Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[KristinG]

May,

I'm glad that you have a PMA recently. I know (for many of us) it can be a lot of ups and downs emotionally. I understand not wanting to question it and dwell on whether you are fooling yourself into feeling better and just enjoy.

Soft 2X4 here: It's probably a mix of fooling yourself and the work you're doing on your mental preparations for the worst.

I feel like many of us live in limbo accepting whatever comes our way, trying to be as patient as possible. The truth of the matter is that we need to continue to prepare for the worst and work towards letting go of any outcome. You're 180 about the social hour is exactly this. It's your brain saying "Hey May! Make a decision just to make May happy!"

Hang in there May!

[BluWave]

Dear May,

I have gone back and read all of your posts. I am wishing I had taken notes because so many things came to mind that I wanted to tell you, but I wanted to get through the entire thing first. I also want to say to anyone that is reading to please not think that your posts are any less valuable than some of the "vets" or posters you view as experts because they have thousands of posts under their belts. That is not true at all! We all have something important to contribute and we are all learning together. I also want to caution people from using statistics (ie I am 99% sure) because it's misleading -- we are talking about people, not data! Plus, some of us know more about some things due to our own experiences and others know more about something else, even if they are considered a newbie to this site. In fact, a poster literally named "newbie" said something about long distance EAs needing to burn out that I thought was some of the best advice on this thread!

May, I have so many things I want to tell you. Writing is not my strong suit, but I will try my best. I am going to break it up into paragraphs, as things come to mind again and it might take me more than one post. I apologize if it doesn't flow or read well. I have a lot of clarifying questions also, and if you don't want to answer them here, I hope you will at least think about them. I also have some advice that might feel contradictory to some of the DB principles. Of course you are free to ignore my advise. The reason I am telling you some of this, is because I can see in hindsight how I could have done things differently in my own sitch and your H sounds similar to mine in several ways. I will explain that when I get started. Lastly, I apologize if I seem harsh or my 2*4s are rough. Sometimes it is easier for me to communicate in a direct way that could be perceived as less than caring. I don't mean to hurt you, and I actually think I can help.

I cannot help but sense in your writing that you do not seem very angry or upset about your sitch. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't get that sense at all. You continue to minimize their R be calling it an EA. I didn't think that when I read your very first post. In fact you even say that you are not jealous of OW. So I am wondering if your lack of emotion is due to denial about the gravity of your sitch or that you are just not conveying that in your writing? Your H is basically telling you that he is in love with her, he wants to be with her, and it seems that he is only still in the home because it is "the right thing to do" to be a good family man. How do you feel about this? I know they say here that we should believe none of what they say and half of what they do. More cookie cutter advice that I think we should put aside for the moment (I have my reasons for saying this and I will get to that). .... May, your H is telling you he wants to leave you for an affair, live with HER next door, and pretend you are all friends. Let's say he is telling you the truth. How do you feel right now reading that?

Could it be that on some level, you and him both believe that you deserve this? Could that also be why you are not more upset? Sure, he is delusional, we all know that, but I am also suggesting here that some part of you is taking blame for this. He blames you and his narrative is strong -- "you neglected me sexually for years and broke our M, this is your fault, and so I am entitled to be happy and be with OW." He has said this in his own words 100 times. I could care less what he says -- he is so deep in this affair fog, he can't find his a-s from a hole in the ground. What I care about, May, is you. Do you believe that you are to blame for your M problems and that that is why he ultimately had an A?

Because I don't believe that for one minute. This is not your fault, May. Even if he tried to pursue you and initiate affection and sex every night for two years, and even if very night for 2 years you balked at him and told him to get your hands off of me, even then I would not believe that it was your fault. I don't think it is ever one person's fault. A M literally means a union between 2 people. It is up to both of those 2 people to nurture the R, but also to have healthy boundaries and good communication. He was responsible for talking with you and addressing the intimacy problems just as you were. And even if the problems were more stemming from you, it was still his choice to lie and commit adultery. That was and still IS his very big mistake! .... I am afraid he has convinced himself that he is entitled to this A because you "broke him sexually (which is complete horse sh-t)" and worse than that, I am afraid that you have accepted this blame and welcomed it.

