So into my nightstand drawer it went. I didn't even think of it like a signal I was going to date. Now I'm wondering if it was a mistake? I just didn't think much of it, sometimes I leave my ring off anyway, before all this. Regardless, W hasn't said anything to me about thinking I'm seeing someone (last year she did), just her sister. She has however made it clear she is tracking me on the credit cards when I go out and gave herself away that she was frustrated she saw nothing from my night out on Friday (because I have caught on to this).
Interesting how that works, isn't it? As soon as they think you are up to something on your own... making your own way, getting a life, having fun, perhaps even <gasp> finding someone else... they get all interested. Being mysterious is good, keep it up. None of her business right now, anyway. Interesting how her little "naked in the tub" music ploy came pretty soon thereafter. Only a temperature check, obviously, but, still... They will never find you so attractive as when you are walking away. The freer, better, stronger, more independent and confident person you are, the more attractive you will be to all women including, if you are still interested in her, your WW (And also the happier you will be with yourself and with your life and, in general, with everything).
I am one of those people who thinks that affairs, emotional or otherwise, are always ultimately found out and that in this day and age it is impossible to keep a secret like that forever. Your W is definitely doing some suspicious things and there is some smoke and, at the least, she is not being completely open with you, but i would have expected a bigger slip up or reveal by now. WW's typically have their heads in the clouds and don't always do the best job of covering their tracks. If your W is having an A, she is being pretty sharp about it. Maybe ask yourself how you would feel if you actually got confirmation she was texting/confiding with an OM or otherwise having an EA? Would you feel any differently about your goals/ approach and direction? What if you found out she was actively sleeping with someone else... same questions. There is merit to considering the approach of examining WON you can make peace in your mind with the "worst case scenario", and then making such peace and moving on with your life, GALs, etc. Sometimes when you DO get confirmation of infidelity, it comes in a form you can never unsee/unhear/un-experience again. There were things i heard in my own sitch that were VERY hard to hear, and that i still haven't completely gotten over, and that, even with my MR pretty healthy at this point, cause me to have feelings of hurt and resentment towards my W at times. This is not an argument for willful ignorance, but, rather, a plea to consider what your goals are, who you want to be and how your approach to your own life (let alone your MR) meshes with this.
You are getting great advice from Sandi2 and others on here... listen up, and God Bless.
Last edited by hoosjim; 10/23/1907:46 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
hoosjim, your questions are extremely helpful. You are right about the extra pain and damage caused by confirmations of infidelity. I really have to consider if it's worth it. But I also completely agree with you that these things always reveal themselves and I also would have expected a bigger slip up by now. She would have to be almost a professional to be pulling it off with so little evidence. And considering only a year ago, she was exactly like you said, head in the clouds, oblivious apparently to how obvious she was making it, it just seems unlikely she would somehow suddenly be an expert. I will keep my eyes open, but there really just might not be an A. Just overall waywardness as Sandi discussed is possible.
I am leaving in the morning to go to my grandfather's funeral out of state. I am still fighting the bad feelings yesterday's conversation gave me. I have anxiety about her coming home today. Part of me wants to grant her wish and just stay away with my family, perhaps not totally defining how long. Right now, I am only supposed to be gone for two days. But if I am honest, this is just in hopes that it would somehow change her mind. That when she stops having this battle to fight over getting me out, I won't be able to be the bad guy anymore. That she will be here with no help and no support and find that she is not magically happier. So I feel it is a foolish thing to do for those reasons. That it is not in line with my detachment and letting go of the MR. And once I leave, I may never be able to return. At this point, I don't even feel it is ridiculous to say that I don't know if I trust leaving all my possessions and dog here with her.
After moving past my satisfaction at recognizing and fighting her manipulation, I am just feeling broken hearted. I am trying to detach and let go, but today I just feel so SAD. I am proud I am standing up for myself and not falling for her antics, but I read a post Sandi wrote me last year that talked about how I could call out her behavior and not tolerate it, but it will not change the fact that if she does no work, the MR will not improve. This remains true today. The MR I dream of is just that--a dream. I guess I am mourning over a fantasy.
