I definitely want moving out to be his idea. BUT, I also feel like it lets me take back a little of the power to be the one to say this isn't working and he needs to go, which is helpful for me personally to take back a little self-respect. While I've been focusing on the DB strategies and our R (how we get along etc.) much of that has been empowering for me because I have seen improvement in our interactions, plus the side benefits of GALing, getting in shape, etc. Now, though, that empowering feeling has started to fade, and I'm feeling like I don't want to be in an R with someone who is so disrespectful and weak that he's unable to stop communicating with AP.
I guess I need to do some more thinking about what I am and am not OK with. I basically am done with him living here and continuing the R with AP. I'm sure I'll backslide when he actually does go and the kids and all that... but I'm ready to say I'm not OK with things continuing as they are.
I hear the "less is more" in communicating but I just don't see that happening with us given our R and how we communicate... though maybe I can focus on validating and listening more rather than speaking. (180!!) I also don't want to hear about his feelings for AP. That is another boundary for me-- it just isn't necessary and is hurtful. I don't give a s**t about how he feels about her, honestly. I care more about his actions towards me and the kids and how his continued pursuit of another R is damaging our family.
W, on the NC wishful thinking-- you're right-- it is just that the timing of his parents' visit is super awkward and I'm not sure I can stick it out with them here and pretending everything is OK. (I'm feeling a bit more empathetic now for him totally withdrawing when my parents were here.) So I'm just thinking through what this all means, if we have this conversation now and they get here in a week-- the likelihood is he won't have another place to go, he won't want to blow anything up in a major way right before or while his parents are here, but at the same time *I* really don't want to keep stringing this whole thing out and keeping the status quo for another three weeks.
I guess I am thinking that I'm OK with him staying here and continuing some level of family-like behaviors while his parents are here, only if he can commit to and prove to me he isn't in touch with her. That doesn't mean that he's deciding today he wants to commit to the R, but it does mean that he can't live here and keep talking to her. Maybe that keeps limbo going a little longer. But I'm having a hard time figuring out how to stand up for my own health and well-being while his parents are here.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
may ~ Gentle question: Why do you want it to be his decision to move out?
Also, it is entirely reasonable to set a boundary regarding him talking about his feelings about OW: "I will not entertain a discussion about your feelings for her." You can say this calmly and then walk away. You don't need to validate absolutely everything.
The reason I want it to be his decision is that I know how much it is going to devastate the kids, and I don't want to be any sort of party to that. He needs to be the one to take responsibility for doing this to the family. He needs to be the one to tell them. I'm not going to sit down and be any sort of party to a "Mommy and Daddy decided this is best but we both love you very much.." kind of thing-- of course, the "we both love you very much" is true and I'll say that till I'm blue in the face, but all of what is happening now was his choice, not mine.
Yes, partially I don't want to give him the easy, guilt-reducing out of "my wife kicked me out" or whatever... but more so, at the end of all of this, more than anything I want to know deep in my own heart that I did absolutely everything I could to make this M and this family work for my kids. I want to be able to look them in the eyes and know this was not my doing.
Also, one of the biggest areas of anger for me on all of this is that I haven't felt he has really tried to make it work-- he got involved with this woman while we were in the middle of MC. Through all of this trauma we have both learned a lot about each other, improved our communication, and I've come to a very different place in terms of how I feel about physical affection and sex. He (whether he will admit it or not) has also vastly improved his communication, anger management, and tremendously stepped up his game in terms of being a more equitable partner in household tasks. We are very, very good friends-- he still says "best friends"-- and I'm angry that he isn't willing to actually try to see if we could make a go of it and fall back "in love" because he's so obsessed with this girl. I have felt like if I knew in my heart we had both given our MR our 100% attention and energy for a decent period of time-- together-- and it still didn't work, then I could see parting as friends. But I have a lot of anger about his half-a$$ed "trying" and his involvement with another person. So maybe it is me being a little vindictive to make him do all the heavy lifting on moving out and breaking up the family. But I don't want him to be able to say it was a joint decision.
If that ends up meaning I need to suffer through more of this limbo, I guess I will. For whatever reason, him moving out and the havoc that will wreak on our kids, not to mention friends, family, etc is a bright line for me. I have felt like I could forgive anything but that-- up till now he's only hurt me, but when the kids get involved it takes it to a whole new level of unforgiveability. And I know that may change in the future (thanks Blu for the gentle push on this) but for now, I feel like getting the children involved is a major step I'm not willing to take, and if he wants that, he has to do it.
