Gerda Rises Up to Go On

[Gerda]

... once things settle down a bit this weekend, you will be able to think clearly and come to realize that if all of this should come to pass, you will finally be free of some of the financial burden you have been dealing with.

I have a question that has been on my mind for quite some time...what is the reason that your h can't work a full time job? Is it a health issue or he just doesn't want to work? If it's because he doesn't want to work, I'm surprised that the court didn't tell him to get a full time job. As for the child support, I'm absolutely shocked that the court didn't opt to have it taken from the support money that you are paying him.

Hi, Job and Grace and DnJ -- I don't want to get into all the nitty gritty of the details of my two places, but they are what enable me to work less so that I can attend to the special needs of my kids and continue one of my jobs that requires a lot of auditioning. Where we live is a very expensive city and I will not be able to avoid a full-time job if I am no longer living rent-free because what I will walk away with after debts and the massive taxes and fees are paid is not enough to buy even a two-bedroom apartment. Right now we live in a modest shabby leaky but extremely homey and bright and charming three-bedroom at the top of the place and pay the mortgage with the rentals of the two other units. The financial burden has been having a husband who won't work or give us anything or help me with anything so that we could keep the place. The rentals pay for the mortgage and my work pays for me and the kids to live (albeit simply), but they don't pay for all our debts and for the endless outlay of his rent and whatever else he is spending this money on. But if I buy him out, I am only paying out his share without having to at the same time pay so much out in taxes/fees. I can continue to pay down our debt over the next two years and then I would still have this wonderful place to live that allows me to be there so much for my kids. H even put in the custody agreement that I am not allowed to move more than five miles from here even if we sell the house!!!! Five miles in a major city is a lot, and each neighborhood is very different. I am so at home here, have lived in this neighborhood since 1995 and I love it so much and know everyone and so do my kids. But I wouldn't be able to afford it if I sell. I know that there is a freedom that will be great for me but I also know why I have been trying to work out a reasonable deal. I saw at court on Friday that, as you say, Job, he is not going to be happy until he strips me of everything. It is very strange because he was not this bad until he went for divorce. He was angry but he didn't seem so h3ll bent on destroying me.

As for your question about job and child support -- this is my question too. My L kept saying, "They can't force him to get a job," and that if we went to trial, the next judge could likely force the sale without me having the right of first refusal if I can effect a buy-out, he was saying that that was what he was getting for me. This court seems obsessed with protecting his right to the "asset" with no connection to his deadbeat ways in everything else. The current deal very literally shows that he is taking child support out of the children's home but no cares because hs payments are being put as a credit on the eventual buyout and he doesn't have to actually write a check til he gets the money. And the amount per month is a joke, it's based on a salary of 25K a year, but he will get a huge sum of money if we sell. The court does not care, their mandate is to protect the asset and they never ask about the children. My ability to keep things afloat on fumes has worked against me, they think I am hiding money and aren't willing to look at any specifics without a trial. With another judge, it would almost definitely be different. And I was ready to go to trial because I didn't think it was enough and I think that a new judge (our judge, who is known as the worst and laziest in the system and who rarely even hears the conferences, would not be hearing the case) would take into account the story and his total deadbeat behavior. The whole reason I didn't want to go to trial was because of the threat of H moving back in.

DnJ, you are right, the feelings are terrible and have not withered yet. I am swimming into the unfairness and betrayal daily. I wonder a lot about how this OW could be with someone who is that evil. No matter who you are, how could you be with someone who treated the mother of his children this way? It would be one thing if I was on the offensive and doing vicious things, but really I didn't do anything except keep standing for the marriage, taking care of the kids and yes, slowly protecting not even our finances but just his ability to sink us into further debt. Slowly he became convinced of this insane narrative about the house and income and it just exploded into this insane divorce proceeding where he became so openly evil.

Even if I said, "yes, let's sell tomorrow," so I could be done with him, he wants to play the market until June. There is no way out for me until then.

So I have to make peace with another seven months of waiting and wading through this h3ll.

All I can do is block him wherever I can but I will have to deal constantly with the drama of the broker and anything about visitation.

I am wondering now if I should fire my L. I feel like I could have gotten the same deal by myself.

Now I only want to settle what the debt total is. My L was saying they are going to try to get out of paying the marital debt, which is massive, and I just don't think he is ready to fight. It's just what is on paper, it is easy to prove, and should not be negotiable. I don't want to start over with someone else, but it's just too much money to accept anything less and almost all of it was not debt I caused, rather it was me who has all this time worked to slowly chip away at it while H did nothing. Most of that debt is from opening our last biz, and a lot is from when I was sick and couldn't work much and had to pay for everything on cc's because H wasn't functioning at the biz anymore and never thought to work an extra job because of his endless dissertation. And now I know, because of his affair consuming all him time.