Today is just a journal day. As I said, yesterday was really rough. I wrote my last post just before W came home. I think the fact that the previous convo affected me so much even 24 hours later shows I still have a long way to go with detachment. Even though she wasn’t able to bend me at the time, I was still fighting feeling bendy a day later. As you could see with my frantic thoughts about leaving and giving her what she wants. I also had the extra weight of my own personal stuff, namely this funeral and the travel. But back to that I’m a minute.
When W came home yesterday she went wordlessly into her room and locked the door. The bendiness intensified. I tried to ignore/fight it. After about an hour, I succumbed to the first of any lapses in what I would deem pursuit. Don’t worry, it is very minor. I have been having an issue getting a dentist appointment because W is my sponsor and I need her defense login to find a provider. So I chose this as my excuse to make contact. I knocked on the door and asked if I could come in. She said no, what do I want. I said I needed help with the login. She was extremely grouchy and I thought for a minute that she just wasn’t going to answer and I would have to walk away. Turns out she was looking it up I guess and did give me the info. I said thank you and turned to leave (remember this conversation is through a closed door). Then she asked what I was having for dinner. Still using her best “I hate you” voice. I told her I was having leftovers. She said IF I made her some (not a direct request), could I leave it outside the door. I immediately said absolutely not, if she wants me to serve her dinner, she has to at least say thank you to my face. I know, I shouldn’t be serving her dinner at all but at this point it was a silly game about the closed door and I forced her to give in. She agreed.
I went back upstairs to heat the leftovers and she then texted what about xx or XX? (Options for take out). My anxiety was so high yesterday I had trouble eating much and I thought this sounded good. So I chose one (skipped the indecisive crap) and said I would go, tell me her order. She said we should order online and I should come look at the menu with her. So I went back down, the door is now open, and went into the room where she was laying in the bed, in only underwear. Similar to the music bath episode from the other day, I was then very close and looking at her phone with her. Some messages came in from her mom and the coworker I originally thought could be OM (more on this in a minute). She again did not seem concerned about any messages I might see. So we made our order and off I went to pick it up (I know I know, I said I cracked a little didn’t I?). At that point she was still in little kid tantrum mode, trying to be mad and grumpy. When I got back, the mood was gone, she had gotten dressed and moved into the living room downstairs and was playing video games with previously mentioned coworker.
I will take my aside to discuss the coworker...if you read the post where I was confused about who this person was, it is because typically I only hear her coworkers by last name (military). This one has an extremely common first name that could be either gender. It has all become clear since that this is the girl that sped in and picked her up that day she went to the bar. Seems she is getting pretty chummy with this girl, who surprise surprise just got divorced. Fantastic. I now suspect this is where she is getting her D info from, I don’t even think she has actually done online research regarding military pay support/alimony etc. It seems the little texting I have seen is largely with this girl.
Back to the story, she was on the game chat playing with her and I brought the food in. She said thank you and I immediately went upstairs to eat. Last time I hung around down there, when she first got back, was when she moved into the guest room due to my encroachment
..due to my encroachment on the common space. As soon as I was sitting down to eat and she called up asking where I was eating. I told her the kitchen and she asked why. Then she said I should come downstairs. So I took my food down and sat at the other end of the couch. She unplugged the game chat to tell me about some secret work stuff (again, I know I’m not supposed to let her talk to me about her day, but it’s really hard when this seems to be the main urge she has to talk to me. I’m working on it). So I ate and listened and then she invited me to join the game. I played with her and new BFF for about a half hour and then BFF went to bed and W asked if I wanted to keep playing. I said one more game and then I have to go bed to be up early for my flight. After I went to bed, she texted asking if I need a ride to the airport and what time. I told her no thanks, the flight is very early, I will just park my car there. She said okay let her know if I change my mind and she is going to sleep “just in case”. Um it was 10 pm I’m not sure when I was going to change my mind between then and 3:30 am when I had to leave. I relied thank you but I should be good. Goodnight.
