6 months of MLC

[cardinal]

Also—always trying to balance all this with doing something different/180s in terms of our relationship—I know H wanted me to be more openly affectionate, which he isn’t open to post BD, obviously. I’ve been trying to be warm but detached, but of course this latest reaction from H makes me worry I am appearing more distant than I want to. But maybe he’s also surprised that I wasn’t visibly upset or fawning over him before the holiday, that I was upbeat and strong, and therefore this is a good reaction from him?

How do I know what’s working? How the heck do I walk this line?

[OwnIt]

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but as with the blame, there is nothing you can do right now or "right" now. If you are warm, affectionate or kind, he will read that as pursuit. As you sitting firmly on the anchor. That tells him he can keep it up and you'll be there. That is not going to bring about the thing you want and only keeps you in a place of expectation and rejection.

There is only one version of DB. There aren't separate ones for WAH or MLC. Just chapters in the same book. If you subscribe to the theory, and I definitely do given what I see going on (which is a function of timing and my too-long-in-coming detachment), unless they really fear that they are going to lose you, they just keep running.

Basic question is the same. Do you want a relationship with who he is now on the terms he sets (subject to change at any time), that ensures you will walk on eggshells and pretzel yourself to meet his ever-changing demands and justifications? Or do you want to regain control of your own life and fill it with people who want to be in it and contribute to it in a meaningful way? Easy for me to say that now, and totally hypocritical because I thought all the same things and worried about all the same things. I just hate to see people throw away years of their lives pining like I did.

If you detach and focus on you and your own happiness, you will be more attractive to him (or maybe someone else), you will be the person he would be a fool to leave, you make the opportunity cost of remaining in whatever this is higher, and you make him worry you might be out there dancing with someone else. Maybe he comes back as someone you know and love and want to be with, maybe he doesn't but you've found happiness and made a life.

Which sounds more appealing?

[cardinal]

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but as with the blame, there is nothing you can do right now or "right" now.

Ah, yes. His words and yours have made this real to me, finally.

There is only one version of DB. There aren't separate ones for WAH or MLC. Just chapters in the same book. If you subscribe to the theory, and I definitely do given what I see going on (which is a function of timing and my too-long-in-coming detachment), unless they really fear that they are going to lose you, they just keep running.

Ownit, when you say "I definitely do given what I see going on," do you mean in general on the board, in your own sitch, or in this particular instance? Or all three? I've caught up on your sitch, and it also drives home that I have been at this for such a short time! I hope I can channel a slice of the strength and confidence and patience you've had. It really blows me away, especially as I'm currently feeling like I've somehow lost all the internal progress I've made.

If you detach and focus on you and your own happiness, you will be more attractive to him (or maybe someone else), you will be the person he would be a fool to leave, you make the opportunity cost of remaining in whatever this is higher, and you make him worry you might be out there dancing with someone else. Maybe he comes back as someone you know and love and want to be with, maybe he doesn't but you've found happiness and made a life.

Which sounds more appealing?

I'm not struggling with the answer to this question (pretzeling is exhausting and, clearly, nothing I do will be right!); I'm struggling with the reality of it. Why is it so difficult to wrap my head around what it means to detach not in the abstract, but in the concrete, day-to-day life kind of way? I think back to BD, and I see I've made progress in detaching, but as I feel I'm nearing closer to this new phase of receiving D papers, I feel I'm at square one again.

I'm being challenged to complete the next level of detachment. This one is harder: so far, I've gotten fairly good at putting blinders up to whatever he's doing/not doing while while I go to work and apply for new jobs and re-center myself in my own life and daily routine. Now I'll have to achieve a higher level of detachment while being confronted with the new logistical and financial and legal realities of how his decision is impacting my life.

[cardinal]

Well, after telling our mutual friend I hadn't said goodbye or Merry Christmas to him when I left Tuesday morning (though I had left him a short note that said Merry Christmas), H ended up texting me Christmas afternoon, our first text correspondence since Thanksgiving. He sent a video of our cats and said, "Merry Christmas." I should probably have waited longer than I did to respond, but I reciprocated with a video of my parents' new cat and "Merry Christmas!"