I want to talk about boundaries because I have read you use the term incorrectly. You have stated that your boundary is that you will only work on the M or even discuss a separation with co-parenting if he goes NC with OW. That is not a boundary, that is control. A boundary can be thought of a circle you draw around yourself and then you can decide what and who you let in the circle. Control is when you draw the circle around someone else. You want to control him and his R with her and you just can't. Now, I do not judge you for that. I was the same and actually much worse! I tried anything and everything to control my H and OWs R. I even thought I was successful at times -- I got him to go NC with her for a month. During that month we had several R talks. He was a miserable mess. I think during that month he probably missed her and wanted her more .... It is human nature to want what we can't have ....

Here is the biggest issue as I see it. You are plan B. He knows it, you know it, and anyone reading here knows it. But no one want's plan B, May. No one. In fact, even if plan A falls through and he then turns to plan B (which is you) he still didn't want you. Is that how you want to start the difficult process of piecing? As plan B? .... I am going to guess no. You would rather be plan A. So what can you do now to turn this crap around and become plan A?


To Be continued. ...

[BluWave]

I think removing yourself from plan B is going to be a challenge at this point for several reasons. That is not to say it isn't possible, but the longer you avail yourself as plan B, the harder it will be to change that. Here are some reasons you both agree that you are plan B, and as you read them, you can think about what you can modify (change) and what you have no control over.

1. You have had several R talks and he has stated out loud multiple times that he has already chosen her as plan A. He is naturally conflicted about his decision, however the more he says it, the more he may feel as if he needs to stick to his words. This could partly be a pride issue, and esp for men.

2. You both have attributed blame for the SSM issues and both agree that it is your fault. This conversation has happened several times and you have already accepted the blame. He has not had to work hard on rewriting history because this has become a shared belief.

3. You are okay with whatever he chooses to do. He can sleep in the bed or the office. He can share family time or have his own time with the kids. He is welcome to have family vacation or not. He can have dates, laughs, beers, midnight sex without meaning, friendship and pretty much whatever he wants with you right now. You are accommodating. This, given the fact that he has told you he is in love with another woman, in my opinion translates into a loss of respect for you. I am a believer that it is difficult to have attraction for a person that we do not respect. This is a huge part of his confusion.

4. You are expecting him to make a logical decision when he is in a completely irrational mindset. Have you read about limerance? Have you read about the addictive nature of As? It has been compared to a heroin addition and researchers have even done PET scans of people's brains that are "in love" (ie infatuated with someone) and it lights up in the same areas. So right now, your WH is completely obsessed with this OW and the idea of her. In his delusional mind he can have his cake and eat it too. He can have a perfect romance with her and be perfect co-parents with you. He literally said this to you. That is crazy talk. That is limerance at it's best. ... My H was the same way! He even said to me that we all need to sit down and talk (re him, OW, her H and me) and I think my jaw opened so wide it hit the pavement! ... so here is where you can't believe what they say. It's completely insane. But at the same time, you have to accept what he says because he thinks he means it .... he even said to you, you have no idea what goes on in his head.

So regarding the above 4 things, what can you improve upon and what can you not? You already know he is deeply involved with OW and obessessed with her. Chances are, they are in frequent contact, he professes his love to her and feels miserable he can't be with her, and he sees YOU as the main obstacle to his pathway to happiness and bliss. ... This is where I want to point out that your sitch is not like everyone elses. You are dealing with extreme waywardness. You continue to do the PICK ME DANCE, and I am telling you right now, you will never win. You cannot compete with her. She has already won in his mind. ... You need a new tactic ....

On another note, I wanted to add that your measurement of things going well is wrong. You have stated several times how much better things are -- he is doing more around the house, he is helping more, he is more pleasant, and you even enjoy one another's company, you have family time, you laugh and you share beers. It almost seems like things are normal and so you want to believe you are drawing him in ... I am going to go out on a limb and say the opposite is true. You are actually teaching him that you are perfectly happy to be his plan B and you will wait in the friendzone and continue to serve up cake. After all, you both agree that the M problems are your fault, right? And he also knows you will wait for him to change his mind, right? And he has been very clear that he is not with you and only wants her, right? In fact, I would also say that a large part of him trying to stay away from you sexually, is because he doesn't want to cheat on her ... ouch .... (are you mad yet, May? Because I am! I personally want to drop kick your H in the nutz!) ...

Some of the moments that H and I had the calmest and nicest interactions, were during the times he was most limeramt and attached to his OW. I think his kindness to me, and helping around the house and with kids -- and me accepting him and appreciating him -- actually absolved his guilt. It DID NOT LEAD TO HIM WANTING TO BE WITH ME. It was backwards and counter intuitive.

