Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 3

[crdcheck]

So, big non-D development last today - I told my parents that I am cutting them off. The straw that broke the camel's back is that my W asked them to watch her (used to be our) dog over Thanksgiving and they said yes without telling me. I've asked them to not interact with W and to let me manage the relationship. They've also never gotten along - W hates my mom, thinks that she raised me poorly and, to a significant extent, believes that many of my issues are due to poor parenting. So, I'm not asking them to stop being friends, I'm asking them not to do anything they weren't already doing.

I'll also add that my parents have done no favors for me since W moved out, they haven't visited my home since W moved out, I've offered time with D4 to them (they are always asking but it has to be on their terms), so the idea that they are going out of their way to help W while doing nothing for me is... well, I'd say "enraging" but it's par for the course. So not even "disappointing" anymore. I'm just tired of it. When I called them to understand their logic they essentially blamed me for not telling them that we aren't sharing the dog and that they are just trying to have good relationships. No understanding, no validation, no apology.

I look at my issues (some narcissism, depression, childhood emotional neglect, others) and, while I don't sit around feeling sorry for myself, I'm angry with them for the damage they've done and their complete lack of acknowledgment, let alone atonement. Even as an adult I've always "owed" them for anything they've done, they've never had my back, and it's always about them. When W complained about them during our MR I blew it off - every family has issues. Mine is just different, not better or worse. And even if they were bad, so what? I can't go back in time. But now that they are causing more stress than they are taking away and interfering in my relationship, a relationship that I believe they helped to worsen, that's it - I'm done.

So, I sent an email that said that I was essentially "separating" from them, don't want any more discussions (too many already, boundaries ignored, etc.). My dad responded that they would still see D4 and that we would work together on logistics. Uh...? No, you're out. Feel free to ask W to give up her time, or go to court and I, my brother, and your entire family can go on the record about what terrible parents you were. Also, that's your first thought? I mean, I asked you to give me space and, not only do you ignore that, you are talking about your time with my daughter? Selfish and tone-deaf.

FWIW, it's not like my parents were physically abusive or anything like that, and they were generous in many ways. But emotionally it is neglect, and I've come to believe that my mother is a bona fide narcissist. Again, this doesn't excuse any of my behavior or poor choices but, as I look to my future, I don't see a place for people who don't have my back, who I can't trust, and who won't do what's in my best interests. So, they're out for now.

it's funny, as I sent it I thought that it felt like I was divorcing them - I wish that they would pick up Divorce Busting or something and seek to change themselves. I would love to have a relationship with them. But I can't do it with them being like they are.

[crdcheck]

Non-update update.

Still tracking to divorce, barely talking to W. Not avoiding, we just aren't talking. I've tried to be more positive around her - we mostly chat over text or email, I try to imagine her as a someone checking me out at the grocery store and be outgoing. But then she brags about whatever and it really gets on my nerves. I brag back. Part of me knows I shouldn't but another part of me thinks that "hey, this is me, too." I don't know.

This weekend has been tough. Very long work week so it was nice to be able to relax. Though, by "relax" I mean working out, yoga, putting together furniture, laundry, errands, meeting various contractors who are building out the apartment in my first floor. So, Sunday night and I'm still exhausted. I keep a Spotify playlist of all of the songs from concerts I'm going to soon and was listening throughout the weekend. Many make me think of W. I'm not going to but I want to reach out to her. It's the usual feeling - I know that I did wrong to her, that I don't want our old relationship back even if she offered it, but man, we were a great team in so many ways... it's crazy to let it go. I'm going to stay strong and hold the course. Still, really wish I could tell her that I miss her.

[crdcheck]

Interesting couple of days, no fireworks, but interesting.

First, something I'm proud of - W used to do all of the cooking in our house (she's a great cook), I did all of the cleaning. I can barely get past eggs. Well, I looked up a recipe for bolognese and made it yesterday. One of those long-simmer recipes. I doubled the size so I'd have plenty of leftovers. Mistake was that I started at 8 PM and was cooking until midnight, ha. Also made pesto for my dinner last night (so two dishes in one night!). But the moment of pride came tonight when I offered to let D4 try it. She's in that phase where she doesn't want to try anything and even pepperoni pizza is too much for her. She loved it! I don't think that I'm getting a Michelin star for my work but she says what she thinks. Between that and the French toast (which she wants this weekend) I'm feeling more confident in my cooking skills.

