I have been concentrating on the good the last few days. We have been preparing for Christmas. H has been happy and affectionate with the kids and with me: he brought breakfast in bed this morning and we have plans to take the kids out on a special festive trip later this week. My family will be around for Christmas and I know he's not going to find that comfortable, but he agreed to it and he hasn't complained or been PA about it. He also expressed to me what he'd need in the run-up and afterwards (some decompression time) which is fair and reasonable and it feels good that he's expressing what he needs in a positive way.
I am going to his IC with him in a couple of days. Not sure how to approach it. I want to listen, mainly, and I do feel a bit intimidated and self-projective (which is wise). If there's an opportunity to discuss any of my needs, it would be to do with his communication style - his tendency to attack, blame or withdraw whenever I ask for anything. I don't feel I ever get 'heard' in our relationship, and the peace we've had recently is as much to do with me asking for less or nothing at all than it is to do with him listening. I'd like to raise that, and I am afraid to - given that when he feels criticised (even mildly, no matter how I phrase things) it's generally quite unpleasant and we are on the run up to Christmas. But I don't want to be a doormat any more. I will listen and go gently and see what happens. Does anyone with experience of MC after a separation have any suggestions for me?
My only suggestion is that you state exactly what you feel. It is a valid need to want to feel heard and understood in a relationship.
He may recoil. He may be passive-aggressive. He may feel criticized.
If you suppress your needs, it will not promote a healthy relationship. Yes, it's scary. But if your H cannot accept that you want to improve your communication with him.....
Would you rather ask for what you want, and potentially have some relationship conflict as a result? Or would you rather suppress what you want, and later regret that you never asked, and feel like a doormat?
thanks for your reply. I see what you mean: I have to articulate what my feelings and needs are to have any hope of a healthier relationship, rather than swallow everything in the name of peace. It isn't conflict really that I am trying to avoid - I am okay with us disagreeing and taking time to talk through a disagreement. I am okay with agreeing to disagree, or compromising - I would welcome that. But there are behaviours of his that I am not okay with and I want them to stop, and my asking for them to stop never ever ever has a good outcome.
Sometimes - I would say at least once a week or so, maybe more (and I am not talking historically, I am talking since he returned to the family home) H will do impressions of me being upset and crying and saying things that in real life I didn't and don't ever say. When he starts like this it's very weird - he can't seem to stop, even if I move away out of the room and ignore him for a while. It's hard to explain. But if he's angry or feels criticised he will resort to this. He'll hunch over and pull a horrible face and rub his eyes and speak in a high pitched voice and say 'oh, poor me, I'm such a victim, I've got such a horrible husband,' and things along those lines.
Generally what seems to trigger this is if I am persistent about something he doesn't like. The last time it happened we were talking about arrangements for seeing family over the Christmas period. He is taking the kids to see his family. I've not been invited and wouldn't feel comfortable going and I'm a bit sad about that situation. It isn't his family's fault, or his, or anyone's really - it just is what it is and I feel a bit sad and that's okay. I told him I felt sad (I also very carefully said I didn't think it was anyone's fault and I wasn't asking him to fix or change anything, stay at home, talk to his family or do anything at all). In response he told me I should think about how his family feel and how they have every right to be disgusted by me. I said yes, I am sure the way our marriage troubles have impacted on them is difficult for them but I'm asking him for some care and empathy about my feelings. That's when he started doing the impressions. It's very odd and upsetting behaviour. He does apologise for it afterwards but it always happens again. He doesn't seem to be able to control it. I would say he's under a lot less work stress than he was last year and earlier this year and he doesn't seem to be depressed or anxious to the same degree he was earlier in this year when he was behaving terribly most of the time.
I have spoken to him about this calmly. I've said I find it disrespectful and it appears like it is intended to humiliate me. I've said that if he really believes I think and feel the things he seems to be attempting to dramatise he is wrong, and our communication would work better if I could tell him what I thought and felt and he could tell me what he thought and felt and would he be willing to do that. He says he is doing that. I've said that when he comes close to me and tries to hold me or kiss me, the sight of him doing these impressions and the sound of what he says during them rings in my ears. That I fear that's how he really sees me and that's how he really feels about me. And that's why I struggle to be responsive to him or want to be close to him. I have said these things in as calm and respectful way as I can. And it has made no difference. In fact, I'd say he does these weird compulsive dramatics a bit more often now as he seems to know that it has an affect on me.
So in therapy I want to ask that he commit to stopping that behaviour. That he can be angry or upset or mistrusting or whatever he is - and he is welcome to communicate that to me in words like an adult. But that I need him to take responsibility for this odd behaviour and stop it so I can feel emotionally safe with him.
