I think a milestone has been reached; and the end of this round.
Good for you standing for what you believe in and want. The proposed extra payments were not going to be counted as ED and instead spousal support - and you said no and left. That’s awesome! Seriously, what are they going to do? The can’t bully you into anything.
And look what happened, minutes later on the court steps, H agreed to your terms. Yes, take this as a win. It’s finally in writing, H isn’t allowed back in the house.
I know you feel wore down by the prolonging and H’s escalating of the “business side” of this. Separation/divorce is messy and taxing. And I do think H is wearing down.
MLCers are irrational and driven by their emotions. They’re not well known for virtues of patience, and do not play the long game. They are after short term, immediate results and satisfactions. Like an addict, they need it. Your reasonable and rational approach, with included spreadsheet showing monies that could be gained/lost, doesn’t work with H. His desires are irrational, and do change.
They are many MLC spouses around here that are dragging out their divorces not due to finances or other negotiable assets. Their wants are emotional, the need to lash out, to have conflict. Look at H, he has caused more hemorrhaging of your joint finances, than he will win back. He is not being driven by money.
His last second agreement on the steps of the court house shows he is growing evermore less patience and wanting those results and dreams he thinks are just around the corner. He has always irrationally blamed you for the abject poverty he believes he lives in. Remember his fantasy is this being wealthy after he is free of you. Letting him run about, and do heavy lifting, while you patiently go about your business and life, is bearing fruit. You are outlasting him; an impressive display of internal fortitude, in my humble opinion.
Some advice I gave, it seems so long ago, was to know what you are willing to negotiate. Those hills you are willing to die for and the ones you can let go. Yes, H is still irrational and is unlikely to settle things outside of a courtroom - maybe. He may be more wore down than we figure. However, it doesn’t matter, you know what you want and are willing to fight for. $11,000 is well spent in my view. Your sanity is worth that and much more. Do not sell yourself short nor your deep held beliefs and desires. And those have nothing to do with thoughts of reconciliation - I’m speaking about you, your desires for you and your kids.
A trial may be the next step, and then a different judge. That could be a very good thing for you. That is something H and his L probably realize, as well as that they might just have to behave more reasonably. As I said, H seems to be fighting just to fight; eventually one’s knuckles get sore pounding against a boundary. A trial is different than mediation/negotiations. Courts are there to resolve issues not extend them; that isn’t going to play well for H. At any rate, keep your expectations low and follow your values.
Originally Posted by Gerda
I am starting to get really scared that I will end up having to go to trial just because H is too stupid to crunch the numbers. I did yet another spreadsheet that shows that he will make LESS if he sells the house at 20% above appraisal than accepting a buy out at appraised value because of the massive taxes.
Your fear of H being able to move back into the home has been alleviated.
Fear is funny stuff. The mind does feed off the irrational. Do not replace that fear with a new one.
Yes, H is not making his decisions using the numbers, other forces are driving him. Don’t underestimate him. Don’t assume he is too stupid or not aware of the potential losses. He very well could just be playing you; feeding that fear. Remember he does know you, and your buttons.
Originally Posted by DnJ
So DnJ, what is your comforting thought about that for today?
We all have 84 problems. Accept that. Choose your problems; do not have your problems choose you.
Once upon a time an affluent farmer approached Buddha with great hope. He prostrated before the sage and sought his blessings. Buddha raised his hand in benediction.
“O Venerable One!” the farmer said, “I have a major problem and I know only you can help me.”
Buddha kept quiet and the man went onto narrate that his good-for-nothing son was troubling him and that he was mad at his wife because she supported her son over him.
The man said, “Do something so their minds change and they realize how much I’m doing for them.”
“I can’t solve this problem for you,” Buddha replied and lowered his eyes again, in a meditative state.
The farmer told Buddha how he was worried about the upcoming harvest as the weather didn’t seem too favorable and the monkeys were destroying his crop.
“I can’t help you with this one either,” Buddha said calmly.
Still hoping in the powers of Buddha, he told him that many people owed him money and he was having hard time recovering it from his debtors. And that he too owed money to lenders and creditors. He asked Buddha if the sage could give him any remedy or amulet.