I am trying not to lie in a ball but I am falling way behind in work because I am so sad. I feel like I wake up every morning as we all did after BD, thinking, "No, this can't be real." But I am trying to keep things going -- last night had friends over to carve pumpkins, today having a bunch of ladies over for a clothing swap. In between I feel like I am dying and I went back to the MLC diet. Maybe that's all we can expect in these moments, to keep going through the pain.

[job]

Gerda,

After reading your thread this week, I just have this sense that the judge and both lawyers are fed up w/their clients and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if your lawyer advises you that he can no longer represent you. As for your h's lawyer, he may very well say the same thing to him...but he gives me the impression that he is money hungry and will be there for your h no matter what, regardless of the things that your h comes up with.

As for the marital debt, it should be 50/50 since all of this debt happened while he was still living in the home and as your spouse. Whatever debt that has been incurred since he left the home is another matter...but you already are aware of that. However, the judicial system may look at his situation as: he lived in the home, did very little and you accepted him for who he was and he didn't contribute all that much when he was there, so they may look at him as a house husband and not a "money making provider", but rather someone who stayed at home and ran the household while you worked.

Gerda...at what point will you come to realize that you just may have to move from the home that you are living in? I honestly don't see any way around it and your h is h3ll bent on you selling out or buying him out, which he knows you do not have the money to do so. Have you ever thought of suggesting that you and the children remain in the home until the children graduate from high school and then sell? I do know that this particular card is played a lot in my area.

I know that you like where you are living, but there may come a time, very soon, that you will need to either come up with the funds to buy him out or move. Your situation is very a difficult one, but the reality is...someone is going to have to make a decision about this and it may come down to the judge stating what needs to be done by a certain time. Gerda, I know you want to stay where you are, but to be on the safe side, start looking around just in case. A home is where you are w/your children. Just know that no matter where you move to, it will be home to you and your kids. The court does not care about anything but settling up this case and closing it out. They figure that the children will continue to live w/you, as their mother.

Do you have any idea of the logic of him wanting to play around w/the brokers until June? That doesn't make sense unless he's hoping that you will fall even further behind in debt and then declare that you've had enough and are willing to give him everything to get rid of him.

I've mentioned before that you may have to declare bankruptcy to get out from under your debt. It's a legal strategy that many have used and there is no shame in declaring it when the debt is too high and it's taking too long to pay it off. I know that you don't want to do this...but you may have to in order to get out from under all of that debt.

Gerda, I wish I had something to offer you in the way of a solution, but your situation is very unique and both of you appear to be very set in how you see your situation. I wish that the lawyers could sit down, negotiate and come up w/something that would be acceptable to both parties. It's costing both parties lots of money, time, energy and patience.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

Exhausted Gerda is in shock at the state of this world. No fault divorce allows all of this to happen. My story was never told, no one cared about the kids once custody was set, all they cared about was dividing the assets.

I live in a province with no fault divorce legislation, much like your state has. So, I do understand your feelings. Yes, the courts are not concerned about what he or you did - there is no fault so it is irrelevant. The only things to settle were custody and money. It starts at 50/50 and negotiates from there.

It does seem evil. And yet there is wisdom in this approach as well. These laws were not created out of rashness and maliciousness. It did take me some time for me to realize the societal value from such an approach. Cold and efficient - to those of us right next to the fires of this horribleness. Just what is needed to find a resolution between to warring parties. I hope you come to see that as well some day. You deserve peace from such a long struggle.

My L kept saying, "They can't force him to get a job," and that if we went to trial, the next judge could likely force the sale without me having the right of first refusal if I can effect a buy-out, he was saying that that was what he was getting for me. This court seems obsessed with protecting his right to the "asset" with no connection to his deadbeat ways in everything else. The current deal very literally shows that he is taking child support out of the children's home but no cares because hs payments are being put as a credit on the eventual buyout and he doesn't have to actually write a check til he gets the money. And the amount per month is a joke, it's based on a salary of 25K a year, but he will get a huge sum of money if we sell. The court does not care, their mandate is to protect the asset and they never ask about the children. My ability to keep things afloat on fumes has worked against me, they think I am hiding money and aren't willing to look at any specifics without a trial. With another judge, it would almost definitely be different. And I was ready to go to trial because I didn't think it was enough and I think that a new judge (our judge, who is known as the worst and laziest in the system and who rarely even hears the conferences, would not be hearing the case) would take into account the story and his total deadbeat behavior. The whole reason I didn't want to go to trial was because of the threat of H moving back in.

Yep. Division of assets. Remember just business.

It seems cold and heartless. However, these are real people, doing really hard jobs, within the framework of our laws. I’m sure more than a few go home and feel bad at some of what they see and deal with.

One can fight against it. Punch the wall, and get bloodied knuckles. Or find acceptance of the unchangeable, and find their strength for what they can control and change.