I thought being at home with my family would be a nice break from all the stuff going on with H, but it has been the opposite. Seeing them for the first time since BD has messed with the confidence and detachment I'd been able to build up since the summer. I now understand why it was much easier for H to stay home and avoid seeing his own family. I've felt the ghost of old H with me on this trip, as he'd normally be here too. I know he loved my family and enjoyed time with them—my family is close, and his is much smaller and not close. I think he felt he had more in common with my own dad than his.

I flew in to his hometown but have had no contact with his family, when I'd normally be spending Christmas Eve and day with them. His mom and dad divorced when he was young and my MIL always made a big deal of how they've remained friends, so I'm hurt that she's never reached out to me (other than a text sharing a horoscope that encouraged me, essentially, to move on) and didn't tell me Merry Christmas. I haven't heard from his dad either, but we weren't close like I thought I was with MIL.

I've basically been a mess here these last few days, heavy with grief for both my old H and the R I had with his family. I am not looking forward to returning to my home with H next week. I need to re-center myself before I do, somehow.

[DnJ]

Hello cardinal

I love your response to Own’s statement of counterintuitive. It is and was an Ah, finally! moment for all of us too. It remains counterintuitive right until it isn’t. And the by the way, it’s a gradual approaching of understanding, not a sudden moment. However, one’s realization that they finally got it, is a sudden moment.

It is similar for detachment and indifference. It takes time and patience as one uncouples their irrational attachment to their spouse and their antics, and a moment when one realizes that they are more detached than attached. It is also not an all or nothing kind of thing, we detach from certain behaviours and are fully in the grip of others - especially as they newly appear. This is the shown in your current situation regarding receiving D papers. That is new and needs to be felt, acknowledged, and accepted. It takes time. Be patient with yourself. A big reason why GAL is such an important piece of the healing process.

Why is it so difficult to wrap my head around what it means to detach not in the abstract, but in the concrete, day-to-day life kind of way? I think back to BD, and I see I've made progress in detaching, but as I feel I'm nearing closer to this new phase of receiving D papers, I feel I'm at square one again.

You said this so very well. “I feel I’m at square one again”.

But are you?

Think about that.

You can see all the progress you’ve made. You know you are doing well, you are detaching. You know you are passed square one.

Emotional detachment. It is the uncoupling of your irrational emotional reactions to H and his behaviours. Being detached stops the uncontrolled dragging your feelings around with whatever is happening, being said, or being done by H.

Seeing this intellectually can help with the process - which is to feel and acknowledge those irrational feelings. To rationalize your emotions, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

Indifference is the numbness that follows detachment. A non caring feeling towards one’s spouse. I found it to be so very helpful to do this in a compassionate manner. Finding compassionate indifference allows one to still care (our spouse is still a person after all), and not. I know sounds weird.

You can go about your day, concerned for H’s decisions, behaviours, etc... and realize (and believe - oh so very important to get this into one’s beliefs) that you don’t control him so he is responsible for his life choices and consequences.

A healthy compassionate detachment and indifference is one of the strong foundations that one’s healing and forgiveness is built upon - invest the time to do it well and kindly. It seems like a longer path at the beginning, but I believe it is much shorter overall. Of course that depends on one’s goals or destination they desire from their journey.

You are doing well, applying for new jobs, re-centering yourself, new routines, and such. The financial and legal ramifications of the pending divorce can, and does, pull one in. Mental assertiveness. This is business, treat it that way.

Of course you and I are not emotionless robots, so carve out some time to feel what is going on. Schedule it. Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect. A scheduled time to look at upcoming divorce is intellectual car stuff, mostly. Some of the feelings that stir are not the same fear based emotions that surface at other times. This shows your mind and heart that there is more than just the one path, that it is possible to feel something else. And that is a big step.

Something else to consider is your addiction to H, to your M, to your relationship. All perfectly normal, and a good thing when all was going fine. As you detach, pull away from H, withdrawal sets in. Sorry, but it hurts. Again, time, patience, and mental assertiveness will see you through it. Stop snooping, stop following H on FB or other social media, stop looking at pictures and getting lost down memory lane, take pictures down around your house, etc..