(Clearly I'm not detached!!)
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I feel your pain. You summed up how I feel with my sitch almost exactly. My W is so deep in her EA she can’t see one foot in front of her. Uses all the MLC jargon about not being able to re-fall in love, blah blah blah. Then says things like “drive safely” to me as I leave for work in the morning. I recently told her I was letting her go. We are heading toward D mediation soon.
I guess my advice is to not try to figure H out at all. He is a mess right now and you can’t get inside his foggy head. Keep taking care of yourself and the kids and hang in there!
Interesting new tidbit of information-- they've been seeing each other since they first met, more than 2 years ago. And it has been a PA a long time-- sounds like at least a year, maybe more like a year and a half. Used condoms at first, they're both clean so not anymore. They had sex the last time he saw her (November). Thanks to Steve85 and others, I wasn't that surprised, though the length of time it has gone on was pretty f*ed up.
I told him to get out, I can't live like this. He said he owns half this house and if I want to go I should go. I said that was not going to happen. This is my house and my family. He is the one who has made these choices, not me.
He keeps harping on the SSM and that I caused this. He got angry multiple times. He repeated over and over that we would NEVER have a sexual relationship if we got back together. He is not attracted to me, he doesn't ever want to have sex with me, when we did he felt terrible afterwards. That I caused this.
[Then... I am sure I'll get 2x4s for this, but we got into a conversation with him being all PO-ed that I *now* am interested in becoming a sexual being-- something we had talked about since BD. We talked about the sex we did have recently and I told him he had said one night he felt bad because he wanted "animalistic" sex and that wasn't what he thought I wanted. I said to him i thought about it and I wasn't opposed to animalistic sex but it had to be good sex, not shi**y slam-bam-thank-you-maam like we've been having. He then said let's do it now, I'll make it good for you, etc. I was totally confused... called his bluff... he was INDEED very interested. So we did let off some steam, much better than recent history. I honestly feel 0% emotion related to it and we were able to talk without anger about a number of things afterwards. I have zero expectations and am surprised I was actually interested in doing it, probably as surprised as I was that he wanted to. After he was like "you are a different person" (I think he wants to keep me in this asexual box) and we talked for awhile about sex generally.] Anyway... I'm sorry if I disappointed anyone with this, but I was frankly curious to see if he'd take it that far after yelling at me multiple times we would NEVER have sex again blah blah blah.
We talked for a long time. No real resolution. He knows where I stand-- he needs to go, we won't be friends, etc. He thinks I'm "a better person" than this-- when push comes to shove, I'll be friends with him in a D because it is in the best interest of the girls. And if I am not OK with him owning half the house and having access to it, he'll push for 50/50 custody. I said fine. (I sincerely doubt that would ever have been a real option anyway). He backed down, complaining I'm not focused on the best for the girls.
We talked about the trip. He wasn't as angry as I thought he would be but is continuing to refuse to accept it won't happen. At one point he said he was looking forward to this trip second only to the births of our daughters. (I got a lot of "if you really loved me you would XYZ, set me free, etc. MLC, anyone?) I told him he had earlier told me he didn't want to stay married just for these trips and I wanted to tell him now before he had gotten too far down the planning path. he said he thought he maybe did want to stay married just to go on these. UGH... I think this is his "we are technically married but I still do whatever the F I want, we sleep in different bedrooms (this was a condition he told me if we stayed married) version of M.
We laid out a few different paths.
One, he goes, finds a place, we get a non-amicable divorce, he tries to make it work with AP. (She may move here.) We are not friends. (He doesn't believe I will follow through on this.)
Two, he moves to the basement for three months and we reevaluate after that. If he does this, he needs to commit to NC with AP. We talked about what that might look like and how I could trust he was really NC-- I gave him some pretty in-your-face examples, like he would call her with me on the line to tell her they were over, he shared with me the mechanics of how they contacted each other in the past and was transparent with me so I could know I could check if needed, etc. He said he is thinking about this (which was a huge surprise to me, to be honest-- I just wanted to have it as a possibility.) If he does this, my plan would be to be as dark as possible during the S as well.