D10 has been asking me so many questions and talking about H and OW and reporting all these inappropriate things they said/did (and also told me H gives her wine to drink when she is with him) and then my son found out about OW and we had to talk about it all together for a while

You, D10, and S15 talking is great. They have lots of questions and are asking you for guidance. Asking their Mom.

Accept the unchangeable, and focus on what you can change/control/influence.

D10 and H giving her wine. First off I agree it is not the best thing for him to do. There is also a lot of assumptions of frequency, amount of wine, and so on - worst case ideas spring to mind usually pretty quickly. Breathe.

You cannot control what he does when he has care of his children. And a little wine is not child abuse. Not in a legally “not allowed to see his children” kind of way. Morally - different discussion. However, both are beyond your control. H is going to do what H is going to do. Uncontrollable and unchangeable.

What you can control and change - talk to D10. This is the best place to affect change, in this situation. Show her the wisdom of her not drinking the wine. “Thank you Dad, but no wine for me.”

That is best. D10 get control of her life, and her choices. Yes she is young, and she can handle it. Her learning that she can say no to alcohol will have huge benefit in many aspect of her life. This is another example of how us, the sane stable parent leads by example. You cannot fight H, an MLCer, head on - bloodied knuckles. You can outthink and outflank him. Good and moral will defeat evil or irrational. Have faith and strength to do it.

I am wondering now if I should fire my L. I feel like I could have gotten the same deal by myself.

NO! Do not fire your lawyer.

Please do not take on all this upon your shoulders. I empathize with your feelings - I could have got the same thing myself. Maybe. Maybe not. I think H and the courts would have destroyed you without a L. Regardless, you Gerda, do not need that pressure - leave it to your lawyer.

I wonder a lot about how this OW could be with someone who is that evil. No matter who you are, how could you be with someone who treated the mother of his children this way? It would be one thing if I was on the offensive and doing vicious things

The affair partner is also emotional broken, they have to be. Two emotional broken, self centered, hurt, desperate people trying to be a couple.

How he is treating the mother of his children, says a lot about him. And OW willingly being with H, says lots about her. Being treated offensively or viciously is a poor defence when defining “one’s” own character. So even if you were treating him badly H would still have a very shaky leg to stand on.

To turn that around a bit. My children’s mother, XW, for example. Her treatment of me and her kids, is no excuse for me to treat her, or anyone else, poorly. That says something about me. I think you have similar views.

It helps to not think, and reinforce your belief of H being evil. He really isn’t evil, he is just acting like it due to irrational pressures he cannot fathom. Empathy and compassion. What do want your actions to say about you.

Seven months, and things will settle further then and along the way. You are already defining the scope of the task you face. It has edges, a boundary, is definable, and is solvable.

I know it's crazy and a total regression! I need LBS love and a hand out of this pit!

I can't believe I have been on this journey for so long and this is such a setback for me, as if I am starting over.

This will undoubtedly cause some further clarity of past events. When explaining to our kids, our minds listen as well, and things move around and eventually click into place. This at first feels like a setback, and I’d like to assure you it is a step forward.

DnJ

I am sure we all have to go to work and I have to go back to court again this morning! but you are going to have to come back and explain that one!

I’m happy to explain.

Look at where you are - right now compared to days ago.

Days ago: Felt like crazy and total regression, stuck in the pit. Like I said, feels like a setback - it is not.

You are moving forward, this barrier, this “setback” was always in front of you. It was something you had to face and overcome and accept. You needed to look at old feelings and sort them out. This only feels like going backwards.

Look where you are - right now. Emotions have stirred, settled, things moved around, and something clicked. You clicked. You are important - most important. That is forward. You have made a huge step forward, even if it feels otherwise at the moment. This is counterintuitive until you live through it.

It seems that way too often, evil wins here on this earth.

I wanted to expand on what Grace said. Please forgive me Grace, your words inspired and I believe this is still within your intended spirit.

It does seem like evil wins far too often. It is a dark, toxic, force that slips its way into things. It’s outcomes are usually sensational or sensationalized by stories or media. We see it everywhere, and see little in the way of it failing. Its influence is pervasive and its power seemingly unstoppable. All that is a facade. Dark cannot survive the light.

Good can always triumph. Start here, look at all the people gathered, helping one another, healing, sharing, encouraging, providing hope and strength. Shinning their light and pushing back the dark.

Good happens everywhere, and goes unnoticed most of the time. The countless little things a loving parent does for their children. The helpful coworker, the nice stranger that hold the door, a pleasant greeting, a kind word, a sincere smile. Goodness happens, and does silently take hold and gain purchase within people’s hearts. Its spread is wide and affect even the most unkindly of people.