First, I completely agree that bringing up this concern in front of his IC is a great step. Showing that you can do so calmly and respectfully in front of his IC may be very helpful, especially for his IC. Also I think having a specific episode to discuss is really helpful to focus a session. I think it's a great idea.
Second, it's really hard for me not to mind-read your H reading the above. It sounds to me like he is trying really hard to hold it together, but maybe he has some resentment which he can't always bottle up and it comes out in the form of these weird outbursts. Regardless, I think his behavior is extremely disrespectful, especially given you are trying to work through a difficult period of your MR. Honestly I am pretty angry on your behalf reading your post. His family is "disgusted" by you? These outbursts betray an emotional immaturity that he needs to work on.
I think a few months ago I mentioned that it's easy to change the outward-facing behaviors, but the underlying attitudes, thoughts, and feelings are the ones that are hard to change. It seems like your H has done some work to change the behaviors. These episodes seem to indicate the underlying attitudes, etc., may still be the same... there is no other explanation I can come up with for the bizarre outbursts.
Ever hear of the game Hero-Victim-Villain? You have chosen to stop playing the game. Your H continues to play. He views you as the Victim and himself as the Villain. As long as anybody is playing the game, the relationship suffers.
How are you my friend? I couldn't sleep well last night because I had a cappuccino after dinner. I got caught up on your thread. I have been thinking about what I could offer you. I was laying awake thinking about some of my recent posts -- I just came down pretty hard on May -- and somehow it felt more natural because I can see (or what I think I see) more similarities between her sitch and my previous sitch. When I read your threads, it is a bit harder for me to understand the dynamics. One of my goals moving forward in this community is to try and think about the differences and not give the same cookie cutter advice we keep reading here. When my H came home he was vulnerable and humbled, however your H has come back but doesn't seem ready to really do the hard work yet.
You have described your H in the past as being cold, a bully and even abusive. It sounds as if he has softened a bit, however you still have ambivalence. We talked about that ambivalence as being a natural protective mechanism and a necessary one. In your last couple of posts, you are describing things that I find very concerning :-( You don't feel safe talking about your feelings because he can't handle that, and so you hold them in. And you are also describing some strange, and cruel sounding, teasing. I am having trouble even picturing what that looks like. Can you tell me more? How long does is last? Does he mean it as a joke? Do you just walk away?
I get the sense that he is dismissing your feelings and justifying that by saying that you are "playing a victim." I don't like that at all. It is hard work to restore a M and it takes both people to be patient, kind, and willing to look at how they can change. I see that you are able to self reflect and make changes, but I am not sure he is doing the same. Does he ever just listen and validate how you feel? My fear is if he can't learn to do that then this M cannot heal. It has to come from both people.
I hope otherwise you are finding enjoyment in the holidays. This time of year can be hard.
What happened to Dilly, does anyone know? I miss her and think about her too ...
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
How are you my friend? I couldn't sleep well last night because I had a cappuccino after dinner. I got caught up on your thread. I have been thinking about what I could offer you. I was laying awake thinking about some of my recent posts -- I just came down pretty hard on May -- and somehow it felt more natural because I can see (or what I think I see) more similarities between her sitch and my previous sitch. When I read your threads, it is a bit harder for me to understand the dynamics. One of my goals moving forward in this community is to try and think about the differences and not give the same cookie cutter advice we keep reading here. When my H came home he was vulnerable and humbled, however your H has come back but doesn't seem ready to really do the hard work yet.
Hello Blu! I am in better spirits today. I've been unwell for the past couple of days and I had to miss the visit to H's IC that I agreed to make. I was worried about that - but he could see that I really was ill (I was feverish and needed to stay in bed) so he went on his own. We didn't discuss what they spoke about and I don't know when his next appointment is.
I would not say that my H is vulnerable or humbled. Except I know he lashes out when he feels vulnerable, shamed or anxious - so if I assume that is what's underneath his unpleasant behaviours, perhaps he's more vulnerable and humbled than appears. He does say he wants to work on our marriage, he's glad he came home, he feels happier these days. He generally seems more concerned that things are working out better for him than they are for me. We have both made some changes. It was necessary for me to make changes. I'm not perfect but I am glad he feels a little better about things. I worry he doesn't seem to have the same concern for my happiness as I do for his - though he's an acts of service man and less likely to express himself verbally than through actions.