“Hmm…” Buddha said, “I can’t solve this problem for you.”
“What good are you then?” the man yelled. “Every one says you are the enlightened one and here you can’t solve any of my problems. Is there absolutely nothing you can do? I’m tired of my terrible life.”
“You see,” Buddha said patiently, as if he hadn’t heard the man’s tirade, “at any point in time, you’ll always have 84 problems in your life. The 84th is the key. If you solve the 84th problem, the first 83 will resolve themselves.”
“Please solve my 84th problem then,” the man said, going back to being humble. “How do I do it?” he added.
“First, we have to identify your 84th problem.”
“What is my 84th problem?”
Buddha smiled and peered deeply into the man’s eyes that were full of desire, doubt and anxiety.
“Your 84th problem is,” Buddha said and paused, “you want to get rid of the first 83 problems.”
We all have 84 problems. Realize the truth of the 84th problem. Much peace and contentment comes from this view. Much comfort.
Life is not problem free. It’s not supposed to be. We all will have problems, that is unavoidable.
Choose them well.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I'm glad to see that you no longer have the anxiety of worrying that H will become a squatter in your home any minute. That is huge, and I am relieved for you.
I don't suppose I can add anything more enlightening or useful than our friend DnJ has already expressed, but I agree that a corner is turned for you. Doesn't that feel good?
Friends,you can't imagine the drama of the last week. The stip of H not being allowed back was on then off then on, he refused to sign unless he added some pork barrels, I held out, my L got furious with me, I thought of waffling, then H caved....
Anyway my latest battle is with thoughts.
I have been learning that if I think about H and all that happened and especially about the OW, I feel terrible. But if I don't, I really enjoy my life, feel good about myself, worries about the money stuff and if I will get to keep my house, etc., but overall, I have joy being alive and projects I want to do, hopes for my future (not romantic but other kinds), and lots more friends and some family. I have been learning that I can push the other thoughts out of my mind. No contact really is healing. I used to feel that not thinking about things was lying to myself because all my thoughts were truly happening in real life. But now I can sort of pretend they aren't happening or just not take them in because I don't have to see or hear anything as I did when he lived here.
But once a week on Wednesdays, and then every other weekend and sometimes in between after texts from H to D10, I get a little unwelcome pipeline. This is quite a lot of pipeline. I am happy in no contact but D10 is the contact. H does a lot to get at me through her. I don't even know if he is doing it on purpose but every time she comes back and I have to hear something, all my peace, joy, hope, happiness, gets toppled. I get it back, don't worry, but it takes me a while. It is so painful. I want to have less pain around those transitions of D back into my home.
Here are two excerpts from my visitation record to give you an idea of what I mean. The issue about the card is that H had a credit card sent here I assume so that he could daily harass me about it for two weeks. I have been asking him to have his mail forwarded since he left in June but then he just writes long diatribes about how this is his home until it's not his home, until he has his money and can create his home, etc. I kept ignoring the notes about the credit card except once in a while to write, "Card is not here," or to say he should have it sent to the bank. I finally had to have a friend write to him to explain that some months ago the postman asked me about my forwarding his mail and I said he didn't live here anymore, so his mail was probably getting sent back. And that I could not be responsible for his personal affairs and that I did not want to have any contact with him. No answer to my friend but he still had D10 come in to look for the card! And mind you, all that is happening while he keeps dragging me back into court to decimate me, refuse my settlement offers, etc. And my motion, if he read it, was quite devastating as far as laying out his abuse and his addiction issues and total abdication of responsibility for the kids, S14's suicidal thoughts, refusal to see him, etc. But he just kept sending me these pseudo-detached texts about his credit card in between!
OK, here are the visitation records.
D10 said -- “Papa said I have a problem. He told me I have a problem and I am going to be a fat person.” She started to cry. I comforted her and told her I knew how much she loved sweets and I did too, and that as she got older, she would have more will power. She came back a minute later for another hug, and while she was hugging me, she wanted to tell me more. She said that he told her that he “wanted all the boys to chase you, and you have to be thin for boys to chase you.”
