Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[KristinG]

May,

Blu definitely gave it to you straight. Not in a mean, "beat you over the head" kind of way, but simply direct. I can relate so much to you in how you must feel so completely at a loss as to how to handle all of it. I don't have any answers for you as to how you let go while living under the same roof. It almost seems as if for any progress to be made, he needs to go. I completely agree with Blu as to how limerent he is really acting. His head is in all sorts of places. Reading this through, I realized that my own WW isn't affectionate with me most likely because she feels guilty cheating on OW. Harsh, but true. How does that change how you feel about him sleeping in YOUR bed? I know you want to be non-confrontational and believe me, I get it. BUT, and I'm going to challenge you here May, what if one thing you could do to take back some of your power is to take back your bed?

"H, I will not share my bed with someone actively involved in another relationship. Please respect my need for privacy and sleep elsewhere."

I know that's a scary statement to make. I'm sure others could chime in with other suggestions for wording, but think about whether that might be one small step towards claiming your own power and space. Side bonus, it eliminates any awkward advances from his late night "cravings".

I know you'll get through this! Just be there for your kiddos and know that this is NOT your fault. Find strength May!

KG

[may22]

Hi Blu,
I'm back! Going to keep going through and responding... being methodical in reviewing each point is really helping me to process, so bear with me

On another note, I wanted to add that your measurement of things going well is wrong. You have stated several times how much better things are -- he is doing more around the house, he is helping more, he is more pleasant, and you even enjoy one another's company, you have family time, you laugh and you share beers. It almost seems like things are normal and so you want to believe you are drawing him in ... I am going to go out on a limb and say the opposite is true.

I think this is a hard one for me to get through my thick brain, but I think you're right. I have been looking for positive signs (partially because that is my nature, partially because my coach told me to keep a list of them) and this is something I need to think about seriously.

I do think, though, that there are two separate issues going on here-- one is whether or not any of this means he wants to be M to me (it doesn't) but the other is whether or not we are capable of a healthy partnership. A year or two ago, when we were constantly fighting and resentful of each other, I don't know that I would have said this would be possible. For me, aside from the "will we end up together" part of all of this, I do believe that implementing some of the DB principles around 180s and being more present for him has really helped our R, no matter where it ends up. I also feel less angry/vindictive than I think I would have if the BD had taken place when we were unable to connect as friends.

I've been reading AlisonUK's thread, and am just so taken aback by the weird, mean things her H is doing/has done. And then I try to take a step back and look dispassionately at my H, who has some of the same characteristics, like blaming everyone and everything around him when things don't go right. My H will also not verbalize what he wants, or go along with what I say, then blow up down the line because his needs never get taken into consideration. I've dealt with this by talking more-- OK, are you SURE you are OK with this? if you're not, say it now-- or, if it is something I really don't care about, giving the decision over to him 100% rather than just deciding which route sounds best to me at the moment. That has helped a lot... but putting myself in Alison's shoes, I wonder if the relationship issues that existed before all this happened are solvable. Is he just an a**hole? I guess the fact that we can deal with things like that much better now than we could before, and the fact that we are connecting on a friendship level far better than we had in a long time gives me hope that the R *would* be fixable if (the big if) he wants to work on it. In my mind, there are two parallel tracks going on-- does H want to be in the M with me (not under my control) and do we have the kind of R that is worth holding onto (partially under my control). So I've focused there, but perhaps to the detriment of the first track. Am I making sense?

You are actually teaching him that you are perfectly happy to be his plan B and you will wait in the friendzone and continue to serve up cake. After all, you both agree that the M problems are your fault, right?

I was reading Unchien's most recent post about his empathy and interior reflection when his W accused him of various things, that he really tried to understand it from her perspective and challenged himself to see what truth might be there. Maybe I fall into a similar boat here, although before BD1 (ILYB) I was full of all the reasons my H was at fault for any R problems. (One of the reasons H has given me for not wanting to work on the R is that he thinks I'm just holding in all this anger and recriminations and as soon as he lets go of AP and commits to the R, I'm going to hold this over his head for the rest of our lives.)