So, my attorney reviewed the mediation agreement and found a few small issues but nothing having to do with the content - it's fair. So, we're good to sign soon. W wanted to do it like tomorrow and I pushed back because there are a few things that remain open that, well, I won't let stop the mediation process, but I want to discuss before signing. Her brother has a possession of mine that she's refusing to bring back to me (brother lives 3+ hours away). And there are a couple of financial things. I'm dreading this conversation - it's going to play into her narrative that I don't care about what she thinks, only care about myself, etc. Almost certainly some NGS with me (I would have similar issues with someone other than W) but worse because I'm questioning myself (again) as to whether I should ignore these to keep the peace (or avoid conflict). She pushed me to discuss over text and I said that I wanted to do it in person. She then scheduled time at work tomorrow - I decline the invite and told her that I didn't want to discuss at work (not sure what she was thinking), suggested that we grab a coffee Friday afternoon before I pick up D4 from school. We'll see how that goes.

[DaB35]

Hi Crd, some nice updates to read here.

I get what you mean about not deliberately avoiding the S, and just not talking instead. It's hard to know whether you should reach out or not. I've been thinking it's best not to, unless you have kids and then keep everything about logistics and nothing more.

I think if she does brag to you, I agree you shouldn't react. Don't point-score as she'll probably pick up on that and its ammo against you for when she sees her friends.

I agree about being a great team. It is so easy to think about all the wonderful times and think, "Why is this all being given up at the drop of a hat?"

Regarding the finances, be polite and firm but not aggressive. If she kicks off, validate how she feels to a degree but don't cave and state calmly that getting the possession back is important to you. Remember - NMMNG!

Well done on the cooking. When I met my W I could only do scrambled eggs or beans on toast! Now I can do lots of dishes - fish dishes, home-made burgers/meatballs, squid, scallops, risotto , make my own pesto, make my own sauces from scratch, etc. Went on a Spanish cookery course with work colleagues a few months ago and really enjoyed it; I'd recommend it as a GAL activity. Go with a few friends. I have a new found love for garlic and ginger lol!

[crdcheck]

Hey, was reading some old threads, this one in particular, and got to thinking about my sitch:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653328#Post2653328

I suspect an EA at this point but we've been separated physically since Aug, BD in May, so kind of a grey area and I'm not judging. Point is, I think that W is WAW, not WW - should I be altering any of my DB approaches?

It probably doesn't matter, especially at this point, but I can't help but to think that I'm "setting up a chair outside of a tunnel without cheese" if I keep doing the same thing. Don't get me wrong, the "same thing" in this case is yielding positive individual results but am I doing anything that is compromising the possibility of recon?

As a refresh, W has said that I'm a narcissist, that I always get my way, don't care about others. I understand her perspective and am addressing her concerns in general (not directly since we aren't really talking - working on my validation) but it's still skewed, she's rewriting history. So, my detaching, not reaching out, standing up for myself, etc., I don't think shows as a "different" (better!) me. What do you all think?

[LH19]

I disagree. It shows you love yourself and value yourself enough to walk away from a person who doesn’t see your value. You are nobody’s plan B. You’re operating under the illusion of action and fell you need to do something to change your situation around. In that case crush your life and live it to the fullest.

Time and space gives her a chance to miss you and realize that your not the reason she is unhappy.

[crdcheck]

I disagree. It shows you love yourself and value yourself enough to walk away from a person who doesn’t see your value. You are nobody’s plan B. You’re operating under the illusion of action and fell you need to do something to change your situation around. In that case crush your life and live it to the fullest.

Time and space gives her a chance to miss you and realize that your not the reason she is unhappy.

Thanks, that's what I thought but want to challenge myself, especially when I'm feeling comfortable with an approach (am I falling into an old pattern or is the new one taking hold?)

Of course, maybe I was the reason she was unhappy - I can say that I'm a lot happier with her not around. I miss her regularly but owning just about every part of my life has been really freeing. No more hoping that my sacrifices are recognized/reciprocated, it's all me.

[crdcheck]

So, had the scariest conversation today I've had... in as long as I can remember. Met W at a cafe to talk about a couple of things that I wanted her perspective on before signing the papers. One is that her brother has a firearm of mine that she wanted out of our house when D4 was born and he said he would sell. He never did. He lives 3+ hours away and I'd like her to either get it back to me somehow or sell it.

The other was that she decided to separate finances before the divorce - it will shock everyone to know that it was right before our bonuses came out and hers was certainly more than mine. I agreed to separate expenses but not income. Yes, the money matters, but the principle matters more. She wanted everything to be 50/50 even though I put more equity into everything, she wanted my car that I owned pre-marriage to be considered an asset, and so on, so I feel that this is consistent. Of course, I knew that she was going to see it differently.

I walked in confident, asked her how things were going. Was positive. Started with the firearm topic since it was more straight-forward. She tried to put it back on me to take care of it and I said that I was happy to provide options but it's really up to her. She said that it probably wouldn't be in my possession before the papers had to be signed (apparently, since she filed in early Oct we have until the end of the month to notarize the agreement). I told her that was fine.