Good and evil exist. Neither survive without the other. Each is a choice and belief. When one really looks around one sees far more good than evil. But it does appear differently. Evil lies and attempts to loom larger than it really is. Good patiently journeys on, strong and secure in the knowledge that when someone takes good into their heart, really takes it in, that light will forever change them. Evil cannot compete against that kind of power.

I am trying not to lie in a ball but I am falling way behind in work because I am so sad. I feel like I wake up every morning as we all did after BD, thinking, "No, this can't be real." But I am trying to keep things going -- last night had friends over to carve pumpkins, today having a bunch of ladies over for a clothing swap. In between I feel like I am dying and I went back to the MLC diet. Maybe that's all we can expect in these moments, to keep going through the pain.

Gerda, you did everything you could do. H made his choices, did the heavy lifting, and to some extent forced your hand.

You gave ample time and space, and H needs more. He has much inner work to do, and demons to stop feeding and learn to accept. He is on his path and he is lost.

Now, you regroup, focus on you and your kids. Acknowledge your feelings; I didn’t want to end up separated/divorced either, it takes time to accept this.

Keep things going (no trying - doing ). Carve pumpkins, have friends over, live, and get to the other side of all this pain.

And laugh, it really does your soul some good. Here I’ll help - I am thinking that I should have a bunch of ladies over for a “clothing swap”. See when I say something like that, maybe a bulletin at the post office - “Looking for ladies to have clothing swap with. Tonight around 9:00 pm at DnJ’s house.” - I get in big trouble.

bunch of ladies over for a clothing swap

Now, I can’t get it out of my mind. Lol.

Take care my friend.

DnJ

[job]

I did have one more thought about your situation as I was driving home from my mother's. You have tenants in your home that in a way are paying the mortgage on your home as they are renters. You have to remember...the courts do not look at that situation the same way that you do. They are looking at the rent being paid to you as additional income and your h and the lawyers may be looking at it the same way as well.

When I was going through my negotiations, I finally had to ask my lawyer: "Who are you working for...my husband or me? It appears to me that you should be working for me since I'm the one writing the checks to you. Now, get cracking on my case and let's get this mess moving." Once he realized that I could see that he was being passive and just playing around ramping up the billable hours, he soon got to work. He found out that he didn't have some sniffling biddy sitting in his office, but someone who knew what was up and wasn't playing games. Sometimes, you have to get tough w/the lawyers who are suppose to be representing you and maybe it's time to get tougher w/yours.

Gerda, please take care of yourself and your children. Leave all of the heavy lifting to your lawyer and yes, get tougher w/him. After all you are paying him to represent you.

[Gerda]

Job, though I have been unable to post, I really appreciated all your posts, as always, and did take what you said into account. I tried to get tougher with my lawyer. He insists that he was being pragmatic with knowing what is possible. Now I am pushing him to settle on the total debt and a few other things and he is dragging his feet. I am not sure if I should try to find someone else but I am just getting so tired!

DnJ, you did make me laugh with the swap. And I read all that you said and chewed on it. What you said about good and evil especially. I would like to thank you with another Citizen Cope song -- Healing Hands. But about what you said about good and evil -- I know that this is what I have always felt, from the days reading The Chronicles of prydain and those of Narnia, and just knowing so clearly that we have to be that light in the darkness and do battle -- and I identified my stand as my stand against evil. Now I am trying to redefine how to do that to some degree. I am not allowed to stand anymore in the same way. I don't understand it very well anymore.

I am reading a book about surviving narcissistic abuse -- MLC or not, my H's particular brand is clearly NPD for the interim, if he ever wakes up -- and the thing I like about the book is that the writer, a survivor, talks a lot about cell memory and how the body takes on the trauma. And that the trauma came from long ago, you sought a partner who would feed your addiction to it. So that no matter how much therapy and prayer, etc., you do, your body continues to react and you are in this PTSD state of terror half the time, even if the rest of your life seems to get better and better. Until you heal body and mind, you can't stop that addiction -- which includes a dependence on the outcome of MLC healing me instead of just healing either way. This articulates exactly what my experience is. My mother was mentally ill and had an MLC to boot. I was always looking for a man who wasn't like my father, and to be a wife completely different from the type of wife my mother was. But I realized about three years ago that I had married my mother! Their MLC was so similar! The financial irresponsibility identical. Even the script -- e.g., "You've been doing this to me for twenty years." She said that to my dad but after he was gone she would say it to me! I remember saying to her, "But, Mom, I am only fifteen."

Anyway a lot of times, you, my dear friends, try to 2x4 me or even just 1x4 me, and tell me to let go, stop focusing on OW or all those other standbys we all need to hear, and I write back some long boring explanation about how I think I did that but there is something else. And I guess I finally figured out that it's this deep visceral thing -- my body not aligning with my mind.