Since this post is already way too long, I won’t even discuss the nightmare I experienced at the airport. But W texted asking if I made it and I told her a brief summary of the situation. She said I’m so sorry. This was all at about 4:30 Am. She texted again a bit later to say she didn’t want to get up and was going in to work late because she can and deserves it (she recently became the boss). I said enjoy the perks, taking off now. And that was that. I am on layover now and the travel situation has been so bad and my anxiety about the funeral is high, I don’t even care about the sitch at the moment. Looking forward to these couple days away from it (but not looking forward to them in general) and tidying up some of these slip ups.
I see a pattern that I want to attempt to point out. You seem to be somewhat blind to how she sets you up to be manipulated, plus you rationalize and give yourself permission to go along with what she wants. Look at the following:
First, is the set up: "Then she asked what I was having for dinner. Still using her best “I hate you” voice. I told her I was having leftovers." I have seen her use this particular method to set you up, many times last year. It starts with her getting you to serve her a meal.
Going into manipulation #1: "She said IF I made her some, could I leave it outside the door".
Rationalization #1: "(not a direct request)"
" I immediately said absolutely not, if she wants me to serve her dinner, she has to at least say thank you to my face". It appears that you totally miss how you are being played (manipulated). You want to make her thank you to your face. That would be fine, except you miss the bigger picture of how you are doing her bidding to get a measly thank-you.
Manipulation #2: "she then texted what about xx or XX? (Options for take out)".
Rationalization #2: "My anxiety was so high yesterday I had trouble eating much and I thought this sounded good".
Manipulation #3: "She said we should order online and I should come look at the menu with her".
By this time, you appear to stop rationalizing, and just do what she says. It must be very draining to live in this type of situation.
Manipulation #4: "So I went back down, the door is now open, and went into the room where she was laying in the bed, in only underwear". "So we made our order and off I went to pick it up".
"Back to the story, she was on the game chat playing with her and I brought the food in. She said thank you and I immediately went upstairs to eat". So, you got your thank-you, but look at the hoops she made you jump through before getting a measly thank-you.
Four times she manipulated you in a few short minutes, and it was all hooked to you serving her that meal. I hope you can understand that the meal was not important to her. That was simply a tool she used to play the manipulation game. You get distracted by other things, like the phone.......or making her say thank-you to your face. But let me tell ya, this girl was in full control here, and enjoys playing you.
I simply point this out. It is not to harass you. If it helps you see how she works you, where she starts, and how you give yourself permission to follow whatever she says.........then hopefully, that is the beginning of awareness and being your own person. I am not beating you down (((44))). I am not saying you are less of a man. Sometimes we all experience a certain blindness to those we love.
My heart goes with you as you attend the memorial services for your grandfather.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you, Sandi. It helps me SO much to see it clearly. And be called out for my own rationalization. I knew I was weak that day and did an especially poor job. You talk a lot about how she wears me down and even though I stood strong the day prior, I still felt those effects. I think I can get better at this. I feel myself growing and becoming stronger, and better at seeing everything clearly for what it is.
The memorial service was really nice and as expected very hard. I did not expect to feel emotional about W not being there with me. But that was actually one of the hardest parts. Hearing stories about my grandfather, some I had never heard, remembering where I come from and not having W there to share it with. And support me. She did send a message saying she was thinking of me and my family and if I needed to talk, she was there. So frustrating. How many times she has said she is there, and then apologized for not being there, because she knows she isn’t. She also texted about several other things and wanted to have chit chat convos. I have to not even think about any of this because I will always reach the same confusing place of failing to understand why she wants me gone, to stay here with my family, and I go for only two days and she can’t keep away.
