Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[may22]

Thanks guys...

I let myself get baited into a stupid argument this morning, and D9 got between us and begged us to stop. It was awful. And I can't help but think I just don't need this in my life. The kids don't need to see this. I can't shove down my resentment and let him say a**hole things to me anymore in the name of validation. But I also know this isn't anywhere near detachment. He still knows how to push my buttons, that is for sure, and it definitely brought me to a place where (out of anger) I was ready to say GTFO.

Then I (stupidly) called him on the way to work to talk through what had happened and explain how defensive I felt and why I responded the way I did. It did not go well (surprise!) and he ended up comparing the interaction to our whole M, where he isn't allowed to say anything (ha! ha! ha!) even when his way is the better and more logical way, so we end up doing everything in my less-optimal way.

I think I'm finally letting some of the anger and resentment about our sitch surface. The idea that this is actually probably going to happen--it isn't just a "rough patch" that can be smoothed over without the kids being affected-- is really hitting me hard and making me so angry with him. I've felt all along that once he hurts the kids with his selfishness that is what I can't forgive (and yes, Blu, those goalposts might very well move for me down the line) and now that it looks like it will really happen I am consumed and it is hard to not play right into his story line that our M is doomed anyway, we can never be happy together (why would I want to be with an a**hole), so why delay the inevitable.

U, thank you... I know it is a process, a very long process. I know anger isn't part of detachment. I feel like there are three paths in front of me for my own emotional state-- one is wishing so hard this wasn't happening and frantically doing what I can to keep our family intact (the path I've been on); one is letting anger and resentment for the choices he's making and how it will impact me and the kids get the best of me and letting that anger drive me forward (the path I feel myself inching towards); and then the middle path of loving detachment which feels like nirvana and just as impossible to reach. I think I need to just take myself and my emotions out of the situation and focus on the children and have empathy for what he is going through too, or I'll go down the anger path.

may- I would suggest to stay firm to your boundary which should be something like this: "we cannot plan long family trips when our M is not working". I would not hesitate to bring it up first esp if you think he's already planning. Burst his bubble immediately.

Do not be afraid of what he thinks, whether he's thinking you're holding the trip hostage/being vindictive etc. Don't be afraid even if this issue blows up and leads to separation. It's about your children.

First of all, on the finances front - are you okay with him planning a three month long solo trip? If his traveling expenses are going to impact your finances significantly, you need to address that and set that boundary. Second, you have a say in how you want to plan your daughters' summers also. Don't let him push you into thinking otherwise.

The finances, child care, actual real-life responsibilities-- this is why I pooh-poohed the idea in the first place. At this point, he's wanting three one-month trips for the next three summers. He has his own consulting practice and can probably keep up some level of work with a one-month hiatus, plus he is trying to get sponsors and thinks he can make $$ through blogging. (Mm-hmm.) If we are separated, I'm imagining if he wants to do this (which I don't care if he does, as long as he doesn't have the kids with him for more than a week) we'll have our finances separated as much as possible and he can spend his own $$ however he wants. I wouldn't be OK with him dipping into our savings, unless we separated that as well.

He thinks he's doing this for them, building an amazing lifetime experience that they'll always remember, but I think that is just masking the fact that he wishes he did something like this when he was their age, and he has missed out on all of this in his life, so is really doing it for himself. Of course they'd love a fun trip, but it isn't this hugely important thing that they'll never get to do otherwise if they don't do it exactly how he's planned. He brought it up the other night at dinner and for the first time the girls realized I wouldn't be there for the whole time (he said mom will be there for two weeks "no matter what" and looked me in the eye, I shook my head) and they were like no! Mom has to be there the whole time!

Maybe I am being selfish by saying no to this experience for them, but I honestly think a week-long experience with their dad is sufficient, and with all the trauma that we'll likely be going through this summer, I think being away from me for a full month is not going to be OK. (Let alone what it would be like for me.) It probably won't be good for them to have him be away for the other three weeks, but that is his call, not mine.