And today is one of those days. D was with H yesterday and overnight, and I found a little peace in all of it, was working and even doing some writing and feeling great but I always have to steel myself not only for what my body will do when she is with him -- my terror that I am giving her into that craziness for a whole night -- but for her return, when she will go on and on about the OW.

I get confused about what you all encouraged me to do, telling her the truth -- I think I say too much when she brings OW up. The pain is so terrible, I just try to be silent when she is talking or to look like I am listening, but my whole body is hurting, I feel like I am taking a shower in pain. Today she told me how Papa texts OW all the time and tell her loves her, etc. My mind knows that this is the reality now, and that it's not me, and that probably this R will crash and burn one day, but my body is thinking DANGER DANGER and the pain is literally in my limbs and my stomach and my arms and my heart -- it is the old pain, from a long long time ago. I feel like I am sending D out into a darkness, and then when she returns, she pulls me into it too. I am afraid that D even senses something about me, that I almost feel mad at her for telling me.

DnJ, these are feelings only, they are not TRUE, I know this. But I have to do something with them when it's happening or D will see what I feel and internalize it. I am sure I have already damaged her in this way.

What I wish is that there was a way to cut out all knowing, that D would never be a conduit for information. Every time I start to heal and to enjoy my life, I have to re-encounter what they are doing through D and any little bits of scab that have started on that wound just get ripped off.

The rest of the time, I focus on me and my kids, I build my life, all of those things we all know we must do and which allow for joy in our lives. But I need to find a way to deal with the Wednesday and every other weekend encounters without it destroying me. It can't just be a 2x4. I am one of the toughest women I know in every other regard, but this slays me every time.

[DnJ]

Hello Gerda

I am glad you appreciated the “good and evil”.

what you said about good and evil -- I know that this is what I have always felt, from the days reading The Chronicles of prydain and those of Narnia, and just knowing so clearly that we have to be that light in the darkness and do battle -- and I identified my stand as my stand against evil. Now I am trying to redefine how to do that to some degree. I am not allowed to stand anymore in the same way. I don't understand it very well anymore.

I was going to ask you why you aren’t “allowed” to stand anymore in the same way. I am guessing you mean because of the divorce.

A couple of things from me to you. My heart to your’s. (Oh my, I do write like it’s just you and me talking. Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound.)

knowing so clearly that we have to be that light in the darkness and do battle

Who or what are you battling? What darkness is your light pushing back?

The battle is within you. That’s the battlefield. Your light and your darkness.

Standing starts as a stand for marriage, relationship, H and then evolves into standing for yourself. Yes, your stand is not the same way anymore - it is now stronger and for you. Find your light and beliefs, lead with them, and stand for them.

Stand until you’re healed enough to stand down. You will know when - life will be peaceful, gentle, and happy. Then you can make proper choices; there is no need to worry about or rush to this.

Anyway a lot of times, you, my dear friends, try to 2x4 me or even just 1x4 me, and tell me to let go, stop focusing on OW or all those other standbys we all need to hear, and I write back some long boring explanation about how I think I did that but there is something else. And I guess I finally figured out that it's this deep visceral thing -- my body not aligning with my mind.

Long boring explanation - nah, its all good.

My take on the misalignment stuff I saw as cars - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual - all travel their own lanes along the same highway, and all need to get lined up so none are too far behind or ahead. A good balanced life.

D was with H yesterday and overnight, and I found a little peace in all of it, was working and even doing some writing and feeling great

I found this bit of gold. A great realization of possibilities, of life. It was a bit hidden in your post. Focus on the better not bitter.

I get confused about what you all encouraged me to do, telling her the truth -- I think I say too much when she brings OW up. The pain is so terrible, I just try to be silent when she is talking or to look like I am listening, but my whole body is hurting, I feel like I am taking a shower in pain.

Intellectual car my friend. Detachment from H and his life. Emotions and pain cannot and do not exist in the realm of intellect.

You are a smart strong woman, stay focused when D is telling you about H and OW. Listen, validate, and speak with reason and intellect. Later after D and you talk, you can, and need to, emotionally feel all this and work towards accepting it.

My mind knows that this is the reality now, and that it's not me, and that probably this R will crash and burn one day, but my body is thinking DANGER DANGER and the pain is literally in my limbs and my stomach and my arms and my heart -- it is the old pain, from a long long time ago.

You clearly state the “cars” and where they respectively are. Your mind knows. Your heart (subconscious) is getting there. The physical pain is caused from a hurting psyche; it manifests as actual pain. During my tormented days my entire chest - neck to belly and completely through from front to back - hurt nonstop. It was relentless. It was irrational. It was “almost” too much (thank you God). And it passed.

I feel like I am sending D out into a darkness, and then when she returns, she pulls me into it too. I am afraid that D even senses something about me, that I almost feel mad at her for telling me.

