as I can tell indifferent towards her STBX and has no desire to have him be part of her life in any way. Since they don't share kids, it's just a question of closing that door. Perhaps it's part of her clearing the decks for the new year and the earliest she could do it based on their attempted reconciliation last year. I don't know and have no interest in asking. It's between them and I'm not involved even if yes, I may have been a casus belli.
S25 had another interview today which he thinks went decently. He is "very" keen on being on his own and is in a much better place than he was when he moved home a couple of years ago. I think not having Dad around all the time when he has his own place will be a big load off of him as well. There is no pressure nor any correlation between him wanting to move out - which he's wanted to do for a long time and my relationship with S. There is actually lots of room for everyone here if that is the way that it would play out.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
And she is moving at lightening speed when she knows the last time she did that it caused damage to her kids???
I think one big difference this time around is that the kids' opinions are being given a huge weight. They would have been a lot younger back then and - yes - people make mistakes. The boys especially are watching me like hawks looking for any inconsistency and regularly predicting doom to their mother. I think that they don't believe that there are decent men out there. Despite the betting pool going on here, I honestly have no idea on time-lines. S stopped by tonight for a bit and actually mentioned that she also has no idea on time-lines. There are an awful lot of moving parts to consider. It could happen this summer, it could be a year or more. I really don't know and neither does she. Just because a destination has been discussed doesn't mean that the train routes are all planned
Anyhoodles - thank you for your kind concern. I do appreciate it even if - yet again - I appear to be pig-headedly ignoring you.
Oh - and job - you made me laugh with your comment about the stairs. That was a whole different set of weird going on there.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I had a few questions regarding imagination, creation, intentions - you answered them.
Originally Posted by AndrewP
I like to believe that I am aware of the baggage train that comes along and am accepting of that.
As far as waiting until her kids are grown - well - that's a minimum of 6 years or more. So - no. I'm not sure why her having younger kids should be a deal-breaker even if it is a bit more rare at my age. I also like kids. And these kids are a pretty decent set. S has done a pretty good job of raising them.
Well done.
You can see a future, a heading, with S, her kids, and all the rest. It’s nice to see your convictions regarding your beliefs and regarding her.
I do agree that six years seems a little long. I also think 3 months is a bit short. But hey, it’s your choice of if. And your choice of when.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you’ve read my new post. Imagination is that first step in creation. It can also be a bit fanciful. Feedback, and a few reality checks are required to ensure one is not blinded by their own imagination and desires. For what it’s worth, I think you are seeing things reasonably clear and rationally. You are also seeing things with the right amount of irrational and infatuation. Both are needed for balance.
Originally Posted by AndrewP
I honestly have no idea on time-lines. S stopped by tonight for a bit and actually mentioned that she also has no idea on time-lines. There are an awful lot of moving parts to consider. It could happen this summer, it could be a year or more. I really don't know and neither does she.
It seems she also has a similar imagined future. Maybe even a similar view of timelines.
Go slow and build well.
The discussion of you being OM and when relationships are over - yeah that’s a heavy topic. And has had me thinking for a while.
Quote
The "we" that needs to answer when the relationship is over is a decision for S and her husband, not you and S.
Relationships are not very cut and dried. When is a relationship ship over? When does a relationship start?
It doesn’t take a “we” to end a relationship, it takes one.
A relationship is the feelings, the commitment to the other partner. Each person has their own internal relationship to the other. There is also the joint relationship, which is the more public and open commitment and connection that is shown between the two.
When partner A ends their R, their feelings and commitment towards partner B, the joint R also ends. But partner B still has their relationship inside them. We’ve all been here. A person will be in their R until they decide not to be. They control themselves and we control ourselves.
It doesn’t take “we”; it takes that one person to end their side of it.
How about relationships with long dead loved one’s, like a Grandma or a Father? Obviously the other side ended their R with us, but we can still have commitment, feelings, a connection towards that absent person.
This also brings up, “ending” a relationship isn’t really accurate. Relationships change, they don’t completely end. Commitments end, the R becomes far less serious, and far less important.
Using me for example. My XW and I, have 30+ years of connection. I will always have a relationship regarding her held inside me; I acknowledge that. She will also have a R inside her; will she acknowledge that, who knows. We have kids, there will be marriages and other events which will bring to the surface our changed relationship.
Lots of people have strained divorce, bad relations with their X; others have rather amicable coparenting lives. In both cases there is a relationship, and much changed from the once married couple.
S, it seems, has a while ago ended her commitment to STBXH. Her relationship with him is much less and tends towards the “ended” side of the curve, although never quite reaching that point. Kind of like an equation (example Y=1/X) approaching zero. (And for you math geeks {Y€R | X€R, X<>0} )
This is a bit of semantics and accuracy. However, seeing clearly does allow acceptance. I’m pretty sure you can accept her baggage, including past relationships.
To me seeing that relationships change instead of die, helps. In this case it’s pretty obvious that S’s relationship cannot be dead for quite a while - kids, insurance, finances, etc... Realizing there is a R and that it is changed, is better than looking for a ended relationship that can’t be.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Relationships are not very cut and dried. When is a relationship ship over? When does a relationship start? It doesn’t take a “we” to end a relationship, it takes one.
A relationship is the feelings, the commitment to the other partner. Each person has their own internal relationship to the other. There is also the joint relationship, which is the more public and open commitment and connection that is shown between the two.
DnJ,
What you've eloquently written sounds nice and thoughtful, but the fact is that both of them presumably took the "till death do us part" vow. It's my sincere belief that if the marital vows are going to be broken, then it should be decided by husband and wife without the influence of a third party. Is that how it works in reality? Not really, but I think moral high road is to stay out of other people's marriages until they've dissolved their marriage. Why do I feel strongly about it? It's because I've been on both sides of the equation.
I met my wife (now XW) when she was still married. She and her husband were having marital difficulties and financial issues. I heard all about her terrible husband. She said he was a pathological liar and he accused her of having affairs as well as a long list of other complaints. She pursued me, but I didn't think about the irony of the situation. She was beautiful and needed to be saved from the the terrible demon that was her husband. I went bonkers over her. I'd never been married and I never thought about the fact that I was the OM. I was simply doing the right thing by saving the damsel in distress.
But, you know what? After we'd moved in together, I told her that I thought it was wrong that I had dated her (and did the naughty with her) before she was divorced. I felt guilty about that. The years went by; we had a happy marriage, two boys, a nice house and nice cars. And then a guy came along. He was "just a friend." I remember one day back then, just before the "friend" came along, she hugged me at whispered in my ear, "You're the love of my life." A short few months later she was telling me that I was a narcissistic psychopath. That's when I began to recall her ex-husband, the pathological liar. That's when I realized I was now on the other side of that equation. I'd reaped what I'd sowed. I began to understand what her ex-husband went through. I felt very guilty to say the least.
I could go on, but you get the picture. My belief is that the morally correct and prudent thing to do is to NOT date married people. It's not worth the guilt that you suffer and the pain that you cause others. It's not right. I think marriage as an institution should be respected. In my opinion that means taking the high road and allowing the spouses work through their problems or get a divorce. In my particular case, I'd have a lot less guilt.
What would've happened way back then, if I told the woman that became my wife that we'd have to wait until after her divorce before I would date her? I suspect she'd have found another knight in shining armor who would help the poor damsel in distress escape from the evil villain that was her husband.
Seriously, very, very good points - I think even more so as when things come from me or the "regulars" it's one thing but when Doodler gets all serious it's something to really pay attention to.