I am getting the sense that the DB coaches telling you to be the light house, remain warm and detached and to focus on the friendship. I don't know why and I just don't agree with it. That is why I said I cannot agree with all of the advice here. I think that actually weakens your position and keeps you either as plan B or in the Friendzone. I am not suggesting you do the opposite, like stonewall him, be aggressive or kick him to the curb. But I do not agree that being a shiney lighthouse is going to l lead the affair ship back to shore. That needs to die on it's own .... and I happen to think it will need to die it's own natural death without your interference ....

I have noticed you have strong ideas about your bottom line. I was like that too. And I can tell you, it changed all the time. I don't think I have any bottom lines anymore. People and Rs are messy and complicated, and esp Ms. I think your belief about him leaving the family home being the final straw, and point of no return, will mostly change in this. And you keeping him there, will unlikely lead to you two piecing and fixing this M. Plan A might get fed up and dump him if she has to wait too long, sure, but recall you are still plan B .... Our number one goal right now, is that May becomes plan A ....

To Be Continued .....

[BluWave]

So if you agree with anything I am saying that we are both wondering how we can remove you from plan B and put you into the position of plan A. If I knew the exact formula, I would of course tell you! I am sorry I don't know, but I do have some ideas that I think will help. I also want to be honest and say that I cannot separate my bias of knowing what worked (and didn't work) in my own sitch. I do see some similarities between our Hs. My H was not a walkaway, and was deeply wayward -- he only left to pursue OW and didn't actually want to leave. My H was a big Mr Nice Guy and was very eager to please and protect his image of being a good H and dad. It killed him that people saw him differently, esp when he left the home. My H kicked into overdrive to make-up for his wayward guilt by being more helpful, present, and even kind. My H knew on some level that his A was wrong, that breaking up his family was wrong, and he even knew when he left that things would never work with OW. He could even articulate that to me. But the thing is, he was too deep in the A fog, and the limeramce (like heroin) was too strong. He had to go out into the world and it had to die it's own natural death.

So I think you can tell by now I am going in the direction that you don't want hear. At the same time, your point that this has to be his decision, and you will not be responsible for making this choice for him, is well taken. So I am not going to tell you that you should say to him to "go, get out, and go be with her." I can see that is not what you want to do and I am not even sure it is the best idea. But I do think something has got to change. I see many areas where you can do 180s. In fact, I think your position is quite strong. He does not really want to leave and wants a family with his kids. While he says he is not attracted to you, I don't think that is true (he comes on to you), and it is also something that can change again. On some level (just like with my H), he knows leaving his W for a 33 yo is just wrong and probably knows it will never actually work. He does not want to destroy his image of a good H, father and family man. He also does not want to lose his plan B, you. It is clear that he does enjoy your company and friendship and would miss that..

I am not sure if I mentioned this about my H, but I did make the decision for him by telling him "if you are not going to be 100% committed to me and this family, then get out! And then he left. It was so awful and painful. He was also gone for awhile. I regretted saying that and I only wanted him back. The thing is tho, May, I might have done the right thing in a way. Because I set him free. He went off and had a full on R with her and he learned that his "fantasy" was just that, it was a fantasy and he was trying to escape his own life. The reality of an R with her was disappointing, painful and not what he wanted at all. He also started to miss me, our family and the life we created. You see, I couldn't compete with her and I didn't want to. I let him go. And by letting him go, I in turn became the plan A. He had to fall on his own and hit his own rock bottom to realize what he was actually losing.

I don't get the sense you are there yet and that is okay. We are different people. But I do think there are many things that you can do to remove yourself from plan B. In my last post I numbered 1-4 things that I thought were the reasons you were plan B. I asked you to think about what things you could control and change. .... In my opinion, there are things you can do in all 4 of them! You see you are so much stronger and more in control than you realize right now! (I was back then too, but I didn't know it). May, you are the queen of your castle! You don't need to compete with that pitiful OW because there is no competition. He just cannot see it right now and neither can you ....

So here are the things I want you to know as you move forward so you can hold your head up high and start getting your groove back. We have got to find the PLAN A MAY! She exists under this pain and fear. Can we let that be our focus?