Some concrete steps that can be taking, and there are other to be sure. All, some, or none need be taken by you - it is your choice. And the healing affect from each is hard to see at first. Myself, I blocked XW, and took down the pictures of us, the day the divorce was finalized.

Do I wish I did it sooner? I honestly don’t know. I don’t look back and wish about things I could have done differently. I am happy with who I am and where my life is. The time it took me to get here, the path - it’s all good. I am cognizant of my choices, and accept my benefits and consequences of them. To be sure, for a while it was not that way, not by a long shot! Time. It does work wonders.

You, my dear, are using your time wisely. Keep investing well, for it pays huge dividends in ways one cannot even comprehend when in the thick of things.

DnJ

[peacetoday]

C

Its totally understandable the way you are feeling
Christmas is a tough time for many of us especially in the beginning and the first one--

Its good that you are feeling the grief and allowing it to pass through you...that will bring healing

The MLCers family will usually always side with them...usually until they start seeing odd behavior
and if you were close the MIL, that is another loss

My MIL finally came around after she/they saw how crazy XH Choices were and because they did not like the OW

Centering yourself is a good trait to practice
I use:

Meditation ...many utube and instructional videos out there
listening to positive messages or reading inspirational books may help
reading Divorce busting was helpful for me and learning about MLC helped for me to understand what this was, and that it was not my fault

As I look back, it was so very painful; but also quite a gift to reflect and change
there was so much support here and everywhere and hope too

Hang in there

[OwnIt]

Cardinal, you are doing great and this is really next-level stuff here. I love that you are taking it in and asking questions. When I see someone pushing the advice away or making excuses (you misunderstood, it's not like that, I'm not like that, he/she isn't like that, etc.) I worry. I know that person is going to spend some time in stuck and suffer more than they need to. I don't get that with you at all. I see someone doing a great job of processing a really sh&tty deal.

Sorry if I was vague. I was referring to OD. He was stuck for a long time and I think it was because I was stuck and not moving on. Now that he sees I've done that, he seems to be moving along much better. But who knows.

I love what DnJ said. Helped me understand my own distinction between detachment (which I've had a while) from indifference (which I reached some time over the late summer). For me, indifference is detachment without expectation. Last year I was detached when OD started his circle in, and I didn't handle it well because I still had expectations. Aha I thought, he we go. The limbo was killing me. So I pushed him, hard. And he ran hard and fully embraced his new life in every way possible. Do I regret it? Nope. I needed that and I think he did too. This time, I truly don't care what he does and I don't care how it works out. I know that I will be great with whatever happens because I've actually made a life for myself.

We all know we should detach, but it is hard and different for every person. Like pain, there are layers to it (like an onion). As DnJ said, it happens piecemeal. I have gotten the D papers. It was a bit of a gut punch even though I instigated it, but that quickly went away and I felt good about it. But then OD made it clear that it wouldn't happen without major drama and expense, so I let him undo it. I think the next time I'll still feel a punch, but it will dissipate even faster. I'm told you mourn the divorce even if you wanted it.

Take it day by day. It is an addiction. When it is accompanied with high drama (as my ending with OD was) then the addiction is more potent and lasts longer. When you are jonesing to contact him or mix it up with him, try to wait an hour. If you make that hour, make it three, if you make that, make it a day. Eventually the itch will stop. Every time I gave in to that itch I have regretted it.

Here's what I know. When you stop contacting them. They will contact you. OD messed with money and I freaked out. So he knew that's all he had to do. When I stopped freaking out, he stopped messing with money. Then he started with the lawyers and I freaked out. The next time he did it, I didn't respond at all. Guess what, he contacted me. I responded right away. Yes OD, if you want to talk to me you have to contact me yourself. Not do something crazy to make me contact you. When I see the cray cray, I go as silent as can be.

[cardinal]

DnJ, Peacetoday, Ownit, thank you all so much for this support. It warms my heart that people I don't even know are taking the time to offer it here, especially during the holidays. I'm still re-reading and sitting with all of it.