But I have now taken a really honest look at myself, my contributions to where we are today, and what kind of person do I want to be-- and I DO want to be someone who is passionate/sexual, someone who says YES to opportunities even if they don't fit into my pre-planned world. I used to think it was cheesy and kind of embarrassing to see married couples openly affectionate with each other, and I really discouraged my H from any of those behaviors. Physical touch is his #1 LL by far (which I know now but never would have understood back then) and I'm now seeing that I probably had/have an unhealthy repression about demonstrating affection in a romantic R.

Anyway. I think I'm rambling. All to say that some of the M problems were my fault and I own them. I don't think he truly owns his part-- he's constructed a pat story line to explain how he got into a place where he was open to falling for someone else. He has not been able to really even explain how/why he made the choices he did to progress from "that girl is attractive" to where he is now... but he doesn't regret it.

And he also knows you will wait for him to change his mind, right?

Yes. He knows this to his core. I don't know how to change this without something dramatic...

And he has been very clear that he is not with you and only wants her, right? In fact, I would also say that a large part of him trying to stay away from you sexually, is because he doesn't want to cheat on her ... ouch .... (are you mad yet, May? Because I am! I personally want to drop kick your H in the nutz!) ...

Yup. (Though I'm still weirdly not all that mad. I feel like I should be more angry. But I'm not.)

Some of the moments that H and I had the calmest and nicest interactions, were during the times he was most limeramt and attached to his OW. I think his kindness to me, and helping around the house and with kids -- and me accepting him and appreciating him -- actually absolved his guilt. It DID NOT LEAD TO HIM WANTING TO BE WITH ME. It was backwards and counter intuitive.

Yes, I see this-- and he has actually said to me that he thinks the reason we get along so well is because he's focused elsewhere. I have been thinking that was total BS but maybe not.

I am getting the sense that the DB coaches telling you to be the light house, remain warm and detached and to focus on the friendship. I don't know why and I just don't agree with it. That is why I said I cannot agree with all of the advice here.

Yes, this is exactly what my coach has said. H actually had a session with her last week and I'm wondering how it went.

I think that actually weakens your position and keeps you either as plan B or in the Friendzone. I am not suggesting you do the opposite, like stonewall him, be aggressive or kick him to the curb. But I do not agree that being a shiney lighthouse is going to l lead the affair ship back to shore. That needs to die on it's own .... and I happen to think it will need to die it's own natural death without your interference ....

So here is something I've been wrestling with. I have a lot of anger towards H for starting this whole thing with the AP WHILE WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF MC. I firmly believe that if he hadn't started down that path we would be in a really different place now. (She had a personal tragedy and "no one else to talk to" so started calling him a lot, then she needed his career advice, etc. It is like she was tailor-made to appeal to his giant ego.)

I keep thinking that if he can just make the decision to STOP this affair, go NC, and give it some time, he'll be in a place where he could focus on the M even if it is Plan B. That the reasons for wanting to stay don't need to be about wanting ME. But I hear you, that choosing Plan B will never be satisfactory for someone like him. Now he is a master at convincing himself of anything, so I have felt like if he chooses to stay and drop AP, he'll decide I was Plan A all along and thank god I stuck around. This is the same reason why I think if he chooses to go, that will be it-- he'll never allow himself to think he made a mistake, especially because it of the dire consequences of choosing to go-- the worse the consequences are, the more he needs to believe that he's doing the right thing for the right reasons, even if it was hard.

But... I know it is human nature to want what you don't have (I've been reading and listening to a lot of Esther Perel). He has me, he thinks I'm here for the long haul no matter what. How could he possibly WANT me? Is there any way to make this dynamic happen-- change these beliefs of his-- without something drastic?