[WMLC]

[quote=may22

I've felt all along that once he hurts the kids with his selfishness that is what I can't forgive (and yes, Blu, those goalposts might very well move for me down the line) and now that it looks like it will really happen I am consumed and it is hard to not play right into his story line that our M is doomed anyway, we can never be happy together (why would I want to be with an a**hole), so why delay the inevitable. [/quote]

May,

I’ve had the EXACT same thoughts about my W destroying my family and causing serious damage. After 7 months, I’ve decided to grant her wish of a D. She’s been sleeping elsewhere every night and has essentially abandoned us. I am pushing for custody and want to get a fresh start. W is deep in MLC/LIMERANCE and it’s not going to change any time soon. In the unlikely event she comes crawling back later, we will deal with that then.

It’s a tough decision, as I, like you, value a family unit. But she won’t know what she’s lost until it’s gone.

Hang in there and stay strong!

W

[scout12]

May, I just posted some similar feelings about anger on my thread. Hugs.

I don’t think you are being selfish regarding his proposed trip. You are being the sane parent. He will want to be friends and play nice in order to get what he wants, but you’ll see the mask slip off once you set boundaries and put your foot down. Use your anger to protect you and the kids. Get your ducks in a row regarding custody and finances and get it all formalised. You will be able to detach a lot more once you can avoid discussions about these things. No contact has been a sanity-saver for me. Nothing is irreversible as long as you continue to stand for your marriage, so try not to worry what his reactions or feelings will be, or what they mean. He will come back if he really wants to, and you and the kids will be safe and happy in the meantime.

You can do this!

[Caligirl]

May

Sorry I haven’t posted . Sometimes I worry he will figure out I’m on here and my name so I’ll leave details of why I haven’t been on out .

First hugs as always !!! You are one tough cookie .

Second . It’s ok to be angry . The part of detaching is not to let his emotions over run you . Your emotions are yours and you can feel them .

Taking a solid or stronger stance doesn’t have to be mean . Boundaries are for you . Example . I will not sleep next to someone who is actively involved with AP. The boundary is for your well being not so he stops sleeping with AP.

I agree with Blu on many points . When I tell you the number one reason he came home was he was not worried I was out looking for someone else but the real fear that someone would just sweep me off my feet . The more the weeks went by and he saw I didn’t stop my life the more he just kept coming over . We went out other night with his friends . They asked how I got his crazy $ss to come home ... what I did ?? I told them I did nothing. I let him go with a smile . I did tell them the only thing I made him do was ask to move home .

Don’t look at your fight yesterday as the end all be all . Look at it in 5 days and how you feel .

I can tell you showing strength will be good for you . Coming from the other side of this it grew me as a person. H called me the other day he did something that was just let’s say heartless . He’s waiting for me to blow up . It never came. Instead he calls me and says how scary it is that he’s waiting for a fight that just never comes . For me detaching is the realization he has to live with how he handles his life . If he chooses not to support his wife when she needed it that’s his weight to hold . I live with how I handle my emotions not his actions .

The hardest thing is the children . I get this . It was like someone ripping a newborn from their mother every time they left with H. It could go either way , if your H goes maybe he will realize the grass is not so green and you rebuild. Maybe you will find strength in being alone and won’t want him back . Either way MAY is going to be ok !

[unchien]

U, thank you... I know it is a process, a very long process. I know anger isn't part of detachment. I feel like there are three paths in front of me for my own emotional state-- one is wishing so hard this wasn't happening and frantically doing what I can to keep our family intact (the path I've been on); one is letting anger and resentment for the choices he's making and how it will impact me and the kids get the best of me and letting that anger drive me forward (the path I feel myself inching towards); and then the middle path of loving detachment which feels like nirvana and just as impossible to reach. I think I need to just take myself and my emotions out of the situation and focus on the children and have empathy for what he is going through too, or I'll go down the anger path.

may ~ Loving detachment does sound like an impossibility. And it is... I don't think anybody truly achieves 100% loving detachment (whatever that is). But for so many of us stuck in the middle of these emotionally perilous situations, AIMING for loving detachment is almost always the right choice. Even if we get partway there, it's better than being held hostage by our intense emotions.