Emotional detachment. It is the uncoupling of your irrational emotional reactions to H and his behaviours. Being detached stops the uncontrolled dragging your feelings around with whatever is happening, being said, or being done by H.

Seeing this intellectually can help with the process - which is to feel and acknowledge those irrational feelings. To rationalize your emotions, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

My brain seems to be so slow in grasping this. But as you said, I can see I've made some progress. I can continue to work on observing my emotions but not letting them dictate how I react. I know I've made strides in this, because I often have to remind myself H hasn't seen this anguish, since I haven't externalized it in his presence. I'm thinking of it like this: As in meditation, I can become a detached observer of my own feelings and thoughts—without judging them, which seems to be the harder step for me too.

Indifference is the numbness that follows detachment. A non caring feeling towards one’s spouse. I found it to be so very helpful to do this in a compassionate manner. Finding compassionate indifference allows one to still care (our spouse is still a person after all), and not. I know sounds weird.

I have sometimes observed this feeling of numbness in myself, and it has both felt okay and scared me a little—I guess it's because it's the opposite of what I felt before all this happened. I think it's key for me to keep in mind indifference does not have to exclude compassion. But! This is key for me too: compassionate indifference also means giving up wishing I could step in and fix things.

This next part about setting aside time to feel what's going on is a little fuzzier to me.

Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect.

What does it mean, I am asking myself, to separate my feelings surrounding, for example, my H potentially filing for D, from the event itself?

For me, indifference is detachment without expectation. [...] We all know we should detach, but it is hard and different for every person. Like pain, there are layers to it (like an onion).

OwnIt, this is helpful to remember, too, because I know—as a person with perfectionist tendencies, as a person who very much does not see divorce as the answer in my marriage (it's certainly not going to fix the things H is struggling with, though it may push them to another relationship or area of his life)—if I am supposed to detach, then I'm like, okay, I need to do that right now, and I need to do it RIGHT. But I can only do it one day at a time.


All of this leads me here today: I can look back and see things I would have liked to have done differently in my M, and I have been working on what I can work on now, have spent a lot of time trying to understand my H's perspective in ways I never have before. I let him know I wanted to take the time to understand him (rather than respond defensively or dismiss his feelings). I took that time. I apologized for what I came to understand as my own failings in the M. H seemed to acknowledge that I am changing, but it's too late—that he's afraid things would go back to the way they were. And, as I mentioned in HopeCA's thread, though there isn't an OW as far as I know (or as far as our mutual friend knows), he's very much living a kind of fantasy life and receiving validation and appreciation from his new friends, who know nothing of his past.

So what more can I do right now for the M on my own? Isn't that where the letting go of control comes in? Where, as DnJ writes, I have to let my H take responsibility for his decisions and consequences? Isn't this the next step in what I do for the M and for the possibility of any future R with H (which I still want, I admit—I get a glimpse of how different things could be if he too can manage to continue to look at himself and confront his decisions and their consequences), which also happens to be what I do for myself?

That lingering fear: I don't want to look back on this time as I do now on my M and wish I would have done X or Y differently! But... I'm human. I at least need to feel like I'm doing my best right now—for H, for keeping any future possibilities open, and for myself.

[cardinal]

I also want to steal this quote from HopeCA's thread, because I sometimes feel pressure from others (and maybe sometimes I imagine it) to give up, and I am just not there. My H is for the first time beginning to recognize his own patterns in IC—is he taking responsibility for them? No. He's in rebellion and running mode, and all resentment and anger appears to be directed toward me. That he's stuck with his C this long is a miracle. I bet she senses she has to go very, very slowly with him. I want to have faith that a higher power will help him. When I find myself spiraling, I try to instead redirect energy toward prayer.

I get this feeling when I read through your journal, that divorce for you is the end - that you need to get him to turn around before this happens - I might be wrong - but if not then I am curious.

Are there some religious reasons behind you seeing divorce being the final nail in the coffin? Divorce is just a piece of paper, and if you dont want to give up, then you shouldn't have to - divorce regardless. But you need to come from a place of strength, and with your many concerns regarding how your husband is feeling, and how he is thinking, you are most likely not coming from there.