I have noticed you have strong ideas about your bottom line. I was like that too. And I can tell you, it changed all the time. I don't think I have any bottom lines anymore. People and Rs are messy and complicated, and esp Ms. I think your belief about him leaving the family home being the final straw, and point of no return, will mostly change in this. And you keeping him there, will unlikely lead to you two piecing and fixing this M. Plan A might get fed up and dump him if she has to wait too long, sure, but recall you are still plan B .... Our number one goal right now, is that May becomes plan A ....

I'm sure you're right. I already have blown through multiple "I would dump him if..." scenarios that I had always held. I am just so terrified of doing anything that would affect the children negatively. I have been imagining my daughters' responses if we told them... and it is so heartbreaking I can't really even get through the scene in my head.

[unchien]

I was reading Unchien's most recent post about his empathy and interior reflection when his W accused him of various things, that he really tried to understand it from her perspective and challenged himself to see what truth might be there. Maybe I fall into a similar boat here, although before BD1 (ILYB) I was full of all the reasons my H was at fault for any R problems. (One of the reasons H has given me for not wanting to work on the R is that he thinks I'm just holding in all this anger and recriminations and as soon as he lets go of AP and commits to the R, I'm going to hold this over his head for the rest of our lives.)

But I have now taken a really honest look at myself, my contributions to where we are today, and what kind of person do I want to be-- and I DO want to be someone who is passionate/sexual, someone who says YES to opportunities even if they don't fit into my pre-planned world. I used to think it was cheesy and kind of embarrassing to see married couples openly affectionate with each other, and I really discouraged my H from any of those behaviors. Physical touch is his #1 LL by far (which I know now but never would have understood back then) and I'm now seeing that I probably had/have an unhealthy repression about demonstrating affection in a romantic R.

Anyway. I think I'm rambling. All to say that some of the M problems were my fault and I own them. I don't think he truly owns his part-- he's constructed a pat story line to explain how he got into a place where he was open to falling for someone else. He has not been able to really even explain how/why he made the choices he did to progress from "that girl is attractive" to where he is now... but he doesn't regret it.

may22 ~ First, apologies as I have not read up on all the latest posts on your sitch.

It is challenging to strike the perfect balance of recognizing what BOTH of you contributed to the MR problems. I think we all vacillate between self-blame and other-blame.

For instance, I don't necessarily blame my W, but I do recognize that she has issues that contributed to the breakdown of our MR (communication problems, mind-reading me rather than talking). I contributed my own baggage (lack of self-differentiation, anxiety, need for reassurance). I think most of these are fixable IF (big IF) both people want to.

What I don't blame my W for is: abuse allegations, venting 10 problems all at once, etc. Those are symptoms of the underlying issues. I think it's important to look past the symptoms towards the root of the problem. We all get really worked up about the symptoms. Symptoms are inflammatory and get us all twisted up in knots. Is the OW a symptom or a problem (or both)?

You are clearly going through the process of working out who you want to be, which is fantastic! (Regardless of your MR outcome). I also have realized I need to embrace life more and challenge my automatic patterns of thought. Make sure to celebrate these moments of personal growth.

Your H has a pat storyline. The OW helps him avoid confronting his part. He may never deal with it. He may continue to seek a lifestyle that allows him to avoid facing his issues... BUT... also keep in mind how hard it is for anyone to truly confront their own issues. True meaningful change is hard. Most of us LBS's are doing it because we have literally been forced to, for our own emotional survival.

Also, use caution when reading into the more positive interactions with your H. This falls into "Believe none of what they say, and half of what they do." You could be right that things are improving. Or he could be nicer because he has things just the way he wants. Or something else. MWD talks in DR about trying experiments and assessing the results, but our situations on the board are more dire and I think the "assessment of results" can lead us down false paths.

Hang in there, may, and Happy Holidays. Things will get better for you.

[Traveler]

We watched Elf too! And Home Alone on a rainy, cosy Christmas Day I've been thinking the same thing about the silver lining-- so much to look forward to as we get through the difficult times now.