I'm right there with you on anger about what this does to the kids. But you know what? I moved out 6 months ago, and my relationship with my kids, even on limited time, is the best it has ever been. My kids are doing well. What wasn't working for them? My W and I cohabitating in the same house with a palpable tension for months on end.

What's best for you kids is YOU being the best mom you can be for them. That's all you can do. Whether you are married or not.

"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die" - one of my favorite quotes ever. I think there is a place for some healthy anger and resentment, but when it is all-consuming I think that's a signal to work on detachment because all that energy is not going towards your own health and happiness which is what you need most.

You are incredibly strong and going through one of the crazier situations I have read about here. Hang in there, things do get better.

[may22]

I went to yoga with a 10 minute meditation session at the end yesterday before heading home for dinner, and it really helped to calm down. I was fueled by residual anger and resentment from our argument in the morning (which basically just opened the hatch for the anger and resentment I feel for our whole sitch) and was considering opening up a conversation last night about him moving out and his trip plans, but after yoga decided no need to rush into anything, and capitalizing on the argument wasn't a good idea for either of us.

I'm still working through what I'll say to him and when about my boundaries. Tell me if I'm getting this right (I definitely am needing help still on boundaries for myself vs. controlling him):

-- I don't want to sleep in the same bed with (possibly, be in an MR with, live in the same house with...) someone who is actively pursuing an affair. I feel it is disrespectful, cruel, and just plain wrong. It is eating into my self-confidence and eroding any remaining trust I have for H. This is HIS CHOICE, but if he is unable to stop communicating with AP, he needs to go.

-- I will not be friends with, or play happy family with, a man who leaves me and breaks up a family for another woman. We will not vacation together. We will not eat meals together. I will hopefully have to see him and communicate with him as little as possible. This is for my own self-protection and healing.

-- I will not lie to the children (or anyone else) about this being my choice too.

-- I am not comfortable with my children being away from me for more than a week this summer, under the circumstances. Those are the ground rules and we can work from there in how he can continue to plan his trip.

And, even with all this on the brain, last night was a good family night. Ate leftovers, snuggled on the couch with the kids and watched the Mandalorian. Both girls tend to snuggle with me on "my" side of the couch, and if he can't get one to come snuggle him he scoots over to join in. I have been trying to not be overly friendly, but I have been responsive if he starts conversations.

I'm figuring the best move is to plan what I'll say and be ready the next time he opens up an R conversation or a conversation about his trip? Thoughts? I did say I'd go to see his IC with him with the express desire (from him though I 100% agree) for her to get a more rounded picture of what is going on, since all she knows of me is how he describes me and he's aware that is a very one-sided view. I know he's described me as "controlling" to her, and originally I was thinking it was a good opportunity to be calm, rational, validate, and state my desires in front of her. Now I'm wondering if I should go over my boundaries in that setting. He will perceive this all as threats-- if you leave me, I'll do XYZ-- and I'm wondering if it is better to discuss in front of a professional, or given the fact that she already has been hearing a litany of how I'm controlling and painting a threatening picture of S and D, I should stick with my original plan?

I’ve had the EXACT same thoughts about my W destroying my family and causing serious damage. After 7 months, I’ve decided to grant her wish of a D. She’s been sleeping elsewhere every night and has essentially abandoned us. I am pushing for custody and want to get a fresh start. W is deep in MLC/LIMERANCE and it’s not going to change any time soon. In the unlikely event she comes crawling back later, we will deal with that then.