I am on way back home now. Much smoother travel experience so far, thankfully. W sent a text saying she was washing MY bedding. She also said she laid in the bed one morning. I feel pretty confident nothing fishy happened while I was away. She was on the group chat we have for gaming with all our friends and seemed to be doing that most of the weekend. If there is no A, I feel much more conflicted about responding to her messages and listening to her work talk etc. She even “scheduled” with me to talk about work stuff when I got back because she couldn’t tell me over the phone and has a lot to say. My main focus is avoiding being manipulated.
Thank you, Sandi. It helps me SO much to see it clearly. And be called out for my own rationalization.
Maybe it is a coping method, IDK. I see LBH's with a WW rationalize why he does whatever the WW says, and I think it's more common for men with NGS who have been bullied or extremely manipulated. I don't know if he recognizes what he's doing at the time. Whenever I read a post from a LBH who is rationalizing why he gave in to whatever his WW said...... it sounds like excuses, to me. However, some guys can get offended and get defensive if they are accused of making excuses. I think you do it, in order to just tolerate living with her. Perhaps unconsciously, it gives you a way out, rather than having to deal with the bigger picture. She is a cat who loves to play with the mouse. Guess who the mouse is? Yep, and that's the bigger picture.
To use the recent posting as an example, I think most men would count it as being petty if they chose to act independent of his WW's "suggestions" (cough-cough). They would probably see the easiest way is simply go along with whatever she says do about dinner, and not make a big deal out of it. I get it. Once is okay. But how many years have you been the mouse she jerks around? "Go fix me something to eat". "No, go get me carryout". "Come by my room, first, and let me decide what I want you to order and pick up for me".
Here's the thing. This time, as well as last year, she announces the MR is over and it's IHS. However, she doesn't want to conduct it like a marriage separation. She wants you to be her buddy, whenever it suits her. If you were physically separated, would you be running around trying to accommodate her when she wants to divorce you!
I suggest you design a plan of action (you don't share with her), and right up close to the top of the list should be....No more accommodating her! She wants a separation, so conduct it as such. Why? B/c you need the space from her so that you can begin to see objectively, and become mentally/emotionally stronger.
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She also texted about several other things and wanted to have chit chat convos............................
She even “scheduled” with me to talk about work stuff when I got back because she couldn’t tell me over the phone and has a lot to say.
Seriously? She really means she wants to have a monologue while you sit there and listen to her gripe & blow off steam about her sister, her co-workers, etc. She doesn't want to hear about your feelings. Remember what I say about how selfish WW's are. This is another way she shows that selfishness. She couldn't give you compassion or moral support at the funeral, but she's telling you what you are going to do before you even get back home.....and it's all about her. My question to you is why does any if this confuse you? I see the same WW that I saw last year.
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W sent a text saying she was washing MY bedding. She also said she laid in the bed one morning.
She's messing with your head. And so far, it seems to be working.
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If there is no A, I feel much more conflicted about responding to her messages and listening to her work talk etc.
What???? So, as long as you have no proof she's doing some guy, you should keep kissing her a$$?
YOU ARE IN-HOUSE SEPARATED! SHE TREATS YOU LIKE CRAP! SHE DOESN'T RESPECT YOU! Any questions?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
LH and Sandi, I don’t know why I get so caught up on the A. I guess this is part of the rationalization. If there is an A, it is a lot easier to stop the rationalizing because I can just keep telling myself “HELLO, she’s having an A!”
To be clear, I am not conflicted about whether or not to keep kissing her a$$. Maybe the question is what constitutes a$$ kissing. Do I tell her point blank do not talk to me about work? Do I become unwilling to cooperate with her on anything? If she is hostile and manipulative like she was the night of my GAL, I am clear. But what if she is nice?
Today, I told her I would not be the one to go get food.
I think you do it, in order to just tolerate living with her. Perhaps unconsciously, it gives you a way out, rather than having to deal with the bigger picture. She is a cat who loves to play with the mouse. Guess who the mouse is? Yep, and that's the bigger picture. 
She
So, as long as you have no proof she's doing some guy, you should keep kissing her a$$?