D10 came home from seeing H. She said she was very annoyed with Papa because he was talking to the other person for over an hour. She said she kept saying, “Papa! Papa!” to get him to get off but he wouldn’t get off the phone. She said, “I only see him for a few hours a week and he spent an hour on the phone with her!” She also told me that “they figured out why Papa’s card hadn’t come.” She told me, Papa said, “I’m so f-ing (she said the word) mad at Mama. She told the postman that I didn’t live there anymore! I’m so f-ing p-sed at her!” I said, “Gosh, that doesn’t seem very nice for you to have to listen to that. Maybe you can tell him not to talk about me to you.” She said, “It’s okay, I am used to him talking like that about you.”
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gerda my girl. Set out two cups; we’re going to have a visit.
(It’s evening so we’ll use glasses, filled with ice, right to the rim; Coke poured in slowly the foamy bubbles rise through the clear cubes.)
I like your post! I smiled through out it. So much sword and shield.
First off, I’m glad H caved. My goodness I think your L’s head would have exploded if that deal fell through.
Thoughts and feelings. That was said so well.
Originally Posted by Gerda
No contact really is healing.
Yay!
Originally Posted by Gerda
... I think about H and all that happened and especially about the OW, I feel terrible...if I don't, I really enjoy my life, feel good about myself... I have joy being alive and projects I want to do, hopes for my future... and lots more friends and some family.
That is great!
Thoughts and feelings. Each influencing the other. However, one can directly control thoughts, which will directly influence feelings.
Mental assertiveness my good friend. Well done! I remember you lamenting, what seems like a long time ago, how difficult it was to have DnJ assertiveness. Ha! Look at you now.
(Helps myself to a Nanaimo bar, or two)
I am proud of you. What a brilliant demonstration of the power of focusing on you.
The Wednesday and every second weekend pipeline.
Originally Posted by Gerda
I get a little unwelcome pipeline.
Originally Posted by Gerda
It is so painful. I want to have less pain around those transitions of D back into my home.
A few suggestion for you (as I have another snack).
Reframe this in your mind. Thoughts and feelings.
A little unwelcome pipeline. No! Think different.
A welcomed pipeline. D10 is sharing her experiences with you. Her mom. The person she trusts and is her safe place to let her guard down and be vulnerable. By thankful for that, for you are blessed!
Welcome those discussions. For you can lead and shine your role model self for her to follow.
With that, there is little to no pain.
You can alter and modify your feelings and beliefs - it all starts with thoughts.
Is H doing this on purpose? Who knows. Is D10 doing this on purpose? No way. She is just being honest and sincere in what she see and hears. Oh, the honest innocent truth of a child.
(Getting dry. Lots of talking. Refills glass.)
(And another tasty treat)
H telling D10 that she’s fat, and boys won’t chase her. Etc... Give her a big hug. Then explain how one can not control what others say and do. Dad is going to do what he is going to do. You can explain your beliefs and views, and encourage her to share her’s and “see” which make the most sense.
You can share mine if you like: Body shaming is bullying - plain and simple. You can’t stop someone from saying whatever they want, regardless how foolish and immature it is. However, you don’t need to listen to it. You have your own heart and mind, use them and think and feel for yourself.
(Hmmm. I feel like another delicious bar is needed. Wow, that pile of 84 is whittling down)
And D10 does have her own mind and sees very well. I love what she said about Dad talking to “her” for an hour on the phone. She knows he could and should be spending it with her. She also know why he doesn’t - I suspect. She is pretty bright.
I did laugh at you telling about D10 repeating the swearing. I still remember the first time my daughter swore in front of me. Hahaha. It’s such a funny story. Don’t sweat the small stuff. At ten she’s heard more than your realize.
And that honest innocent truth - “ It’s okay, I am used to him talking like that about you.”
Gerda that probably hurts. Reframe that for yourself. That is pure gold!!!
D10 is accepting her life very very well. “It’s okay.” What a great thing to hear.
She is a bright kid. She sees what is and has been going on. She knows.
Dad is talking bad about you. You do not demonize him. Who do think she is going to reach out to? Listen to? Look to for advice and guidance? Model her life after?
No one can control another person. D10 seems to get that. She’s adjusted pretty well it sounds like. And of course there are going to be ups and downs.