Next topic.

My heart was POUNDING. I knew that she wasn't going to agree outright and, even though I prepared myself for what to say when she told me that I was "taking HER bonus" I was terrified. Like, more than during reviews at work, more than when I'm speaking in front of dozens of people. Even now I don't know if I should have said anything - am I a just chasing dollars? Or is that the nice guy in me looking for ways to avoid conflict?

So, I asked her how she wanted to manage the remaining house sale proceeds and D4 expenses, and then the income true-up. She was confused about the last, thought that we had separated finances when the house sold (I was careful when we'd discussed this as I figured that she was trying to get me to agree... side note: my old company paid out a bonus after she BD'd me and she was more than happy to consider that marital income). It went better than I thought - I told her that I could see why she would see it that way and am open to her perspective, if she wants some time to think it through that's fine. She agreed to that, didn't seem angry, more flustered. I think that she was scared about the whole conversation - I'd refused to discuss over text (tone, misunderstanding, etc.) despite her demanding that I prep her so she may have anticipated worse. She certainly wasn't expecting it.

She told me about something my parents reached out to her about, asked me how she should respond, and I told her that it's not a "big decision" and that she's welcome to handle as she sees fit. I asked if there was anything else, she said "no", then I told her to have a great weekend, grabbed my coat, and left to pick up D4 from her school.

Look, this is kind of a non-story, I get it. But you all have no idea how much this scares me even though I know that it can't have much of an impact on our relationship. That's what's off of my shoulders in general now and, once the papers are signed, will be completely off of my shoulders. I still want to "bust" this divorce but I know that, if we are to reconcile, I need us to work together to be able to have tough conversations. To her credit, she didn't react nearly as badly as I thought. At least, not as far as I know - who knows what she's doing right now.

[unchien]

crd -

I think you handled this well.

You aren't going to bust your D by being nice and caving in. You also showed her some compassion and gave her time to think through your proposal.

My W is also trying to negotiate agreements before we start mediation, trying to understand what position I will take, etc. And I am taking the same position as you... I don't want to communicate about these matters over text. You did right to stand up for yourself and handle the conflict head-on.

Also, you didn't get sucked into defending your position (which then would give your W opportunities to attack your shining).

Anyways, I don't see this as a non-story, but maybe that's because I identify with your personality and know how hard this stuff can be for some of us. Tough conversations are not easy to have.

[crdcheck]

crd -

I think you handled this well.

You aren't going to bust your D by being nice and caving in. You also showed her some compassion and gave her time to think through your proposal.

My W is also trying to negotiate agreements before we start mediation, trying to understand what position I will take, etc. And I am taking the same position as you... I don't want to communicate about these matters over text. You did right to stand up for yourself and handle the conflict head-on.

Also, you didn't get sucked into defending your position (which then would give your W opportunities to attack your shining).

Anyways, I don't see this as a non-story, but maybe that's because I identify with your personality and know how hard this stuff can be for some of us. Tough conversations are not easy to have.

Thanks, Unchien, that means a lot. And it is turning into a story, ha (ha?)

W emailed me on Sat to say that she was going to have her parents give me money for the firearm (why not her, I don't know - maybe to make me feel guilty? Doesn't matter), agreed on final expense true-up (remaining proceeds from house sale), and then told me that we weren't doing income true-up, that finances were all settled when the house sold. I genuinely see her point/perspective, and she probably could have filed a separation order that would have formalized this which, depending on how I responded, would have led to a fight then or me caving. Regardless, she didn't, and apparently her attorney is telling her that separation can be basically whenever she wants (e.g. when she BD'd me, when she moved out, etc.). It makes no sense, of course - a deadbeat WAS can't just BD and take his/her income. But in W's mind this makes sense.

So, few emails back and forth, fully-respectful, W not budging, me saying that I'm open to compromise, etc. Last one was her saying that she'll "move forward in another direction" if this is a sticking point for me (I'm assuming that she means that she'll litigate). I sent a note back saying that I'm open to compromise, that litigation leaves both of us (and D4) worse off, and that her proposed approach doesn't feel fair or equitable, but said that the choice was ultimately hers. I also offered to have us visit the mediator to help explain the legal standpoint on this (given that it sounds like we are both getting different legal advice).

We'll see how this goes. I don't want to litigate, I do want this to be over (i.e. I'm looking forward to signing papers), I don't want to cave in. I'll have to see which of those I can succeed in. I mean, I don't want to risk the first two for the third. Wish me luck (and, as always, share advice)!