Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[wooba]

I feel you. I want to kick my H out entirely everyday. But you’re in a tougher situation because your H actually still lives in the house. Mine is already out but without all his stuff. I also question why wouldn’t my H want to move out entirely? Get his own place where he has all his clothes, and make things more convenient for himself. I sometimes think maybe he’s taking advantage of me because I’m still doing his laundry. Lol! But I don’t mind, with these kids I have to do laundry almost everyday. It doesn’t bother me. Anyways, I know there is no logic in my H’s thinking. Maybe just like yours, he can’t pull the trigger or a whatever. I just try to take it day by day and see how things go.

No! Don’t even mention not doing R talk. That’s mentioning R talk.

[may22]

Thanks, Woosa! Funny, it is all a matter of degrees. Although maybe you should stop doing his laundry.

UGH, I am so bad at DBing. Yesterday D9 broke her arm at school. Now will be in a cast for six weeks which takes one of my vacation options off the table-- the one that would definitely be just for us, and would not hook into H's desire to get some more miles before the end of the year.

D9 came into my bed very early in the morning to snuggle and talk. She'd clearly already spoken to H who was sleeping in the office because she didn't ask where he was and said "Daddy said" xyz about our elf on the shelf this morning (which neither of us had moved, parent fail). I said is Daddy working? She said no, Daddy is sleeping, he couldn't sleep so went to the office.

I was totally triggered and upset, thinking she is going to see right through this the next time she finds him sleeping in the office. So I did say something to him this morning-- asked him if he knew why our good friends always travel for Christmas and never celebrate at home. He said no, why? I said because the dad doesn't like Christmas because his own father walked out on his mother on Christmas (a story we both know-- I think H just didn't realize the connection to why they travel, or the only year they stayed they spent it with us rather than either of their own families).

H said I hear what you're saying. They are not us. But I hear what you're saying. We should talk about it. He then asked me to schedule the appt with my coach and said his IC wants to talk to me. Also, that he thought no matter what the two of us should get into a room with a counselor (which he'd previously told me he didn't want to do). I said you just said you didn't want that? He said no I didn't... I guess I must have misunderstood.

I repeated my boundary that I didn't think anything productive could happen until he went NC and he gave me this incredulous and pitying look. I think he thinks I'm trying to control him by setting that boundary. But I truly don't think that an H gets to have an affair with a significantly younger woman, leave the M for her, and then get his ex W as his good friend. It just doesn't work that way.

I feel like seeing his IC is just giving him the opportunity to BD me in front of her.

[wooba]

Sorry to hear that your daughter broke her arm! I'm surprised I haven't had to deal with any broken limbs with my kids yet ha!!

I agree with you on insisting your boundary. Maybe you could tell him that after thinking about his suggestion, you decided that you do not want to participate until he goes NC with OW. If it's anything about your children, you guys can do it separately with your coaches.

I will think about the laundry part. I feel petty for telling my H I won't do his laundry anymore though. Do you do your H's laundry? I can't believe we're talking about laundry. lol. anyways, that's about the only thing that I do for him nowadays, I'm really trying to stay away from the role of his "caretaker."

[may22]

I will think about the laundry part. I feel petty for telling my H I won't do his laundry anymore though. Do you do your H's laundry? I can't believe we're talking about laundry. lol. anyways, that's about the only thing that I do for him nowadays, I'm really trying to stay away from the role of his "caretaker."

Ha! I stopped doing H's laundry several years ago. He got angry when I would accidentally dry shirts he wanted hung and threw big fits. I would get mad and defensive and then if he accidentally screwed up something of mine I'd get mad back at him. Finally I said fine, let's just do our own laundry going forward, which has actually worked out well. We sometimes do each other's now and this is an area where he has done a big 180-- much better at anger management if these kind of situations come up. And me too-- I no longer get defensive if I screw up, I can just apologize and mean it. This is part of the reason I'm having so much trouble detaching-- our R and communication about non-R related stuff is actually the best it has ever been, and these long-standing issues I had had with him about everything from anger management to helping out more around the house are significantly decreased, if not gone.