You are the queen of your castle. Always.
You are the wife, you are the mother of these children, and this is YOUR family.
This is your home and you have a right to feel comfortable and safe there.
These M problems are not your fault alone.
The SSM was not your fault alone.
His A is not your fault and will never be your fault. This is HIS doing and his problem alone.
Right now, he is in the wrong and there is no justifying this selfish behavior. No more taking the blame.
OW is nothing and means nothing to you.
It is okay to feel angry, jealous, hurt, furious and anything you need to feel! Feel it and own those feelings -- they are your feelings!
There are safe people you can share your feelings with that won't judge you. Find them and cherish them.
You never have to compete with OW
There is no competition.
She is nothing to you.
It is not your job to convince him to stay.
You do not have to compromise your own needs or wants for him or any man.
You can take all the time and space you need.
You don't have to make any decisions or changes today.
There is always more time.
You do not have to share a bed with a liar and a cheater.
If he wants to leave for her, that is his choice and you can let him go.
He can own that decision and he can own the consequences of it.
He can break up his family if he chooses and you can still protect your castle and children. They will be okay.
You can still hold your head up high and you are still the queen.
I promise you will be okay with or without him there.
In time, this will work out for the best, eventually.
If over time you allow him back, or don't want him back, that is your own choice and no one elses opinion matters that much.
Life is long and complicated. Things will change for the bad, but also for the good.
In time, you can learn to love again and you will come out of this stronger.
You deserve love and respect.
Start by being the one to give that to yourself.
You can do this.

Blu

[Newbie20]

Above post is what I said in a lot more words which were probably needed. This guy needs to be forced to make his decision to go to this AP and feel what he is losing. This is something I personally know. I was the WW in an affair over 20 years ago. Limerence to the absolute max. But when it came time to do what I had to do to leave my marriage if I wanted this AP, I just couldn't do it. And now, 20 years later, I laugh at how stupid I was back then. My AP was a single guy, willing to engage a married woman (what kind of character does that show) and he is still single. He would never have committed to me despite the BS I was told at the time. These people are single for a reason.

I didn't have the family commitments you do, May, and I still couldn't do it. Take Plan B away from him. He may go to this person but it won't last. I'm not saying it won't be painful but it will get resolved. Having him gone physically from your household will make you adapt to a new reality and when he does come back, you'll be in a stronger position to decide if you want him in your family's life at all.

[Newbie20]

I can't emphasize this enough. He is getting to have his family and also sneak around indulging this fantasy. I DID IT MYSELF. Mine was also long distance. It makes your life so exciting when it's going on. Tell him he can't live in your house while he is involved with this woman.

[scout12]

Wow, BluWave. Talk about a 2x4. That was more like a sledgehammer. Amazing, brilliant, very necessary post. Listen to her, May!

[BluWave]

Sledgehammer with love ....

It is impossible for me (or anyone) to perfectly remove their own bias. The more the sitch is similar to our own, the more there is room for bias. So I know my posts can read a bit harsh (2by4 or worse, sledgehammer) but I do promise you all I think about it a lot. I am not here to post to every person and I am not a self-proclaimed expert! I have zero ego about how anyone might perceive me and I don't consider myself a vet (I don't consider most people here vets, even the daily posters and ones that speak as if they are).

What I do is I try and read from the beginning. I try and understand where that person might be getting stuck. I then think about if I were in their shoes, what would I need to hear? When I was in similar shoes what do I know now that I did need to hear then. It is almost as if I am talking to my old wounded self. .... I personally needed a lot of 2*4s. My friends and family were loving and supportive but perhaps could have been more direct with me.

I also want people here to know that it is okay to let go. We cling so hard out of fear, pain and anxiety, that really we push them away. When I finally let go of my H and took care of myself, he was free to discover what he wanted on his own

Blu

[may22]

Blu,

This.

Thank you.

First off, I want to say how much I appreciate your time, your candor, your insight, and your kind clarity. I don't feel anything you said was harsh at all-- I definitely feel you are talking right to me and I've been really thinking a lot about setting myself up as Plan B and he has zero doubts that I won't go anywhere, because of the children if nothing else. If it is OK, I'm going to go through here and respond piece by piece.

I cannot help but sense in your writing that you do not seem very angry or upset about your sitch. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't get that sense at all. You continue to minimize their R be calling it an EA. I didn't think that when I read your very first post. In fact you even say that you are not jealous of OW. So I am wondering if your lack of emotion is due to denial about the gravity of your sitch or that you are just not conveying that in your writing? Your H is basically telling you that he is in love with her, he wants to be with her, and it seems that he is only still in the home because it is "the right thing to do" to be a good family man. How do you feel about this? I know they say here that we should believe none of what they say and half of what they do. More cookie cutter advice that I think we should put aside for the moment (I have my reasons for saying this and I will get to that). .... May, your H is telling you he wants to leave you for an affair, live with HER next door, and pretend you are all friends. Let's say he is telling you the truth. How do you feel right now reading that?