Originally Posted by BluWave
You have described your H in the past as being cold, a bully and even abusive. It sounds as if he has softened a bit, however you still have ambivalence. We talked about that ambivalence as being a natural protective mechanism and a necessary one. In your last couple of posts, you are describing things that I find very concerning :-( You don't feel safe talking about your feelings because he can't handle that, and so you hold them in. And you are also describing some strange, and cruel sounding, teasing. I am having trouble even picturing what that looks like. Can you tell me more? How long does is last? Does he mean it as a joke? Do you just walk away?
This sarcastic, nasty behaviour used to be a feature of my life daily. It involved name-calling, mocking, doing impressions of me, talking in silly high pitched voices, hunching over (I am much smaller than him) and 'pretending' to be me, saying things I hadn't said then arguing with himself, pretending to be me. I used to get really upset and cry, which would give him more fuel for his mockery. Or I'd try to stroke his arms and calm and pacify him as you would soothe a tantruming two year old, and that never worked either. Sometimes I'd get furious and fight back (verbally, I mean - I have been verbally abusive in these moments in the past but never ever ever physically), which would escalate things. When we lived apart and I started setting boundaries he had no opportunity to act in this way. Now when it happens (much less often) I leave the room without a word and insist on an apology before we get closer again. He will apologise but it doesn't mean much to me, I have to be honest. The performance tends to last as long as he has an audience for it so leaving is the most sensible thing to do. He will sometimes carry on in a room on his own (I can sometimes hear him from other room) and sometimes me leaving is enough to get him to regain control over himself. He does not mean it as a joke: I have told him in calm times I find it upsetting, hurtful and humiliating and it prevents me feeling safe enough to get close to him.
Often he will deny that it happened at all, or he will say it was my fault that it happened. He said to me - in a rare moment of recent insight and self-reflection - that he felt so helpless and smothered and burdened in our relationship for so long, and so seething with resentment - that now he feels safer expressing his feelings he over-reacts and things spill out too much. (I believe Unchien suggested exactly this a few posts earlier in this thread and I think he was spot-on). I asked him what his plan was to do something about his resentment and emotional reactions (well, my exact words were 'what you do plan to do about your compulsion to behave in way that damages our marriage), and he didn't say anything. He seems to believe, still, that it is the world's job to adjust to what he needs, rather than him controlling his emotions and behaviour no matter what happens in the outside world. I believe that is at the root of many out our parenting disagreements - he expects a level of emotional maturity and self control from his teenage son that he is unable to exert over himself, and that he doesn't, deep down, think he should apply to himself. That interferes with my ability to respect him.
Originally Posted by BluWave
I get the sense that he is dismissing your feelings and justifying that by saying that you are "playing a victim." I don't like that at all. It is hard work to restore a M and it takes both people to be patient, kind, and willing to look at how they can change. I see that you are able to self reflect and make changes, but I am not sure he is doing the same. Does he ever just listen and validate how you feel? My fear is if he can't learn to do that then this M cannot heal. It has to come from both people.
Yes, he does sometimes listen and validate me. He is patient and kind more often. I see him working very hard on his relationship with the children and in doing acts of service to demonstrate love. I think the root of the problem is his passivity. Which sounds strange when I am describing such actively unpleasant behaviours. But when he finds something upsetting, stressful or anxiety-inducing, he tends to lash out at the thing that he believes is causing the problem. He's an absolutely compulsive blamer.
He had a little grump this morning about not being able to have any time to himself. I said 'why not take the morning to yourself and I can be in with the kids,' (no problem to me - I can do some baking with them) - he then grumped a bit more and said 'well, I'll have to come back before lunch anyway because I need to do...(some other thing)' and I said 'okay - well, so long as we know that you're choosing not to have two hours to yourself, not that me or the kids are taking that two hours from you.' I guess I was being overbearing and naggy and annoying but I do feel a need to point out to him that he's making his own problems then blaming others for them, then when others get upset about that, blaming them for that too. It's much less than it used to be, but I wonder how deep-seated his changes actually are. We have a regular thing where he refuses to plan the weekends, doesn't want to be pinned down, doesn't want to say what he wants to do, then whines about how he hasn't had his needs met. I don't accept that any more. I ask him what he wants and tell him I'd like to meet his needs but he's going to need to express them for that to be possible. He finds it nearly impossible to say 'I want...' - I believe he had a very overbearing and critical mother.
I am different than I used to be. I enjoy my life without him. I generally emotionally avoid him. Perhaps that's all the marriage a person like him can manage. Perhaps I will decide in time that it isn't enough. Perhaps he will continue to work on his problems in IC and things will slowly change. I feel much more confident than I ever did that he's got some real personality problems and his antics don't as much hurt me as a person anymore, but they damage our marriage. That's different. I can survive and thrive without a marriage to this man. I have myself and I am much better protected and safer than I used to be.