Do you need to tell him? Or can you just stop? When he asks about it say you've been busy.

[may22]

Ugh. A week of hardly any sleep, totally anxiety driven with him back sleeping in the office. Lost all my composure last and entered into an R talk resulting in me arguing for trying to R, repeating over and over that we can't work on our R (in whatever direction it goes) in a meaningful way while he is still in contact with AP as my boundary, which pisses him off because he feels I'm just trying to control him again and get what I want. He wants so badly for me to say yes, I'll work on a friendly D regardless of whether or not she is in the picture, totally scared of the thought of losing this possibility with AP for true love.

Big fail. I feel I have zero self-control.

End result: he thinks he is in a no-win situation, same old stuff he's been saying about his choices being D and possible love with AP or passionless M with me. Differences from previous R talks-- he said he is scared to try with me again because he is afraid to open himself up to be hurt again; he got angry about the sexless M at me-- very angry (previously had been like "I've grieved it and it is over," I'm not mad anymore); said logically my arguments were very compelling but he just doesn't WANT to try and he will never want to have a sexual R with me again. (He doesn't know why he initiates sex in the middle of the night. I think this is the main reason he wanted to move back to the office.)

He said if I just drag this out long enough I'll get what I want as she's close to walking. (She wants to stop too but this thing is just "so strong"). That he is monogamous emotionally now with her and feels about her like he did about me in the beginning of our R. A lot of blame surfaced for me in sexually rejecting him, like I should have thought of this consequence when I didn't give him what he needed years ago-- it is my fault he was in a position to pursue someone else emotionally.

He wants to know how he is supposed to believe it would be different if we tried to R.

He agreed to come back to the bedroom and give this a rest till after the holidays. (Also he remembered his parents are coming in early January for two weeks, so he "can't move to the basement.") He is considering trying to go NC with AP but definitely not in a transparency mode (meaning no way it will succeed). He scheduled a session with my coach and wants to see a MC. I did agree to go see his IC together, if for no other reason than because I think it right now an echo chamber for him to get validation for his depiction of me and our R with his IC, and me meeting her breaks up that dynamic if only a tiny amount.

Back to square one. I deserve the 2x4s.

[HopeCA]

Hi May,

I’ve been following your thread, and I feel for you so much. I have lots of thoughts and opinions, and I’ll come back and share them when I can. But I’m going to comment on Bluewave’s thread and request that she respond here. Her sitch had some similarities to yours and to mine, and she has a lot of wisdom and really good advice to offer. I wish I’d taken more of her advice when she gave it to me

Don’t be too hard on yourself! You are putting up with a LOT of extraordinary hurtful stuff here. You’re doing amazingly well.

[may22]

Hi Hope,

Thanks so much... I've been following your thread too. Would love your thoughts and advice as well as BluWave's-- have followed her as well and really appreciate her advice and thoughts. It is really helpful to hear from the LBWs-- seems like while the general situations are similar with WWs/WHs, there is a lot that seems fairly specific advice for LBHs.

I know intellectually that this is just a step, if he does move out, and I'll be fine... and I also know intellectually that making him feel forced into choosing the MR is not the path to actual R... but he is someone who always justifies every decision after the fact, and I'm 99% sure if he walks that is it... he'll never be able to admit it was the wrong choice and will build up a whole narrative about how this was the best thing that could have happened to him unless he hits absolute rock bottom. Or even if he does-- he's been close to that before and always walks out the other end feeling like it was an opportunity for post-traumatic growth. He even told me he told his IC that even though this decision making process is agonizing and he feels like he's in a no-win situation that he knows on the other side of the decision he'll be fine and will make it be the right choice. (So I'm like WTF then why don't you make the choice that includes living with your children? And he is like, I already subscribed to that magazine and don't want to read it again. He is really still so angry about the sex, and lack of physical/emotional connection. Says I can't just ignore his pain for years and then one day decide oh wait... I do still want that toy I left out on the driveway for recycling to pick up.)