W, I've been following your sitch too-- so difficult and I really feel for you. This thing about the kids is the hardest. I also have been thinking about the value of moving to D NOW to get the best deal I can with custody, etc. (he said I could live here with the kids 100% of the time and he'd still pay half the mortgage) but I just think that it isn't realistic that he'd stick to that once we got further down the line. I'm happy for you that you have some clarity in what is best for you and the kids and can move forward. Here's to a better 2020!!

May, I just posted some similar feelings about anger on my thread. Hugs.

I don’t think you are being selfish regarding his proposed trip. You are being the sane parent. He will want to be friends and play nice in order to get what he wants, but you’ll see the mask slip off once you set boundaries and put your foot down. Use your anger to protect you and the kids. Get your ducks in a row regarding custody and finances and get it all formalised. You will be able to detach a lot more once you can avoid discussions about these things. No contact has been a sanity-saver for me. Nothing is irreversible as long as you continue to stand for your marriage, so try not to worry what his reactions or feelings will be, or what they mean. He will come back if he really wants to, and you and the kids will be safe and happy in the meantime.

Hi Scout,
The mask slipping off... I know it will and I'm not looking forward to it. We both know how to hit the other where it really hurts, and I fear that is where we're going. I have been researching attorneys online and will try to set something up in the new year.

I've been following your journey and feel so deeply for you and am so impressed with how you have handled everything. One problem/difference in my sitch is that my kids are older and and my H is a really terrific father-- I can't imagine him skipping out on a visitation opportunity with them-- and while I would never take that away from them, I have moments where I selfishly imagine he is enough of an a-hole to drop out of all our lives and we could just move on without him. I envision my older daughter getting angry at me for "making daddy leave" or not being nice enough to daddy so he left. UGH.

Sending you hugs too, Scout-- you are so strong and I think your decision is the right one.

It’s ok to be angry . The part of detaching is not to let his emotions over run you . Your emotions are yours and you can feel them .

Taking a solid or stronger stance doesn’t have to be mean . Boundaries are for you . Example . I will not sleep next to someone who is actively involved with AP. The boundary is for your well being not so he stops sleeping with AP.

Hi CG!! It is so good to hear from you and glad to hear things are going well. I took your advice to heart on my boundaries in the post above-- let me know what you think. I like the part about letting myself feel the emotions without acting on them. Easier said than done but the idea makes sense to me.

The hardest thing is the children . I get this . It was like someone ripping a newborn from their mother every time they left with H. It could go either way , if your H goes maybe he will realize the grass is not so green and you rebuild. Maybe you will find strength in being alone and won’t want him back . Either way MAY is going to be ok !

Yes, the kids... I still can't really fathom this part. But I am starting to feel my own strength and understanding that I WILL be OK, no matter what happens-- thanks in great part to you and others on this board who are helping me to truly get this.

may ~ Loving detachment does sound like an impossibility. And it is... I don't think anybody truly achieves 100% loving detachment (whatever that is). But for so many of us stuck in the middle of these emotionally perilous situations, AIMING for loving detachment is almost always the right choice. Even if we get partway there, it's better than being held hostage by our intense emotions.

I'm right there with you on anger about what this does to the kids. But you know what? I moved out 6 months ago, and my relationship with my kids, even on limited time, is the best it has ever been. My kids are doing well. What wasn't working for them? My W and I cohabitating in the same house with a palpable tension for months on end.

What's best for you kids is YOU being the best mom you can be for them. That's all you can do. Whether you are married or not.

"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die" - one of my favorite quotes ever. I think there is a place for some healthy anger and resentment, but when it is all-consuming I think that's a signal to work on detachment because all that energy is not going towards your own health and happiness which is what you need most.

U, this post really resonated with me. Thank you. The idea of intentionality mattering, and aiming for something that I may not ever fully reach but is the right thing to do... that speaks to me powerfully. Also, really glad to hear about your R with your kids. I actually feel like both my R with the kids and H's R with the kids is now better than it ever has been also, because both of us have focused on being better parents and being more present. Being there for the kids is something I CAN do, and if this moves in the direction I think it will they'll need me to be.