I was mad at my wonderful kids also when they went to see their Mom. Mad because Mom still (sort of) wanted to see them. You’re right an almost mad feeling or upset. And when XW didn’t want to see her kids, I felt relief and kind of happy. It was validation that this isn’t about me.

It was all driven by fear. And something I had to find forgiveness for - to forgive myself. What kind of Dad gets mad from their kids seeing their Mom, or happy when those kids get thrown away from their Mom. A scared and hurting one.

The battlefield is ourselves. Good and evil. Light and dark.

Good and evil exist. Neither survive without the other. Each is a choice and belief. When one really looks around one sees far more good than evil. But it does appear differently. Evil lies and attempts to loom larger than it really is. Good patiently journeys on, strong and secure in the knowledge that when someone takes good into their heart, really takes it in, that light will forever change them. Evil cannot compete against that kind of power.

DnJ, these are feelings only, they are not TRUE, I know this. But I have to do something with them when it's happening or D will see what I feel and internalize it. I am sure I have already damaged her in this way.

Gerda, feelings are true and need to be acknowledged. Thoughts are also true. As well as beliefs.

True and false become confused when our cars are at different spots on the path. One’s views of things depends from where they are looking.

You know feeling are not “true”. Feelings will flit and fade. Do they become false or just non-applicable?

As I said a lot is driven by fear. I’ve written quite a bit on letting go of fear. The rationalizing of, and uncoupling of possible future events.

One possibility that feed my fear and my feelings of mad towards my kids - the thought feeling that D15 (at the time) would want to live with her Mom. Thoughts rationalized what and why I was afraid. Sword and shield, I stopped feeding it.

As for “I am sure I have already damaged her in this way“. There are two possibilities:

First, lets say you have. It’s in the past, and you cannot change that. Move forward letting go of fear and not feeding those emotions. Listen and talk with daughter and continue being a great Mom.

Second, and more probable. You haven’t damaged her. Keep moving forward letting go of fear and not feeding those emotions. Listen and talk with daughter and continue being a great Mom.

The rest of the time, I focus on me and my kids, I build my life, all of those things we all know we must do and which allow for joy in our lives. But I need to find a way to deal with the Wednesday and every other weekend encounters without it destroying me. It can't just be a 2x4. I am one of the toughest women I know in every other regard, but this slays me every time.

It takes time to alter the irrational part of ourselves; feelings, emotions, and beliefs.

I do tend to encourage a far bit, even with some practical advice and things to do.

So, Wednesday and every other weekend is H’s time. Does son and daughter go, or just daughter? What are the times for Wednesday? 8:00am to 8:00am? How about the weekend? Friday 8:00am to Sunday 8:00pm?

I am sincerely interested, and this rationalizes your situation. In case you were wondering; I’m not just prying at something painful for no reason. (((Gerda)))

One way to deal with the custody days. Look forward to those Wednesday nights. You know, that golden realization of yourself that I highlighted. Enjoy it. Enjoy your Gerda time. Write, read, watch a movie, post to me. (Oh ya, other people reading along. Lol)

Work towards not steeling yourself to the return and discussions from daughter and son. Look forward to those times. See them for what they are - you being a great and sane Mom helping her children grow and creating a fantastic long lasting relationship between Mom and child.

I get how it slays you, really I do. It will pass.

Time is a wonderful companion walking beside us. Let it work it’s effect upon you.

Compassion, empathy, understanding, and forgiveness.

Light.

DnJ

[Gerda]

I was going to ask you why you aren’t “allowed” to stand anymore in the same way. I am guessing you mean because of the divorce....

The battle is within you. That’s the battlefield. Your light and your darkness.

Who or what are you battling? What darkness is your light pushing back?DnJ

It's not the fact of the divorce. It's the way of it. H is destroying me and the kids in a way he didn't do before. And exposing them (or at least D10, more directly) to the adultery in a way he was ashamed of before. I did ask him to take time away several times over the last six years but he wouldn't go -- and I even found a letter from him from before he filed where he said he would be able to love me and the kids once he had the money from his half of the house and wasn't under my control anymore. Part of the reason I did not push him out was so that the kids could continue to have their dad but I would be able to keep them safe from his many poor parenting issues. Now none of that is in play, he is literally siphoning out everything I have emotionally, physically, financially, etc. He is abusive and undertakes many evil acts and has enlisted the most evil man I ever met in his L, allowing that L to even threaten me physically. I obviously could not take him back like this for my own health and safety, and I have to push harder to cut him out of my life for the same reason.

But inside me I still can't believe that the man I knew will never come back. I somehow feel guilty for not believing in him anymore. And part of me still does believe in him and think that the best thing for my kids and their kids and their kids and on and on is for us to be grandparents together. The worldly part of me is reading these books about abusers and talking to too many people and thinking, Wow, I really had no self worth and I need to fix this wound and never let him back.