[/quote]I hope otherwise you are finding enjoyment in the holidays. This time of year can be hard.
What happened to Dilly, does anyone know? I miss her and think about her too ...
Blu[/quote]
And you too Blu - thanks for checking in on me. I am having lots of fun time and feeling better after my illness. Plan to do a little baking today, I hope. Do you have fun festive plans?
I haven't heard anything about or from Dilly in months. I hope she is okay. If you still lurk and read Dilly - I think of you very often and would love to hear how you are getting on.
Hi Alison. I too am concerned about your H's mocking behavior, and find some of what you wrote about to show he is still verbally abusive. My fears for your personal well being were calmed a bit by your post above, about how it damages the marriage, but not you. I hope that is true.
Which isn't to say I'm not still concerned or that we should take his behaviors lightly. It's still dangerous, and I don't think any of us want you settling into a routine of finding this acceptable or normal. I think you see that it is not.
It seems your plan now is to stay and see if things change over time. If it gets worse please don't hide it from us, we want to support you. Separating a second time sounds like it will be easier, but may be more difficult - I have no idea. But if it starts to ease-up that may be harder to track. I wonder if documenting his outbursts would be helpful to you? A birds eye view of how often he does his mocking, how often he is sarcastic, how often you feel he is trying to be honest with you in talking about it. A little abbreviation in a calendar, and looking at how often each behavior shows up in a week/month. Looking at it as "facts" of his behavior might prove useful to you?
Alison - I am with Yail. I find his attitude, behaviour and words extremely uncomfortable. I get that this is what he does when he feels threatened or insecure, but that does not make it right. He feels threatened so he threatens. He feels insecure, so he mocks and belittles. Habit maybe, but habits like this need to be broken if you are ever going to get to a place where you can truly be happy together. Otherwise you are sacrifice your hard won sense of self worth for what, a man who makes you feel like sh!t because he feels like sh!t.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
So in therapy I want to ask that he commit to stopping that behaviour. That he can be angry or upset or mistrusting or whatever he is - and he is welcome to communicate that to me in words like an adult. But that I need him to take responsibility for this odd behaviour and stop it so I can feel emotionally safe with him.
Do this. But read the boundaries thread first. Are you willing to tolerate his behaviour hoping that it goes away on it's own (it won't) or are you willing to tell him what you will not tolerate and face the consequences?
If you take the former, you will end up exactly where you were post BD. Him treating you like garbage, feeling guilty for it, then losing respect for you because you let him treat you like garbage and resenting you for making him feel guilty for it.
If you do the latter, he might kick off. He might spew a little and then stew in his own resentment and you may ultimately lose him again, but he will respect you and more importantly, you will respect you.
And I truly truly believe, you can't have a relationship without respect.
Just want to add to what I wrote above.. I am completely aligned with the other responses here. Your H's outward behavior seems to betray that he still harbors the same attitudes. It is one thing to fix the outward behaviors, but (in my opinion) that is *not* sufficient to address the underlying issue.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Often he will deny that it happened at all, or he will say it was my fault that it happened. He said to me - in a rare moment of recent insight and self-reflection - that he felt so helpless and smothered and burdened in our relationship for so long, and so seething with resentment - that now he feels safer expressing his feelings he over-reacts and things spill out too much. (I believe Unchien suggested exactly this a few posts earlier in this thread and I think he was spot-on). I asked him what his plan was to do something about his resentment and emotional reactions (well, my exact words were 'what you do plan to do about your compulsion to behave in way that damages our marriage), and he didn't say anything. He seems to believe, still, that it is the world's job to adjust to what he needs, rather than him controlling his emotions and behaviour no matter what happens in the outside world. I believe that is at the root of many out our parenting disagreements - he expects a level of emotional maturity and self control from his teenage son that he is unable to exert over himself, and that he doesn't, deep down, think he should apply to himself. That interferes with my ability to respect him.
Both items I bold-texted are indicators his attitude has not changed.
He expects to resolve his resentment by taking it out on you with these mocking emotional outbursts?
I think addressing this with his IC is the right plan. Otherwise it seems like a slippery slope where things could gradually devolve back to the way they were before (or close to it).
thank you everyone. Some great suggestions here, which have helped me to come up with a plan.
1. decide what the boundary is... 'when you do this behaviour, I will...' 2. bring this up when I visit his IC with him at earliest opportunity and state my boundary there 3. as Yail suggests, check in here or in a personal diary to keep a clearer log of how often and when this happens 4. GAL, detach, give acts of service, count the good things
Merry Christmas everyone. I will check back in the New Year. I wish you all good things in your home lives.