Three... I don't really know. He stays? Knows he has to completely cut it off with AP? Which seems impossible? I tried to get him to tell me before he went to bed (in the office-- I told him he is no longer sleeping in my bed) what he thought his options were and he was like I don't know. I want you to tell me. I want us to decide together. I am trying, I have been trying for all these years because I am still here and didn't leave. We (AP and H) have tried so many times to cut things off and we couldn't. He spoke to her today (anniversary of her BIL's death, which he had told me sparked the EA but in fact they had already been in a PA for a year and had cut it off a month or so before, but she called him because she had "no one else to talk to" about her BIL's death). He told me he asked her today if she thought they would have cut things off completely if her BIL hadn't died and she said yes, she would have moved on. He said she is going to pieces about all of this and she's told him she's done. (He is all sorts of messed up about this, he is also worried that now he'll tell her he's told me everything and she'll be like why did you do that??? and dump him too, because she doesn't want to be that person.) He doesn't think he is limerent with her because they've gone through so much, been together on and off for two years-- he thinks this is the real thing. He recognized there was a stage of limerence but feels that is over. He does recognize they haven't spent all that much time together etc and so don't REALLY know if they could make it work in the long term but continued the deep emotional connection talk, she loves him, she makes him feel special, she wants him, she understands him, blah blah blah. (U, I did tell him I don't feel I need to hear about how he feels about her and he mostly respected it though it makes him angry because I "just don't understand and/or am not listening." But it was just too much to hear him go on and on about her. However, it was worse when he started talking about how madly he used to be in love with ME and now that was gone.)
So-- I'm ready for him to go but totally mind f**ked about all of this-- I can't believe this has been going on for TWO YEARS! So way, way before we started MC. And, he won't f-ing leave our house!! he's like, I want to move into the office. I said, not good enough. He said the basement? I said, not ideally. Then (all huffy) so I need to pay a lease on another place? YES.
I said a few things that made him ask if I've looked into the financial ramifications of D, I said yes I had, he hasn't... but he thinks we can co-own our house, girls live here with me and he pays half the mortgage and has full access to the house. I said I'd rather sell the house than do that and he threw it back at me that I didn't have the best interests of the girls at heart. or, i could sell it to him and maybe AP has the $ to buy me out and the girls could live here. I did not dignify that with an answer. (Though it makes me think maybe my parents could help me buy him out.)
He said he didn't want to make any decisions tonight. He was very emotional and said he was terrified of getting D, of hurting the kids, of hurting me. That he loves me and his ideal is to bring the R we have now and have had for some time "into the light"-- basically good friends but not lovers. He can't believe his life has turned out this way. Etc etc. At the same time, he did try to blame me every chance he got for the SSM and that I was at fault for all this happening. I pushed back (thanks Blu!!) but it is clear that is the narrative he has told himself for all these years. At one point he was like I should have been happy he was getting it elsewhere since I didn't want to give it to him.
Anyway. Hurtful, awful stuff. Overall I think I did OK (except the sex interlude, though it really meant nothing except interesting that he did it). I cried a couple of times as did he. I was very consistent with my message-- I will not be the one to break this M up. BUT I was not willing to live with him if he was in a continued affair. And, I was not willing to contemplate a fantasy friendly D with another woman in the picture, ever. Sorry.
It was pushing 1 am and he was really tired (I know I won't be able to sleep tonight so whatevs) and I said while he doesn't need to make the decision now, he does need to make it... when? He couldn't answer. He asked for some time to process. I said OK but I wasn't faking it when his parents are here (1.5 weeks) and he said OK. He was planning to tell them. He said his mom is "prepped" (apparently he told her a couple of years ago that we had some problems in the bedroom. Her answer was to fix it.) He also said his mom is very pro marriage (duh) and I'm exhausted already thinking of what it is going to be like when they get here, regardless of where he is sleeping.
Glad everything is finally out in the open, if nothing else. Thanks to all of you for your continued support and prepping. I am not hopeful that our M will last, at all, but am ready for what comes next. A big part of me doesn't really understand why he isn't just going on his own two feet... I have suspected the PA for some time, also that this was a longer R than he had admitted, but this is much worse than I had thought. I kind of wish he would just leave.
Last edited by may22; 12/31/1912:23 PM.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I am behind again on reading here -- too much craziness between family, work, holidays -- but I did just read your update. I am sort of in shock. Wow! ....
I have a couple questions. Why did you sleep with him and what did you gain from that? Also, again, why do you think that by allowing him to stay in the house you can decide that he will have to go NC with OW? (this is a form of control and you cannot control him) ... I am so confused as to what your goals right now? Maybe you need some time to think about that given the new (and very upsetting) info ...