It's hard not to smile at lines like, "You missed!" Again, amazed at your strength and how you let your love for your daughter guide you. Sending heartfelt holiday and well wishes.

[BluWave]

May,

Thank you for so much time and attention to my posts. I will need to reread them again. I must say, you seem to have a very level head about all of this. It's very impressive! I was such an emotional mess during that time!

For me, my 180 was to stop acting out on my emotions, without ignoring/stonewalling. I would bounce back and forth between being needy/pursuit with being cold/angry. So when I finally did my own 180 and stopped all that -- I matter of factly let him go and started to move on without him, that is when he realized I was removing myself from plan B. This happened while he was getting tired of OW and wanting out of that sitch. Then it was a snowball effect. ... I think your H will have to come to his own realizations somehow.


How was your Christmas?

Blu

[may22]

Hi Blu,

I really want to thank you again... I have been reading and re-reading your posts to me, and my responses, and doing a lot of thinking. I have copied and pasted the "queen of the castle" etc. mantras to my cell phone to read whenever I need to. It is helping, a lot, as I'm processing and moving towards where I think I need to be on all of this with him.

I *am* a mess at times, especially late at night when I'm trying to sleep. Writing it all out is very helpful, whether journaling or here, and I think it is what is keeping me sane. I definitely have moments where I want to lash out. That balance of having a PMA without being too nice vs getting POed and lashing out is difficult. I read a lot on these boards about "dropping the rope" and that you can't fake it-- I'm guessing that it was when you did really start to move on and let him go was when he realized it. I'm not there yet, but I think I'm making movement in that direction.

After a lot of thinking on these posts, I am getting to the place where I'm finally OK with the idea of him taking some significant step out, and that it is something that needs to happen. Whether it is to sleep permanently or semi-permanently in the office, in the basement, or to his own place, but (thanks Blu, Kristin, and Newbie) I really am getting to the place where I don't need to sleep in the same bed as a cheater, just to keep my kids from finding out. It continues to be his choice to keep in contact with her, and I am really coming to the realization that it is just not OK with me to have him in contact with her while still living in the same house as me and pretending we're a happy family when we're not. I'm thinking through how I want to say it to him and may post some possibilities here as I think them through. I'm also trying not to rush into anything right at this exact moment, but I feel myself moving in that direction.

I've also been spending more time thinking about the good parts of being on my own and what I'll do that I can't do now with him as a husband-- and what I won't need to compromise on anymore. (I think that will be a big 2x4 for him, when he realizes how I factor in his happiness as my H to decisions I make or we make as a family, and what will happen when that is no longer a deciding factor for me.) I'm reading a book on meditation and am trying to put it into practice.

Christmas was overall good, under the circumstances. I had some difficulties in the beginning with decorations, etc. thinking about this probably being the last time we do this as a family, but that is bothering me less now-- I can still do the exact same thing with my kids next year and beyond. Christmas Eve he got tickets for us to a football game, which was fun at first-- tailgating with a few other families-- but then it turned out to be super long and I got annoyed, as being at a football game was not my first choice of what I wanted to do on Christmas Eve, he got the tickets and I had agreed to go to because I knew it was something he really wanted to do. We ended up getting home after 7 pm, rushing through dinner and the stuff with the kids (putting out cookies and carrots for Santa and the reindeer) while I had a low-level resentment burning in my heart, which I know he picked up on. I finally was able to let it go, but I know I've been much less friendly towards him the last couple of days (mostly because I'm thinking all the time about what I won't miss when he goes, and the logistics of how that may all play out). I've sat out in the living room after the kids go to bed rather than in the TV room the last few nights, and he first asked me why (I said to enjoy the tree) and then both last night and the night before he decided to come sit out with me and pour a couple of beers rather than watch TV. I am reading nothing into it and we didn't really talk much.