I agree that there is a battle within me. But I am not talking about that one. I think I am a little more clear on that one.

I am literally talking about battling the devil. I believe in that in a literal way, that my family is under attack by an actual force of evil.

The darkness in me I am battling too. But my stand was against the devil's attack on my husband and family.

A couple of things from me to you. My heart to your’s. (Oh my, I do write like it’s just you and me talking. Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound.) DnJ

I had to look up penny in, etc. Your unmodern ways remind me of Atticus Finch or George Bailey sometimes. A compliment. But yes, it seems like most of my DB friends do not visit my thread anymore, and the conversation keeps being between us much of the time. Hopefully it will help all the hordes of miserable LBS's out there to slog through our dialogue now and in days to come.

Stand until you’re healed enough to stand down. You will know when - life will be peaceful, gentle, and happy. Then you can make proper choices; there is no need to worry about or rush to this. ...... The physical pain is caused from a hurting psyche; it manifests as actual pain. During my tormented days my entire chest - neck to belly and completely through from front to back - hurt nonstop. It was relentless. It was irrational. It was “almost” too much (thank you God). And it passed.DnJ

RUSH?! I am on year seven! When the heck fire is it going to pass?!!! H started over after seeming to be trying to return. But do you mean that I am not supposed to decide about standing until I feel peace and healing? I kind of understand that idea and sometimes I accept it. But I feel like I keep regressing as far as the pain.

]Intellectual car my friend. Detachment from H and his life. Emotions and pain cannot and do not exist in the realm of intellect. You are a smart strong woman, stay focused when D is telling you about H and OW. Listen, validate, and speak with reason and intellect. Later after D and you talk, you can, and need to, emotionally feel all this and work towards accepting it.DnJ

DnJ, I do think my D is in danger. I am happy S doesn't see him and avoids that danger. I know the danger very well. My mom was the same. I can say without reservation that the damage from that has damaged me for life. I can heal, I am happy about my path to God, I love my children, I like myself sometimes. But definitely I wasted many many years of my life riding that damage. I knew it before but thought I had healed. Now that I look back on the last twenty years, the intimacy issues with H and the financial lack of responsibility he really always had, I am only seeing clearly now that many of my choices came out of that pain. I see my D10 responding to H in exactly the same way as I responded to my mom -- that anxiety of making him angry, that worry all the time about his feelings even as she says he is crazy, the obsession with what he is doing and how to fix it.... She comes back from time with him a different person and it takes a while to get her back down to earth.

I was mad at my wonderful kids also when they went to see their Mom. Mad because Mom still (sort of) wanted to see them. You’re right an almost mad feeling or upset. And when XW didn’t want to see her kids, I felt relief and kind of happy. It was validation that this isn’t about me.

It was all driven by fear. And something I had to find forgiveness for - to forgive myself. What kind of Dad gets mad from their kids seeing their Mom, or happy when those kids get thrown away from their Mom. A scared and hurting one.

I am glad to hear this from you. I like to see that you are human and not just pure enlightenment. Your response and mine on that front are exactly the same, except that I am not sure it is wrong to want to keep them away from someone who is dangerous to them emotionally. Your kids are older and not obligated to stay over at her house. It's the sleepovers really that terrify me. Seeing H for the day or an afternoon, that does not scare me. It's the household, the home aspect that scares me. Does that make sense?

And also that I want them to be very clear that he is crazy and that they do not have to trust his words or placate him. If they don't know that, I fear they will be just like I was, attracted to that kind of person as a mate. I know you will say that is fear, but it is also science. It is a very common trajectory.

One possibility that feed my fear and my feelings of mad towards my kids - the thought feeling that D15 (at the time) would want to live with her Mom. Thoughts rationalized what and why I was afraid. Sword and shield, I stopped feeding it.

Yeah, but she didn't do it. She stayed with you, where she is more than safe. She doesn't even really see her mom. So how do you know it was sword and shield? You never really had to face it becoming real. I have had to face it and my fears are realized. I have to make peace with something different than you did and I am not sure how.

As for “I am sure I have already damaged her in this way“. There are two possibilities:

First, lets say you have. It’s in the past, and you cannot change that. Move forward letting go of fear and not feeding those emotions. Listen and talk with daughter and continue being a great Mom.

Second, and more probable. You haven’t damaged her. Keep moving forward letting go of fear and not feeding those emotions. Listen and talk with daughter and continue being a great Mom.

OK, this one you have really laid out for me as a script without any interpretation needed or without an opening for Gerda's arguments. So I think I can do that one.

So, Wednesday and every other weekend is H’s time. Does son and daughter go, or just daughter? What are the times for Wednesday? 8:00am to 8:00am? How about the weekend? Friday 8:00am to Sunday 8:00pm?