May, you know you cannot make him decide to want to be with you? Even if he goes NC with her and stays in the home, you cannot make him desire to be with you. You know that, right? There is nothing you can do (or control) how he feels about you and wanting to be with you. Do you just want him there, or do you want an H that wants you and respects you? ... I know that is super hard, but I think you have to wrap your head around that first ....
... I am not sure how much advice you want right now, but I do have some for you if you want it ..........
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I don't know why I decided to sleep with him. I felt like he was trying to bait me into saying no and demonstrating that I am not a sexual being. I really thought he was just trying to see what I would do and I wanted to call his bluff. I also felt this anger/jealousy/possessiveness, plus the fact that he had been saying over and over literally minutes before that he could never see himself in a sexual R with me, that when we did have sex he felt horrible about it afterwards, etc., that I kind of wanted to see it through after he was saying all that stuff. Not proud of it but there you go.
He doesn't want to leave the house. He says I can't make him leave, he is half owner, if I want to go I can go. Which I categorically refuse to do. I said I didn't think the office was good enough and the basement wasn't really either. I wanted something with a real separation. He suggested separating for some period of time, like three months, with him living in the basement. I said the only way I could see that working is if he was not in contact with her at all and could prove it to me. I threw that out there, not thinking it was a real option, and was pretty surprised when he told me that he is thinking about it.
He cried and said he is so deeply ambivalent about what to do. He's been working this through with his IC for a year and can't decide. He said he is incredibly fearful of D but he also doesn't want to give up a chance at happiness with AP and with her he realizes what a healthy sexual R is like, someone who really cares about HIM, etc. I guess yesterday she told him (yet again) she's done... I think a big part of him would welcome three months of NC with both of us so that he can have some mental rest. He feels like either he hurts her or he hurts me and the kids, and he'll be hurt no matter which choice he makes. He feels paralyzed and is mentally unwell. (join the club)
He also really wants to find some path of S/D where we continue to be best friends and travel partners, living ("ideally on the same property, but maybe next door") with AP. I just kept repeating that will never happen, that if he leaves me for this woman I simply cannot work through some fantasy best friend co-parenting R with him. I have said I could imagine getting to that point if, if if if, we both tried our best to work on our M and decided together that we were better apart. But in the current scenario I'm not willing to have those conversations or consider that kind of co-parenting R.
I do know he doesn't want to be with me right now, and that I can't make him want me. I do want an H that loves and respects me. I would far prefer that person be him, for the kids... but I also am so angry and disgusted that I now need to revisit the last two years of my life with this new lens of him scr**wing another woman and telling her he loves her, I am also fine with him going and never coming back. Unfortunately that isn't an option either.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Sorry, one more thought in response to Blu's question-- he wants more than anything for me to say yes, we're done, let's get a D (he actually doesn't want to get D, he thinks we should just S, he never intends to get married again so better for me to stay on his health insurance etc. than get D until I decide I want to remarry. D is just a piece of paper.). He wants this to be a joint decision. He said he could have walked two years ago, or a year ago, or any day if that is what he wanted to do, but he wants this to be something we decide to do together. And I'm simply not willing to give him that, at least right now. I have said to him over and over this is his decision, he can leave the M, I can't and won't stop him, but I'm not going to make that decision for him.
So without me saying yes, please, let's get divorced and be BFFs and without him being willing to actually leave, that is how we got to that 3 month basement/NC with AP compromise. I guess if we do go that route my goal would be to detach as much as possible, see him as little as possible during that time and make it a real separation. On the other end, my two best case scenarios would be (a) I realize I'm better off without him and don't want him back or (b) he gains some clarity and decides he wants back in, assuming I'm still wanting that as well. He thinks we should see an MC during this time.
If he doesn't choose the 3 month separation/NC with AP route, I would really like him to go elsewhere and not live in the basement for true separation. I just don't think I can handle his proximity while he carries on his R with another person.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May: He's wrong. You absolutely CAN make him go. Get a lawyer right now. You can file for divorce and get an order requiring him to leave. I don't know what state you are in but adultery is fault ground almost everywhere. This is one of the most unbelieveable situations I have seen in a long time. I am so sorry.
What a piece of work. If he's so terrified about divorce, maybe he'll rethink his actions that have put it into motion.