As much as it hurts to know and hear that you are being dragged through the mud - consider who is doing the dragging. Pay him no attention regarding that. Sound like D10 isn’t either.
DnJ
(Btw you’re out of Cokes and Nanaimo bars)
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I can't believe I never answered this, DnJ. Must have been that sugar overload. I read your note a bunch of times of course. How rude that I didn't talk to you about it. I am going to reply to it properly but first --
So much has happened. It seems that everyday H sinks deeper into the pit of disgusto. I get too tired to even send a report.
I stupidly thought I could finagle a settlement somehow. I had made an offer based on a sale price THIRTY PERCENT above appraisal, but with what he would actually walk away with from a sale -- e.g., less debt and all the many taxes and closing costs, broker's fee, etc. But based on a sale price that is much higher than he would ever get. They said no.
Today they finally offered a buy-out number. They based it on a sale price that was 44% higher than the appraised value and of course with not a single closing cost considered. I discovered that the appraisal added 700 square feet to our house (have not been able to get the appraiser to respond to requests for a redo or for anyone at court to care) so it was already inflated. But even at the insanely inflated sale price they claim they could get, they then said that we'd have to compensate them for not having the chance to go for alimony and an assessment of our rental business at trial, so out of that insanely inflated price they used, they "agreed" to take 75% of the equity from it.
Mind you, there is no way he can get alimony based on the facts and my income. And our rental biz has never shown a profit in ten years (it just pays the mortgage), is not totally above board (e.g., no one could buy it and no one would buy it, they'd just convert house to single family) and of course, if we sold our place, there would be no rental income anymore!
My lawyer had just sent them a note asking H to stop vaping in front of D10 (she came home last night sobbing hysterically over a bunch of things that happened at visitation and as I hugged her I noticed that her hair REEKED of e-cigarettes). So in response to that insane offer, my L replied, "I wonder what was in that vape your client smoked; did he share some with you?" Which at least gave me a good laugh.
I get that H is an MLCer and totally delusional, fine. But why oh why is his L encouraging this kind of insanity? I know for a fact that H has not paid him since my letter to the wife of the guy who was funding his L. Now his L is banking on the sale of the house to get paid, though I also learned that D lawyers are not allowed to put a lien on marital property so I am not sure how he thinks he will get paid. But why would his L encourage this kind of nonsense? If he crunches the numbers, it's quite obvious that a buy out by me will get them more money, faster, than an actual sale. H is delusional, but I assume his L is sane, even if he is evil. So what would be the point, beyond more billable hours?
Now I have to figure out what to do, what gamble to take as far as trial or the current terrible agreement, letting my motion be heard, or working out the current agreement even though it's not very good. But what I learned from this number is that H is totally delusional about the money he will make on a sale, and that there is literally no point in trying to negotiate with him.
Thoughts from my practical friends here are welcome!
Last edited by Gerda; 01/31/2003:05 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I would definitely stay on the appraiser about the extra 700 square feet. You should be able to google your place and find out the exact square footage and present that to your lawyer and let him do the dirty work of getting that appraiser on the phone and back out there to remeasure. Sometimes, our wayward spouses will hire someone that the know and have them inflate the price, etc. Better to get this straightened out now.
As for his lawyer, his lawyer knows that your h is out to lunch and he's going to continue working for him because it's a lot of billable hours for him. Of course, he's going to listen and do whatever your h wants because it's more money in his pocket. Some lawyers have no shame in taking advantage of people. He may have worked a deal w/your h that he will get paid once everything is settled. No one knows what kind of deal they struck.
You need to be asking your lawyer who is the best option for you. Listen to what he has to say and them mull it over.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I am sorry your H is so out to lunch that this property situation seems to never end.
(((Gerda)))
Somewhere along your story I forgot how many appraisals you have had and who found the appraisers. I agree with Job that tax documents should accurately show the square footage. Can the court get involved in designatiing perhaps 3 appraisers, and you take the average of the 3 as the agreed to value? Of course this would require a miraculously aggreeable H, but just a thought.