[unchien]

may ~ In the line of "keep doing what works," hope you can find time to do yoga/meditation regularly if it works well for you. Meditation has helped me a ton with handling my emotions in a healthier way.

Regarding your boundaries:

-- I don't want to sleep in the same bed with (possibly, be in an MR with, live in the same house with...) someone who is actively pursuing an affair. I feel it is disrespectful, cruel, and just plain wrong. It is eating into my self-confidence and eroding any remaining trust I have for H. This is HIS CHOICE, but if he is unable to stop communicating with AP, he needs to go.

Good boundary. I don't think you need to explain your feelings to him. Just a simple "I won't share a bed with you while you are having an A."

-- I will not be friends with, or play happy family with, a man who leaves me and breaks up a family for another woman. We will not vacation together. We will not eat meals together. I will hopefully have to see him and communicate with him as little as possible. This is for my own self-protection and healing.

Good boundary. Again, "I won't vacation with you or eat meals with you while you continue the A."

-- I will not lie to the children (or anyone else) about this being my choice too.

I'm not sure you even need to state this one. Maybe the vets have more advice.

-- I am not comfortable with my children being away from me for more than a week this summer, under the circumstances. Those are the ground rules and we can work from there in how he can continue to plan his trip.

I think this is less a boundary and more a negotiating position. Just stick to it as your position.

As for the IC... what do you expect to get out of going?

Re: going for D sooner... I think most people here would say move forward when you are emotionally ready. Ignore the tactical advantages. Sure, he said you could have 100% custody in passing. As soon as the ball gets rolling, he may completely change his mind.

Re: kids... All you can do is be the best mom you can be for those kids in whatever circumstances. You don't know what life is going to throw at you. Just like we can't control the feelings of our WAS's, we can't control how our kids feel as they grow up. Maybe they will resent us for our parenting choices. Maybe they will want to move far away to have time and space. Maybe they will want to live next door and see us every day.

What we can control is how we parent them, and show them how we handle adversity. We can be role models for how to handle our emotions, how to be in the present, how to enjoy life regardless of the sh*tstorm tornado that may be swirling around us at any moment. We do our best.

I truly believe I am a better parent now. I'm not the parent I want to be, but I am better, and I draw a lot of strength from that. Focus on you and your kids, that's what they need. Kids are resilient. My oldest is almost 8, similar to the ages of yours, and I worry about his adjustment to this situation the most. He has friends whose parents are D'd. He understands it. I worry about him constantly and how this affects him. But it's outside my control.

[may22]

So if anyone is around and has time to share any advice...

I am fairly confident there will be an R talk tonight. We'd agreed to wait until after Christmas to restart any discussions and here we are... plus, our kids are going to a sleepover so we'll have the whole night alone, and he brought up the trip again yesterday with the kids and made meaningful eye contact with me as he talked about it. I think he's going to start making significant, difficult-to-change plans once we hit the new year. I know he *knows* in his heart that this trip isn't happening like he thinks it will if we aren't together, but it is part of his post-S fantasy and even if he wants to keep living in the dream, I don't want to be a part of it and I think I need to say it clearly and out loud to him now.

So...

I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)

Then I kind of want to leave it up to him to decide how he wants to respond to that. I don't want to tell him to go, but I also am not all that interested in him just moving to the office and continuing to pretend like everything else is fine. I think he needs to go. I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.

That being said, as many of you have pointed out, him getting to live here and have all the parts he wants of an M without being fully invested and having his AP on the side is not OK with me any more. It is messing with my confidence. I don't need a half-a$$ed H without some commitment to work on the MR. I have gotten to a place where I feel like this for ME, not to extract any kind of response from him, or feeling like he needs to feel the consequences of his actions. I simply don't want to be in the current situation any more. (Maybe I will backtrack on this but it is how I am feeling the last few days.)

Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him. I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids. I'll try to stay calm and validate, but stick to my position-- under the circumstances, especially this summer if we are in the thick of S and/or D, and with him being involved with another woman, I am not OK with being away from my kids for more than a week, nor am I OK with vacationing together like everything is fine.

His parents come in a week and a half. I think I'll tell him they of course can stay here but ask him how he intends to handle where he stays, and reiterate that I'm not interested in being his friend or spending time together outside what is absolutely necessary, if he is going to leave our M.

My best guess is he'll say he'll move to the office, at least for the time his parents are here, and then probably will want to move to the basement. I'm not sure this is the best option for my well-being. I feel like that might be OK if he commits to NC while he's still in this house (and can prove it to me). Thoughts?

U-- thanks for the encouragement on focusing on parenting. That really helps. I'll keep thinking about the IC and what I intend to get out of it-- ideally an opportunity to break up the echo chamber of his IC and challenge some of the assumptions that are part of what is taking place there.

[unchien]

I am fairly confident there will be an R talk tonight.

Do you want to have the talk tonight? You can choose not to, if you want.

I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)

Less is more with wording.

A good way to cut out words is to cut out any of your reasoning. You don't need to tell him you think it's not right or fair. You don't need to tell him why. Think of all these extra words as dilution of your message.

It doesn't matter if he thinks it is controlling - you set the boundary for YOUR health and well-being.

"If you continue to engage in this R, you cannot live here anymore."

Then I kind of want to leave it up to him to decide how he wants to respond to that. I don't want to tell him to go, but I also am not all that interested in him just moving to the office and continuing to pretend like everything else is fine. I think he needs to go. I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.

So what is your boundary if he continues in the relationship? I think you need to determine that boundary. It sounds like you'd like him to move out, but you don't want to tell him to move out, you want it to be his idea.

I completely understand not wanting to feel like the parent that is forcing D. WAS's are great at absolving themselves of that responsibility.

Or you could reframe this as... you want to protect your kids from an unhealthy situation.

Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him.

"H, I can tell this really upsets you."

I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids.

He will not see it from your POV. He may well think it is vindictive. Too bad.

U-- thanks for the encouragement on focusing on parenting. That really helps. I'll keep thinking about the IC and what I intend to get out of it-- ideally an opportunity to break up the echo chamber of his IC and challenge some of the assumptions that are part of what is taking place there.

Just as you can't control what your H thinks, you can't control what his IC thinks.

I think it's okay to go to his IC under 2 conditions:

1) You feel mentally and emotionally strong enough to handle whatever comes your way.
2) You go in with no expectations.

If you are hoping to upend the narrative of his IC sessions, don't go. Just my two cents.

[wooba]

I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)

1. Don’t say that you’ve been thinking about it a lot. 2. Just be short and clear and state your boundaries. Saying things like “if you choose to continue” sounds like exerting control to me. Maybe other vets have suggestion on wording.

I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.

You need to take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Maybe ultimately it will be D when you decide not to stand anymore. But either way I feel like you can’t keep this mentality of “I’m not going to be the parent who does this.” Sometimes you have to be the one to take action and it doesn’t make you a bad parent. Remember that the BD was from him. He is the one with the OW. The fear of doing something to contribute to the end of M might become your downfall.

Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him. I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids. I'll try to stay calm and validate, but stick to my position-- under the circumstances, especially this summer if we are in the thick of S and/or D, and with him being involved with another woman, I am not OK with being away from my kids for more than a week, nor am I OK with vacationing together like everything is fine.

Stick to your guns. Don’t worry whether it will upset him, just make yourself clear about what you want and what you don’t want. If you don’t want him in the house, tell him that. You should already assume that he cannot go NC with OW at this point, again this statement below shows you are still hoping for change at the moment:

I feel like that might be OK if he commits to NC while he's still in this house (and can prove it to me). Thoughts?

Don’t wishfully think that he’s gonna go NC if he stays. If you allow him to stay, you need to be able to drop the expectation and be ok with that.

Just my 2 cents.

Stay strong!