I guess he could have just walked without telling me every f***ing thing going on in his head-- he didn't have to tell me about AP in the first place and I know a lot of LBSs find out after the fact-- but it is so painful to hear him talking like this. He told me last night that he used to find me sexy when he watched me at work, and he doesn't anymore-- sees me confident, doing my thing, feels proud of me but that part is dead for him.

He also told me he is talking to her almost every day. Which makes me crazy.

I am just disappointed in myself for giving into temptation to get into an R talk. I asked him if he really wanted to lose his best friend through all of this. He said I don't... I just don't want to f**k her anymore.

I'm trying to figure out how I will handle the next, probably inevitable step of him moving out. He's still saying he wants me to live here with the children and he'll help pay for it-- making sure I get to wake up every morning with the kids is his "gift to me" even though he would be so sad about it too. I also just don't see that lasting.

Anyway... any advice on how to act TODAY and for the next few weeks, plus how to prepare myself for the next big step. And his parents coming to stay here for two weeks in January.

[wooba]

Don't beat yourself up too much!

What your H said to you is almost the same thing as what my H had said to me : "I've been hurt enough and I don't want to put myself in that position again." or something like even we try to R, he's afraid that it's just gonna be the same again, we're gonna be okay for a few months then it will be back to the old days (where he's "sexually starved") after a little while.

Nothing you can say or do right now will convince him or change his mind. I would say all you can do is validate, and just keep DBing.

And for him to say that it is his "gift to you" to help pay for the house and for you to be with the kids is a bunch of crap. It sounds like he just feels guilty for what he's doing with OW and trying to lessen his own guilt by giving you a "gift."

Is there any way to avoid having his parents stay with you guys for two weeks? That sounds like a lot for you to take on. My limit right now with the in-laws is having a meal together. anything longer than that is a big fat no on my end.

[may22]

What your H said to you is almost the same thing as what my H had said to me : "I've been hurt enough and I don't want to put myself in that position again." or something like even we try to R, he's afraid that it's just gonna be the same again, we're gonna be okay for a few months then it will be back to the old days (where he's "sexually starved") after a little while.

Yup. So strange that he has such a fixed mindset on this when he has a growth mindset in every other area of his life. I think it is because believing there is no hope for a sexually fulfilled M with me, ever, allows him to feel better about the choices he's making. If he accepted that things could change between us, that I could change, then it means his behavior is all the worse.

Nothing you can say or do right now will convince him or change his mind. I would say all you can do is validate, and just keep DBing.

You're right. I guess where I'm having trouble is that he just hasn't actually pulled the trigger and so there is this desperation in me to SOMEHOW turn this around before the kids get pulled into it. I know I can't control him-- that needs to be my mantra, especially because he feels I am controlling and if he decides to stay then I "win," but somehow I need to be able to just let it go.

And for him to say that it is his "gift to you" to help pay for the house and for you to be with the kids is a bunch of crap. It sounds like he just feels guilty for what he's doing with OW and trying to lessen his own guilt by giving you a "gift."

This addresses another series of fears of mine... that he'll agree to me getting 100% physical custody now to lessen his guilt, but as time goes on he'll come to see that he wants more of the children and will ask for it.

Is there any way to avoid having his parents stay with you guys for two weeks? That sounds like a lot for you to take on. My limit right now with the in-laws is having a meal together. anything longer than that is a big fat no on my end.

I wish, but not possible. I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. I felt like I handled my family situation the best I could, but it definitely drove him further away.

The fact that they have been on and off in contact since BD is interesting, though. I was re-reading my journal and he did really swing back and forth with weeks where he was closer, nicer, talking about purchasing investment properties together and vacations coming up, then swinging back to where he is right now, when he's clearly back in touch with her. I feel like he saw her on his last trip, came home to my parents being here, had a super stressful couple of weeks with my family and feeling like an outsider, and of course he pivots back away from me.

[may22]

So, things have been kind of back to normal the last couple of days post R talk, with H being nice/funny/fun and us probably spending more time together being friendly than I should allow (wrapping presents together, cooking together, sharing a beer and gossiping about friends together). He took my car in to get a tire fixed without even offering or asking-- just took care of it (after BD1 he had had expressed frustration that I "expected" him to take care of all these kinds of things-- and so the last time my car needed maintenance I just took it in and handled it without talking to him about it, though I did check in with him before spending on a repair). I thanked him and put gas in his car when I had it.