As for H's attorney, well, more of them than not will rack up as many billable hours as they can. Even if he doesn't recoup the entire amount, it's still substantial for him, I'm sure. At some point I would imagine he will stop working unless he gets paid.
Anyway, if you trust your new attorney to do what's best for you, listen to his advice. Try to take your emotions out of the business side of this (I know, much easier said then done!), and give some thought to your true bottom line to get on with life. Having you and your kids free from this chaos will be money well spent.
It makes no sense at all to come to an agreement that so overvalued the house. Why wouldn’t you simply sell and take your share to invest in a new property? As it is now it’s like you’re buying a property at 40% over it’s value.
A real appraisal is important if this goes to a trail. It’s importance in negations - depends.
My house, our house back then, needed a value for the separation agreement. We could pay someone to appraise its value, get a few done, etc... etc... W, at the time, was in a rush, and wanted to sign over the house anyhow. So we agreed to a value. This amount is far less than an appraised value, but it mattered little. It just had to be documented what she was signing away.
The idea of finding a fair agreement is difficult, and yet straight forward enough. The courts and lawyers do not ensure a fair split. They uphold the wishes of the two applicants, you and H. If you two can find what you both believe to be a fair agreement and will sign it, then it is fair.
When that doesn’t happen, or cannot happen, the courts and lawyers apply the rule of law to the situation. The law then decides and enforces a “fair” agreement.
Originally Posted by Gerda
what I learned from this number is that H is totally delusional about the money he will make on a sale, and that there is literally no point in trying to negotiate with him.
You made an offer, and he counter offered. If he really wanted a trial why counter offer? He is just haggling over money right now. Imagine if you took his offer, is this all over? Would you get the house, business, etc.. and he gets his bag of money?
Originally Posted by Gerda
what to do, what gamble to take as far as trial or the current terrible agreement, letting my motion be heard, or working out the current agreement even though it's not very good.
Do both.
Continue to negotiate and prepare for a trial.
H is talking, so he is negotiable - crazy but is negotiating.
You offered 30% over the appraised value which is already inflated by the 700 extra square feet. So I am guessing if he had accepted that you would be ok with it. In other words the higher appraised value, for the moment, is not a troublesome point for you.
His return offer of 44% higher, is only 14% more - I suspect you would have taken that. It’s the 75% of the equity... which I honestly don’t understand what he is getting at there. I figure it’s not a good thing. If you want to enlighten me, I would appreciate it, but don’t feel you need to.
So what to do. Send another offer. Remove all those fees. Firstly you’re not planning to sell, so those expenses won’t be incurred. Secondly, they muddy it up for H. He is having trouble with one number. (Remember all those spreadsheet he just didn’t understand?) Keep it simple, and present it in a way that lets him think it is his idea.
And while doing this, keep pushing for a proper appraisal. Now, it does sound like the business is not appraised, so consider your strategy carefully.
Again, I’m not sure what the 75% thing is actually referring too, but you sound like you don’t want it. You could validate his 44% higher value and apply you percentage to that and offer him basically 14% more. The key is to figure out what the other party really wants. My XW just wanted out, pretty easy. Your H seems to just want money, not the actual house or business.
Maybe something along the lines of - I can agree to your stated value of the properties. With that, my initial offer would increase to $xxx. I would forego reassessment of the properties contingent upon acceptance of this agreement.
And of course you need all legalese wording and statements regarding all rights to alimony is waive and the lump sum payment is including H’s income upfront.
An interesting exercise is to reverse things. Imagine taking his deal, but you take his part and he takes your’s. You get all that money and 75%... and he gets the house. Would you take that? Is the deal really far off the mark? If you immediately jump upon such an theoretical solution, his offer is probably way out to lunch. My XW’s offer. No way I would take her side of it.
Such a mental exercise quickly highlights the fairness of things, and unfairness of things. In my case it was overwhelmingly in my favour, something I did feel guilty for and had to find forgiveness too. But that’s another story.
I believe negotiating yields the best results. Everyone has different desires and wants. Perhaps you can leverage that, offering some of your lesser priority items and find a middle ground.
Just food for thought.
Listen to your lawyer, he does sound rather good. I like him, from what you’ve said.
Hoping Saturday finds you well.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
