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Where there is mole there is fire and always trust your gut.


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�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
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kbuenob Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LH19
Where there is mole there is fire and always trust your gut.


Hi LH19

But do i confront her based only on this gut feeling that i have? I have nothing else.

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But do i confront her based only on this gut feeling that i have? I have nothing else.


IMO you can't "confront" her based on your gut alone. Heck, even when you have proof.. even rock solid proof... a WW will often just deny it ("Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?") or try to argue around it or in some way put it back on you ("You SPIED on me!!"). I've been through it... I know.. and i've seen others here go through it as well. That's why, if you think you need it and can handle it, you get your proof, but then you never, NEVER share with her exactly what you know (because she'll just argue points about it or flat out deny it) or how you got it (because then a) she'll try to turn it back on you for snooping/spying and b) it burns that source of intel if you need it in the future.) Best thing is to just get the intel/data you need... and then stop looking, because you already know what you need to know. Then, when you confront her, you need only say "I know. I wont have an open marriage. I want you out". If you need to drop the odd detail (such as OM's name, or whatever, it probably doesn't matter) but the more detail you offer up the more you invite discussion/denial, which is completely unproductive, and the more you make it about HER and not about your boundaries... which is what you need to establish and enforce. You can probably establish such boundaries even without knowing for sure if she is in an A: "W, I know you have been spending alot of social time on your own... i don't know what you are doing, but I won't live in an open marriage or "share" you", but You obviously have a bit more weight on your side if you have some proof of infidelity, as well as, obviously, having been alerted to the sitch so you can be "on guard" (read the threads on boundaries for help, here... I was pretty bad at it initially.)

In my case, I flat out caught my W with a burner phone. Twice. Once when she had not turned off the buzzer, left it visible, and OM called her on it when i was standing right there and i picked it up. She had denials both times, even though what she was doing was clear.

I also faced denials when she had been up to no good and i knew she had been. I eventually learned that there was no point in continually policing/confronting her, and established my boundaries that i wouldn't share her or be in an open marriage. Later on, when she got caught continuing to contact OM (and, actually, after nearly an hour of sitting silent together in a car in the park, admitting/confessing to it) I indicated i was going to walk, and she offered to restart counselling, destroy the burner phone, and "no contact" OM (which she had already kind sort committed to before-- like i said at first i was not great at formulating/stating/enforcing boundaries. Even thereafter, it turned out she had been entertaining regular calls from OM at work, even as they were not "seeing" each other... a situation i would not have found out about had i not kept the options open on some of my surveillance by keeping details from her.

At any rate, Readers Digest version: If you think you can handle it, my thinking is that it is best to know, but, once you know, establish your boundaries (and enforce them, when appropriate) and stop looking. Keep the option open to spot check her if she indicates the A is over and/or otherwise wants to stay in the house or if she otherwise indicates she wants to come back to marriage and work on the MR but, otherwise, you know she cheated on you and the MR is, for the time being, over. Once you know that, there is no further reason to check on her unless you suspect she is violating a boundary or if she wants to "come back" and you need to spot check her.


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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FWIW, the way i found out (and it was completely inadvertent) was checking our cell phone records (our son has Tourette's syndrome and some other issues and I imposed some phone limits on him so i was checking his calls/texts--- in the process noticed my wife was making about a zillion texts/calls a day to a friend of mine (whose number i had committed to memory and recognize on the online billing record). Cell phone records are, IMO, fair game, especially if you are the one paying the bill. See a frequent number you don't recognize and these days it's pretty easy to check it on reverse phone look up or white pages or whatever.

Prior to seeing the phone records, my W had been showing a lot of the same signs your W and others WWs on here have shown... going out late with GFs more often, dressing more provocatively, working out/losing weight, phone-guarding, but i was pretty clueless. Honestly, I was kind of done with MR, too, at that point. It wasn't until I saw the phone records and then overheard a call between her and OM a couple of days later (Again, completely unplanned/inadvertent) that i was shocked into waking up.

In my case, the burner phones, both times, i just got "lucky" and found when she was careless with them. Straight Talk wireless (carried by WalMart) is the primary offender, here... After the fact in both cases i actually found the receipts from her purchases, which she again carelessly left laying around.

Other than getting lucky when they slip up or by checking the phone (and maybe Credit Card--but she'd have to be really stupid to, say, be getting hotels or anything on your joint cards) records, not sure what you can do. If she has an android phone and a google account and hasn't thought to shut down her location tracker and clear her history then google tracks everything... and i mean EVERYTHING. Downloaded and uninstalled apps (What'sApp is a popular one, and a big red flag, though there are many others), web searches, location history, map searches... in some cases if you haven't turned it off it even saves speech to text and in some cases even voice messages and conversations. All of that stuff is accessible from any computer with an internet browser if you have the google/gmail password. Not sure if apple phones do the same or not. Bottom line, here, though, is that if she has been careful there are ways around all of that stuff.

Only way to be really sure is to hire a P.I., but that can obviously get pricey. Alot of the stuff they use (small voice recorders, GPS trackers) are available for purchase even on Amazon, but are of uncertain legality depending on your jurisdiction. Probably best in those cases to leave it to a PI if you can, but, if you can't, be EXTREMELY careful and know what the law is.