Weird thing about the bed situation-- he's been back in the MB since Friday after our R talk, to prevent the kids from asking difficult questions during the holidays (I also told him if he tried anything in the middle of the night I wouldn't let it happen, so he didn't have to worry about that. He acted like that was stupid but I am pretty sure it is part of the reason he doesn't want to be there, since he doesn't understand why he wakes up and starts kissing me in the middle of the night). However, he left the futon open in the office. It is almost like he still needs that visual representation of the possibility available to him. Sunday night he ate a ton of ice cream right before bed (he's lactose intolerant) and came into the bedroom saying I wouldn't want him to sleep here (let's just say he can be very stinky). I was reading and didn't react at all, said fine and kept reading. He went to the office and then came back and said D9's stuff is all over the futon (there was literally one big thing and a couple smaller items-- would have taken 30 seconds to remove) and then got in bed.

I will note that I have been DYING to put the futon back together or ask him to do it but have not. Baby steps! He has also not worn his wedding ring now for several weeks, since his last trip (when he saw AP). He has always took it on and off for surfing/swimming/yoga etc. and then doesn't always put it back on for some period of time, but this is probably the longest length of time he hasn't worn it. I am finally becoming less triggered by this.

Yesterday, I was reading on Curtis's thread where Blu told him his W is done, and I started to think-- is this me? Is my H simply done and all I'm doing is dragging out the process? Or is he truly conflicted-- not about his feelings for me vs AP (that seems pretty clear) but in his desire to actually move forward with leaving and all that entails? I've been pinning all my hopes on the latter, that he'll decide it isn't worth giving this all up for a chance at a more fulfilled R with AP... but maybe I'm fooling myself. I spent a lot of time thinking about this yesterday and what that might mean. It was a sobering and sad realization. I spent the drive home repeating to myself I can't control him, I can't control what he thinks, or what he wants, or what he does. I can only control me. And if we do get D, he will be a great dad and a good co-parent partner, even if I'm too angry/devastated/hurt to be his friend back if AP is in the picture, and as much as I feel I couldn't forgive him for taking a 2-parent household away from our kids.

Then I got home, he was nice and funny. He got a last-minute text invite from some friends (male, but probably as good friends with me as they are with him) as we were unloading the dishwasher together, starting to cook dinner, and sharing a beer-- at first I was like I want to go! (180 for me, he thinks/thought I never want to do anything fun and am not spontaneous) and he said yes, let's go, we can bring the kids-- then I said no, that seems silly, you should go hang out with XYZ, it will be more fun. He said actually, it would be really fun for us all to go... but agreed that it didn't really make sense. He cooked dinner, we ate as a family and laughed a ton at our hilarious and wonderful children, and he took off.

The best part of that whole exchange... is that I meant it. I didn't say it to elicit any kind of response from him (in fact it probably would be construed as pressure and anti-DB had I thought more about it) but-- I really would have dropped everything, the dinner we were in the middle of cooking, to go have a fun night with the fam and good friends. A year ago I would have thought that was a crazy idea and why didn't we make a plan to do that next week? And whether he sees that or not, I feel freer and happier that I can say YES to things so much more often than I could before.

And then, even better-- for the first time in weeks, I was able to simply BE with my kids, in the moment, and enjoy them. We played silly games and laughed and I was so happy. There was no nagging at the back of my mind about what might happen with H. It still feels good just thinking about it, and even right now though of course this is on my mind, the level of anxiety has definitely diminished. Of course, I don't know if that is because I've made any interior progress or because he's back in the MB and acting nice (therefore I'm just fooling myself into feeling better), but right now I don't want to question it.

He came home on the early side, hung out and helped do some online Christmas shopping, told me funny stories from the friends he saw. This morning, he had an opportunity to get angry with me and he didn't AT ALL. Incredible, I'm not putting any meaning into it one way or the other, but it was a really sweet 180 from him that I appreciate.

Anyway, that is where I am. Input, 2x4s, etc all welcome.