I know at first I didn't believe he really, truly could love someone else and not me. I also really went into the literature on limerence and have really relied on this whole "brain on drugs" idea, which has helped me to separate my feelings from what is happening and make it more like a scientific phenomenon I happen to be observing. Does that make sense? I also had an experience a couple of years ago at a college reunion where someone I'd always thought was cute really came onto me and while I didn't let it go anywhere, I did spend a few days daydreaming and it scared me... I feel I can understand how it happened and how he got himself into this situation. I AM angry. I AM probably also somewhat still in denial about the gravity of the situation. In the last week, I've been trying to tell myself over and over, maybe he is really just done, he is never coming back, he really is just in love with someone else and it is out of my control.

I do think that if she lived here and they saw each other in person, I would be a raving, jealous, crazy person. I think I might go insane. The fact that she lives so far away, they have barely even seen each other IRL and in that sense, she is a woman who has spent a year in a long-distance affair with a married older man who hasn't shown her with his actions that he is choosing her. So I don't really feel jealous of her, honestly. But I would if she moved in next door. Maybe I'm just telling myself "it could be worse if...' and using that as a mechanism to distance myself from being jealous, angry or sad.

When he first told me, I was a total mess. I still am not sleeping all that well. The thing that panics me beyond anything else is the idea of not being with my kids-- that is a bone-deep terror that overrides anything else and I honestly don't know how much I'm conflating my fear of losing him over my fear of breaking up my family, hurting my children, and not being able to tuck them in every night and snuggle with them every morning. I mean, he is being a huge a-hole and part of me is like do I really want this?

cCould it be that on some level, you and him both believe that you deserve this? Could that also be why you are not more upset? Sure, he is delusional, we all know that, but I am also suggesting here that some part of you is taking blame for this. He blames you and his narrative is strong -- "you neglected me sexually for years and broke our M, this is your fault, and so I am entitled to be happy and be with OW." He has said this in his own words 100 times. I could care less what he says -- he is so deep in this affair fog, he can't find his a-s from a hole in the ground. What I care about, May, is you. Do you believe that you are to blame for your M problems and that that is why he ultimately had an A?[/quote]
Well, this is a tough one. I don't *think* so. I held a huge amount of resentment towards him for things ranging from him not being around/not being helpful around the house, him being selfish and choosing to do things just for himself, him being an a-hole and then expecting to get some half an hour later. I also had a lot of self-image issues after kids really didn't feel like a sexual being any more, and I also felt like he just wanted sex for the physical release rather than actually wanting ME. I also started to feel like there was something wrong with me for having such low libido.

Now, I have spent a long time reading about this and thinking about it, and have actually really absolved myself of a good portion of the responsibility for the sexlessness. He also bears responsibility, and we have talked about that. I don't think he's fully absorbed his role, though. He is very smart and I think his IC is basically an echo chamber where he gets reinforcement for his own storyline that he wants to tell.

I also think that at the time, the one thing I had read about sexless Rs was that I should just fake it till I made it, and that is probably that max I would have done... which, while may have staved off this particular issue, probably would not have solved our R problems. So a part of me does feel like it had to come to this, where our R is totally on the rocks, for me to really take responsibility for my share of our issues. This whole situation has also caused me to see him as a real person, not just a foil inhabiting the role of my H, which allowed me to actually forgive him for a lot of the hurts I had been holding onto for years.

So... I don't *think* I am accepting the blame for this. I have not been arguing with him in R talks about the blame he deserves, and I think he thinks I am taking the blame... so it definitely does fit into his narrative. (And also probably contributes to his loss of respect for me as well.) I am also not someone to have a lot of regrets-- generally I feel I do the best I can in any given situation with the information I have at that point in time, and I can't change what is in the past. So I'm mostly just trying to figure out how to deal today and going forward.