Christmas Day itself was magical for the children and I got all caught up in it. They both 100% believe in Santa and we had a blast opening presents, playing games, and watching Christmas movies on a really rainy day (so no guilt for not getting outside and doing anything). H got me a lot of presents, mostly kitchen stuff that I don't really need but I know he put a lot of thought and effort into it. I had only gotten him one big thing (the girls chose fairly small gifts for him)- something I know he would have bought for himself anyway if I didn't get it-- and then at the last minute I felt kind of guilty when I saw all the presents he had gotten me so added another gift into the mix. Maybe I shouldn't have done that?

I think he had a hard time yesterday, maybe missing AP, maybe realizing this is the last time we'll do this as a family. I lean towards AP, which annoys me to no end and helps me focus on the future without a H who is moping around because of another woman on Christmas. He kept talking about things he wants to do to the house (which I kept thinking won't matter much if he isn't living here). I do think he cycles between thinking about leaving and/or her and completely forgetting about it and acting like everything is normal, making plans for the future, etc. He's definitely far better at compartmentalization than I am.

There is one issue that is a big one for me and I'd appreciate some advice. Part of his MLC-like behavior was to plan three month-long summer trips over the next three summers, which would involve him and the girls for the full month and I am supposed to come for half (since two weeks is the max I could take off from work). He's totally into this and is actually working on getting sponsors for these trips. When he first told me about it, it was not intended to include the girls (or me) and was going to be one three-month long solo trip. This was when we were in the height of arguing, before he started with AP, and I was like NO-- are you joking? Who takes off three months from life and responsibilities, work, kids, etc to find themselves like this? And he was livid-- I never care about what he wants, we only do the vacations I choose (BS), he's going to live his whole life without doing the things he wants to experience in life, etc. etc. He ended up deciding to split it into three month-long trips to include the girls, and by the time it got there our R was so much on the rocks, plus I realized I did not take his ideas into consideration so much, life is short, and that I didn't have a good reason for not considering doing something like this-- so I have been OK with it, assuming that I am there for two of the weeks. Two weeks is the absolute max I would be OK with being away from the kids, also-- in the past I've said I didn't want that for longer than a week. He knows this, doesn't agree with it, but it has always been my stance.

Anyway. In recent R talks I have finally brought up the fact that if we separate, this trip isn't happening the way he thinks it is. He is like why not? You are still welcome to come... I said of course I wouldn't, and I also wouldn't be OK with being away from the girls for that long. You don't get to leave your wife for another woman and then get to be best friends with her and travel together. It just doesn't happen like that. He's like May, we can do whatever WE want to do... and when I get skeptical he drops into anger and resentment on this really quickly. It is magical thinking at it's finest. I think he thinks if he moves down the planning path on this far enough I won't have the heart to stop it. But he's very, very wrong and I know he'll be incredibly angry with me. At one point a month or two ago during an R talk he said "I don't want to stay married just to do this trip" so I know he knows on some level it isn't going to happen. (And to be honest a good reason why *I* want to work this out with him is so that we can do things like this.) But I know he thinks I'm going to hold this trip hostage to stay married-- and there probably is some level of truth there, that I want him to realize that we make sacrifices and compromises for each other because we're married, and we won't be taking each other's needs into consideration in the same way once we aren't. For me, decisions will be about what is best for me and the kids, and I really couldn't care less about what he would want (especially with him leaving me for another woman). And I know that this next summer especially, if we're in the middle of separating/divorcing-- there is no f***ing way I'll be OK with him having the kids on a month-long vacation without me. He can take them for a week and I'll meet him there and bring the kids to my parents, or something-- but it simply isn't going to happen and I'm starting to think the sooner he realizes that the better.