Show him, that you are capable of a life without him, because you were before you met him, and certainly you will be again - you already are.

Live life how you want to - dig deep down and feel yourself - who are you, and what do you want - not what does HE want.

[DnJ]

Hello cardinal

It is very good the idea of non-judging yourself and H. That’s quite a sage viewpoint you have, it will serve you well and leads to acceptance.

In terms of detachment finding a non judgemental attitude or outlook does give one a boost in all this.

You hit the nail right on the head about indifference. It’s numbness is at first - okay and scary. You know what indifference feels like now. Next time you can reinforce those realized feelings of numbness while still culturing compassion.

And yes, the release of trying to control is one of the key steps in this process.

... compassionate indifference also means giving up wishing I could step in and fix things.

Something to consider for you.

I found giving up something doesn’t really work. It’s impossible (or really really hard) to give up a desire. I wrote a lot about wishes, hope, and expectations and the ties between them all. It’s all desires, just with varying degrees of fantasy/reality and timeline/deadline or not.

For example, I wish I could step in and fix my XW. That is a desire I have. I have relegated it firmly into the wish category. It lives in the fantasy and highly improbably or impossible to happen realm. It is a wish, and no where close to a hope or expectation.

Hope is less wishful and more reality. Still a desire. Hope is born from the possibilities of the unknown and unwritten future.

Expectations are desires with a timeline or deadline. They are basically hopes that have a time frame, a deadline. The problem with that is a deadline is just that - a point when hope dies. Unmet expectations cause resentment which builds and builds. The only reasons hope would be unmet is if one places a deadline or timeline on it.

Hope lives in the realm between fantasy and reality, between expected impossibility and expected certainty. Some look upon hope as weak and remaining stuck. I assure you it is quite the opposite. Seeing the hope within a situation, sees the better possible futures and outcomes. One just needs to place their focus where it should be. I’m pretty sure you know where that is.

You need not give up on your desires; I don’t believe one can really extinguish them. However, one can acknowledge and categorize them, and learn how to live with them.

This next part about setting aside time to feel what's going on is a little fuzzier to me.

Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect.

What does it mean, I am asking myself, to separate my feelings surrounding, for example, my H potentially filing for D, from the event itself?

The rational and purposeful uncoupling of our irrational emotions to a future event is one of the hardest things to learn. And is it ever worth the effort to figure out.

This uncoupling is similar to letting go of fear. Fear is easier to see; the links between a potential outcome and the feelings associated with it. Not caused by it - associated with it. You see the potential outcome hasn’t happened, and may never happen. But we are afraid of it, paralyzed by it. Fear is a tangled web of irrational and rational thoughts and feelings. Being accurate when untangling helps immensely.

If that event were to happen - what’s left to fear? It happened. Now it is just a concern and a problem (or not) which one can solve or resolve.

The idea of the possible future event triggers an emotional response. Much like how our spouse’s behaviour and actions do while we struggle to find detachment. That trigger from spouse to uncontrolled emotional response is what one is working on disrupting and basically re-wiring.

Forcing yourself to look at this at a time when your irrational response is not active allows for a different point of view. Much like hope, you can see other possible outcomes. One slowly gains control over their emotional reactions, breaking or uncoupling the event, the trigger, and the response.

Mental assertiveness - sword and shield.

That lingering fear: I don't want to look back on this time as I do now on my M and wish I would have done X or Y differently! But... I'm human. I at least need to feel like I'm doing my best right now—for H, for keeping any future possibilities open, and for myself.

Have faith.

Focus on you. Do the inner work. Become the best version of yourself. Be compassionate and find forgiveness.

All of that is for you!

I guarantee, you do that and you will not look back with regrets of time wasted, nor wish you had done x or y.

You will find H and your marriage are not even in the equation. And yet the very letting go and growth may well be the very thing that allows a future reconciliation to happen. Counterintuitive.

The unwanted path that all LBS’s were force upon is an incredible opportunity, one that most people will never experience. Walk your journey and find all the blessings that await you.

There was a time I felt I’d never ever say those words and see things that way. I’ve never been so wrong.

Have faith.

DnJ