Because I don't believe that for one minute. This is not your fault, May. Even if he tried to pursue you and initiate affection and sex every night for two years, and even if very night for 2 years you balked at him and told him to get your hands off of me, even then I would not believe that it was your fault. I don't think it is ever one person's fault. A M literally means a union between 2 people. It is up to both of those 2 people to nurture the R, but also to have healthy boundaries and good communication. He was responsible for talking with you and addressing the intimacy problems just as you were. And even if the problems were more stemming from you, it was still his choice to lie and commit adultery. That was and still IS his very big mistake! .... I am afraid he has convinced himself that he is entitled to this A because you "broke him sexually (which is complete horse sh-t)" and worse than that, I am afraid that you have accepted this blame and welcomed it.

Thank you. This helps.

I want to talk about boundaries because I have read you use the term incorrectly. You have stated that your boundary is that you will only work on the M or even discuss a separation with co-parenting if he goes NC with OW. That is not a boundary, that is control. A boundary can be thought of a circle you draw around yourself and then you can decide what and who you let in the circle. Control is when you draw the circle around someone else. You want to control him and his R with her and you just can't. Now, I do not judge you for that. I was the same and actually much worse! I tried anything and everything to control my H and OWs R. I even thought I was successful at times -- I got him to go NC with her for a month. During that month we had several R talks. He was a miserable mess. I think during that month he probably missed her and wanted her more .... It is human nature to want what we can't have ....

You're right. I DO want to control this. I know I can't... but I want to. Desperately. I am working on this, telling myself over and over what I can and can't control. I actually feel that over the past week or so I've been getting better at this, and better at understanding that if he leaves, it is his choice... he is the one doing this to the girls, not me... and I will be fine. And they will, too. I think the next big step for me if this happens is that if my children are really hurting, I might drop back into blame-myself-zone.

Here is the biggest issue as I see it. You are plan B. He knows it, you know it, and anyone reading here knows it. But no one want's plan B, May. No one. In fact, even if plan A falls through and he then turns to plan B (which is you) he still didn't want you. Is that how you want to start the difficult process of piecing? As plan B? .... I am going to guess no. You would rather be plan A. So what can you do now to turn this crap around and become plan A?

I know!! Ever since I started reading these boards this is what I have been thinking about. I have established myself as the most concrete plan B in the world. He KNOWS without a doubt that NOTHING would make me leave him because I don't want to hurt the children. He told me in our last R talk that if things were reversed he would have been long gone. I said does that make you not respect me? (Maybe I shouldn't have asked this but it was on my mind for this very reason and I was honestly curious.) He said no.... not that I think it was an honest answer... and I told him he wouldn't know what decision he would make until he was in the actual situation, and that I always would have thought I would have left as well.

I've been thinking that things aren't going to get better before they get worse, which means, I think, him leaving and actually understanding what losing me, my friendship, his great family life, his friends (our friends are mostly my friends, which has also been a part of his MLC-like questioning of everything... "I won't be losing that much because I don't really have that many friends anyway and they only like me because of you"), his reputation, etc-- for this OW will all really mean. I just wish so badly I could somehow avoid this step. Also because he is so, so stubborn and self-justifying that I worry he'll never change his mind even if he ends up being miserable the rest of his life. But I'm not sure I can. But, I would piece as Plan B even if it was harder and longer to save my kids from any sadness, and that is the honest, maybe sad, truth.

Will respond to your next posts later... H just got home. THANK YOU!!

[may22]

I think removing yourself from plan B is going to be a challenge at this point for several reasons. That is not to say it isn't possible, but the longer you avail yourself as plan B, the harder it will be to change that. Here are some reasons you both agree that you are plan B, and as you read them, you can think about what you can modify (change) and what you have no control over.

1. You have had several R talks and he has stated out loud multiple times that he has already chosen her as plan A. He is naturally conflicted about his decision, however the more he says it, the more he may feel as if he needs to stick to his words. This could partly be a pride issue, and esp for men.

True. I think the pride issue is a part of this too, and saying it out loud to me gets easier for him every time. I also think it gives him something back to say to AP. Also, I have solidified myself as Plan B in these R talks because I am so set against breaking up for the kids and keep trying to convince him to imagine a fulfilling MR with me. I have generally tried to stay away from R talks-- my biggest takeaway here is to avoid at all costs? Listening and validating him saying this to me will just continue to move him in this direction even if I don't put on pressure by arguing with him.

2. You both have attributed blame for the SSM issues and both agree that it is your fault. This conversation has happened several times and you have already accepted the blame. He has not had to work hard on rewriting history because this has become a shared belief.