So my question on this is-- do I bring it up? Maybe something to discuss when we meet with his IC? I've been trying to act "as if" on it-- as if we are going to be together and working on our R so that this trip DOES happen-- but I am no longer thinking that is a strong possibility. However, I also don't want to come across like I'm holding this trip hostage, or being vindictive. It is simply not something I'm willing to do if we aren't together, and if he pulled his head out of his a** and put himself in my shoes he knows me well enough to know this is true. I've thought I'd wait for him to make his move to separate and then once that happened to make sure he knew what was and wasn't going to be OK while we were separated-- draw up a written agreement in/re financials, when each of us would have the kids, how long vacations could be, etc-- rather than have it come off like a threat before he decides to go. But I'm wavering now and thinking maybe he needs to know before he gets too deep into planning, as that isn't fair either. Thoughts?

And the other super fun situation coming up-- his parents get here for 2 weeks on the 7th. Will he want to be in the office permanently by then? Will he want to fake it till they go? Do I? His parents are deeply religious and are going to freak out on him. I've asked him what he thinks his mom will say when he tells her and he says she'll love him no matter what... which is true... but again, I think he's underestimating how strongly she'll disapprove. That is for him to deal with, not me, but part of me feels like it might be better to have it out in the open when they come, also because I'm not really feeling like faking it anymore.

Kristin, U, CG-- thanks you guys. I hope you all had a great Christmas under the circumstances and next year will be AWESOME. Right?

And one question for Newbie:

Above post is what I said in a lot more words which were probably needed. This guy needs to be forced to make his decision to go to this AP and feel what he is losing. This is something I personally know. I was the WW in an affair over 20 years ago. Limerence to the absolute max. But when it came time to do what I had to do to leave my marriage if I wanted this AP, I just couldn't do it. And now, 20 years later, I laugh at how stupid I was back then. My AP was a single guy, willing to engage a married woman (what kind of character does that show) and he is still single. He would never have committed to me despite the BS I was told at the time. These people are single for a reason.

I didn't have the family commitments you do, May, and I still couldn't do it. Take Plan B away from him. He may go to this person but it won't last. I'm not saying it won't be painful but it will get resolved. Having him gone physically from your household will make you adapt to a new reality and when he does come back, you'll be in a stronger position to decide if you want him in your family's life at all.

Newbie-- what made you decide to stay and how did you manage it? Did your H know about it?

Shoot, another super long post... sorry guys. Hang in there, everyone... eat some delicious leftovers and hug your friends and family extra hard this year!

[wooba]

may- I would suggest to stay firm to your boundary which should be something like this: "we cannot plan long family trips when our M is not working". I would not hesitate to bring it up first esp if you think he's already planning. Burst his bubble immediately.

Do not be afraid of what he thinks, whether he's thinking you're holding the trip hostage/being vindictive etc. Don't be afraid even if this issue blows up and leads to separation. It's about your children.

First of all, on the finances front - are you okay with him planning a three month long solo trip? If his traveling expenses are going to impact your finances significantly, you need to address that and set that boundary. Second, you have a say in how you want to plan your daughters' summers also. Don't let him push you into thinking otherwise.

plus I realized I did not take his ideas into consideration so much, life is short, and that I didn't have a good reason for not considering doing something like this

NO! It might be ok to think like this prior to BD & OW, but now it's a different story. You have every reason to NOT consider doing something like this. You are not comfortable with it period. You don't need to explain yourself to him.

[unchien]

may ~

Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:

You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.

[IHCLACS]

may ~

Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:

You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.

Ain't that the truth how one week you are totally focused on your own life, and how another you can still be wrapped up in theirs. Its like almost being bi polar about the whole situation. Back and forth, pros and cons, need them, don't need them/want them. Things are great and new normal is great, then out of nowhere for no particular reason stuff crops up again, you have self realizations, move on, then dive back in. Like a lot of you guys here, it just lessons over time. Everyday I have to tell myself to let go completely. That this is what it is. Here and now.

[KristinG]

I'd like to second Woosa on letting him know that you aren't comfortable planning any long trips at this moment.

Also, U, this is GOLD!

Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:

You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.

I'm glad you had an enjoyable time with the kids and could see a future where you would be ok doing everything with just May + Kids. Happy Holidays!