Other than that, I'll repeat again: 1) Dont go searching for something you think you wouldn't be able to handle if you found out and 2) Once you DO find out, don't keep looking except in narrow, spot check-type circumstances where appropriate... it can become an obsession and, in the end, also make it harder for YOU to return to the marriage if the info you find is too scarring.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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kbuenob Offline OP
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Hoosjim,

Thank you, i appreciate your advice. I've been looking at our phone logs and she does talk to her mom and sister quite often. She also talks to this single friend of hers that I dont know (I was able to look up her number). She talks to her quite frequently. I may be jumping to conclusions, but the thought of my W having a lesbian affair has crossed my mind. Ever since this new friend came into the picture is when things started to take a turn for the worst. I met her once and I remember the meeting being quite awkward. Usually her friends are nice and welcoming towards me, this friend was a bit standoffish.

My wife has an Iphone, so things are a bit more complicated when it comes to digging up information. I do feel like if I know the truth it will make it a lot easier for me to let go of my W.

When i was younger (19), I was married and my XW then cheated on me. Once I found out the truth, it was easy for me to say goodbye and kick her out. after which she came back crawling on her knees for me to take her back. maybe this process will happen again...

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kb, are you in IC?

I had a good friend that had two exes that cheated on him. He was severe type 1 diabetic. The stress of his second failed marriage and his disease took his life in his mid-40s. Do not try to deal with this yourself. As I said, these kinds of things cause a type of PTSD. And that is a serious thing.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
kb, are you in IC?

I had a good friend that had two exes that cheated on him. He was severe type 1 diabetic. The stress of his second failed marriage and his disease took his life in his mid-40s. Do not try to deal with this yourself. As I said, these kinds of things cause a type of PTSD. And that is a serious thing.


I 2nd IC. If for nothing else, it helped me get all the confusing and contradicting thoughts out of my head and seeing someone taking notes helped me to let go of a lot of it. I walked in to my first session and wasnt sure where I would start. I was out of my comfort zone but as soon as I sat on the couch, it all came pouring out. I put blind trust in someone I had just met to listen to everything I had to say, begin to organize all my cluttered thoughts, and determine where to start. Fastest 50 minutes of my life. I walked out with a significant weight off my shoulders and a little clarity in my head.


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Wow kb!
I feel like Im in the exact same position as you. I just submitted my first post looking for the same help and guidance as you.

Ive been married to my college sweetheart for 12 years and weve been together for about 17 years. Ive been seeing the signs for a while now and one of them was my 40th birthday in April where I barely even saw her the whole day. My BD was on 10/08 and our 12Y anniversary was 5 days later. I bought her roses and wrote a long letter but we did nothing else that day. Both those days felt very dark and lonely. She hasnt said the words but I know shes not in love with me and is not attracted to me.
Ive moved to the basement and we are living like everything is ok for the kids, but I have a hard time determining if shes actually enjoying time with me or if its all an act for the kids. We havent had any physical contact in two weeks. Its confusing as hell and hard to stay positive but we need to realize thats all we can do right now.
Working on ourselves is the only way forward. Ive been working out, eating better, have had one appt with an IC and have scheduled another 5, and trying to GAL.

Try small, repeatable, positive things that you can do to change your daily routine. Last night, I went to a bar by myself to watch the Steelers game. I never do that. It definitely peaked her curiosity to see me go out by myself, especially on a week night. It felt great! Small steps for now.


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steve, jr425

Thanks guys. I tried one session with a IC but walked out feeling kind of gipped. Maybe that particular IC just wasn't for me. She didn't offer up any kind of advice (not sure that thats what they're there for). I ended up spilling my guts to her just like I do with my mom. After 50 mins, I didn't feel any better than I did when i walked in. The bigger problem is that I can't afford an IC, at least on a consistent basis.

I do find comfort in talking to my mom and brother though. They love my W and are very understanding, so they don't try to crucify her every chance they get. I find great comfort in talking to them. I will try to find another IC though - any tips on trying to find the "right" one?

jr425, yes I've been following your posts and sounds like you are on the right track!

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
steve, jr425

Thanks guys. I tried one session with a IC but walked out feeling kind of gipped. Maybe that particular IC just wasn't for me. She didn't offer up any kind of advice (not sure that thats what they're there for). I ended up spilling my guts to her just like I do with my mom. After 50 mins, I didn't feel any better than I did when i walked in. The bigger problem is that I can't afford an IC, at least on a consistent basis.

I do find comfort in talking to my mom and brother though. They love my W and are very understanding, so they don't try to crucify her every chance they get. I find great comfort in talking to them. I will try to find another IC though - any tips on trying to find the "right" one?


One of my self realizations was that since my mom passed nearly 10 years ago, I havent talked to anyone the way I used to talk to her. She always kept me grounded and would have never let me get this lethargic and complacent and if she was still here, I wouldnt be on this forum. Its great that you have her and your brother to lean on.
I have the same disappointment in my IC so far but will report back next week after session 3 to let you know how it goes.

Originally Posted by kbuenob
jr425, yes I've been following your posts and sounds like you are on the right track!


This was an accidental re-post. I hit the back button one too many times on your thread. Sorry about that!


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