As I wrote in the earlier post, I definitely accept my part of the blame for this but also wholly believe he bears a decent 50% of it too. However, *he* doesn't really see this and I think the R talks where I focus on validating and listening probably reinforce his viewpoint that I was a frigid b***ch. He is very resentful that *now* I waltz in all ready to heat it up after all these years, and now that he no longer wants to. He has gotten angry and raised his voice the last couple of times we talked about it, and I haven't argued but I did say that I thought we both bore responsibility and he was like yes (but I think in a general sense, not in a deep, introspective he-knows-what-he-did sense). I did share a few things that I thought he could have done differently, like talking about it outside the bedroom (normally he would just get angry when I turned him down, yell at me, and I'd get angry back like why would I want to have sex with you when you're yelling at me?), trying to understand what was going on in my mind, not making me feel like all he wanted was sex for the sake of sex, etc. I don't know how useful it is to go over all of this with him at this point, especially on our own. If we did see an MC which we've talked about, or his IC together, maybe this is an area I can address. I do think that poking holes in his perfect narrative he's laid out with his IC could be beneficial for me/us. So, I don't really think #2 is true for ME, but I definitely think it is part of HIS truth at this point. How to address this in the current context especially if I'm trying to avoid R talks is maybe difficult.

3. You are okay with whatever he chooses to do. He can sleep in the bed or the office. He can share family time or have his own time with the kids. He is welcome to have family vacation or not. He can have dates, laughs, beers, midnight sex without meaning, friendship and pretty much whatever he wants with you right now. You are accommodating. This, given the fact that he has told you he is in love with another woman, in my opinion translates into a loss of respect for you. I am a believer that it is difficult to have attraction for a person that we do not respect. This is a huge part of his confusion.

This will be the hardest for me. I agree with you, but this is hard. Here are some random thoughts about the situation and I would welcome your thoughts on it:

- sex-- I told him I wouldn't have sex with him when he's sleeping in the bed with me (and I agree, I do think he feels guilty about HER when he does). He has come onto me the past two nights-- the first night he hugged me super tight and I just pretended to still be asleep, we sat like that (actually pretty uncomfortable for me) for a few minutes then he let me go and we both went back to sleep-- last night he put his hand on my stomach and then into my underwear, I pretended to be asleep, he left his hand there for a few minutes then went to sleep. This whole thing is just the weirdest. I do think that no sex is the right move right now, especially to avoid an R talk... and to be honest I think if I said more actively "I don't think this is a good idea" it could also lead into an R talk, hence the pretending to be asleep. But maybe more respect would be generated if I was firmer like untangled myself or removed his hand? Here's another weird thing about the sex... it tends to happen on evenings where we got into an argument or he got mad about something.

- he knows that I'm not OK with him sleeping in the office, but more for what it means for the kids than me caring too much where he actually sleeps. He finally put the futon back together so it isn't a bed anymore. I worry that this feels more like me trying to control him than being accommodating.

- one thing I've decided in the last week and put into action is that I won't take any more of his stupid sh*t if he's being a jerk for no reason, and also to go ahead and do the things I want to do without worrying about whether or not he'd like it. He did tell me in an R talk that he knew I was trying to be very accommodating and he saw me walking on thin ice and it made him feel guilty. So I am stopping. Not engaging in a fight, but just telling him he's being an ass and to cut it out. And last night we did something I wanted to, he really didn't, I told him he was welcome to skip it but the kids and I were doing it... and he came along, got super mad at the end of the night at me, and I just ignored him. I think I need to keep this up.

- finding more ways to GAL.

4. You are expecting him to make a logical decision when he is in a completely irrational mindset. Have you read about limerance? Have you read about the addictive nature of As? It has been compared to a heroin addition and researchers have even done PET scans of people's brains that are "in love" (ie infatuated with someone) and it lights up in the same areas. So right now, your WH is completely obsessed with this OW and the idea of her. In his delusional mind he can have his cake and eat it too. He can have a perfect romance with her and be perfect co-parents with you. He literally said this to you. That is crazy talk. That is limerance at it's best. ... My H was the same way! He even said to me that we all need to sit down and talk (re him, OW, her H and me) and I think my jaw opened so wide it hit the pavement! ... so here is where you can't believe what they say. It's completely insane. But at the same time, you have to accept what he says because he thinks he means it .... he even said to you, you have no idea what goes on in his head.

I know. I know I know. Not sure how I can improve on this... do I bust his fantasy bubble when he mentions it?

OK need to run again... will continue later. THANK YOU!