I am sincerely interested, and this rationalizes your situation. In case you were wondering; I’m not just prying at something painful for no reason. (((Gerda)))

Pry away! I am lonely and self-obsessed these days and quite happy if someone wants me to tell more about me or to offer me a virtual hug! Though I did have a horrifying situation this weekend when a dad from D's school offered to help me patch my roof and then started hitting on me while we were up there on the 45 degree angle. It was so gross! He told me he wanted payment in the form of a hug, that he was getting a divorce, that I looked hot patching the roof, etc., and I could't even move because I could fall off the roof!!! Finally told him I would hug him after and then I ran down the stairs to the street so it would only happen on the street where I wouldn't be alone with him and my neighbor would hopefully walk by. And he said he couldn't hug me in public as he didn't want people to see doing that! I said, "If you can't hug me on the street then you shouldn't be hugging me at all. Go restore your marriage!" It was actually a funny story once it was over but gross. But I digress.

The actual time is Wed the weeks he had her on the weekend and Tues and Thurs the weeks he didn't. First and third weekends, Fri pick up from school til Sunday night. And a bunch of vacation complexities. But he NEVER has taken the full time, and constantly asks me what the schedule is, cancels part of it, makes arrangements with D separately and then I have to undo it, etc. I am happy about this. I kept telling him the schedule was just Wednesdays and he has never tried to take the other afternoons. And I kept telling him she had a sleepover even when she didn't so that she wouldn't' go to him for more than a night because she doesn't want to. And he always shaves away at the weekend time that he does have. He even openly will tell her he is spending part of that time with OW instead.

One way to deal with the custody days. Look forward to those Wednesday nights. You know, that golden realization of yourself that I highlighted. Enjoy it. Enjoy your Gerda time. Write, read, watch a movie, post to me. (Oh ya, other people reading along. Lol)

I do. But it's a battle. And I really do feel that I am putting D in harm's way, no matter what you say. So I can't look forward to them but maybe I can --

See them as you being a great and sane Mom helping her children grow and creating a fantastic long lasting relationship between Mom and child.

I get how it slays you, really I do. It will pass.

WHEN?!?!!!!?!?!?!??!?

Time is a wonderful companion walking beside us.

Suck eggs. No. I am tired of how long this is taking.

Compassion, empathy, understanding, and forgiveness.

Yours is good. Mine is on strike. I joke. Sort of.

HEY I HAVE TO GO TO WORK!!!!!

[DnJ]

Hello Gerda

Thank you for explaining what you meant about standing, divorce, and how it is with H behaving in such an evil manner. H is sure on a destructive path.

do you mean that I am not supposed to decide about standing until I feel peace and healing? I kind of understand that idea and sometimes I accept it. But I feel like I keep regressing as far as the pain.

I don’t know about “supposed to”. It’s more of a suggestion. You’re a grown woman, and can do what ever you want.

BUT, yes. You are supposed to make those kind of decisions from a place of peace and healing.

I am glad to hear this from you. I like to see that you are human and not just pure enlightenment.

Lol. Ya, I’m human.

I figured you’d appreciate my telling of that.

It's the sleepovers really that terrify me. Seeing H for the day or an afternoon, that does not scare me. It's the household, the home aspect that scares me. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense.

A visit is short. A sleepover, that home aspect, normalizes it somehow.

What is it that terrifies you? D sleeping over isn’t it. Rationally, she is asleep. What possible future outcome(s) is this triggering?

And also that I want them to be very clear that he is crazy and that they do not have to trust his words or placate him. If they don't know that, I fear they will be just like I was, attracted to that kind of person as a mate. I know you will say that is fear, but it is also science. It is a very common trajectory.

It’s both. Yes, they can be attracted to that kind of person as a mate. And you are fearful of that.

Altering the trajectory of that is possible. I think you’d agree, one would have better results when clearheaded and not ruled by fear.

I agree with kids seeing the actual picture, in their case how their Dad is behaving. I would use the word irrational - not the word crazy - when discussing him. Remember he makes up 50% of them; they know that. Kids already wonder about the genetic disposition of this, and whether they can escape a similar fate. Crazy vs irrational, be accurate.

Yeah, but she didn't do it. She stayed with you, where she is more than safe. She doesn't even really see her mom. So how do you know it was sword and shield? You never really had to face it becoming real. I have had to face it and my fears are realized. I have to make peace with something different than you did and I am not sure how.

True. My daughter didn’t have to, didn’t choose to, and never even got the choice - she was tossed aside.

I never had to face it becoming real. That is the very place fear lives - in the not yet real possibilities. Once something happens there is no more possible future event - it’s here. Fear goes away, and concerns and other worries come up.

My fear was that daughter would want to live with Mom. She couldn’t, but that doesn’t stop fear. Fear is irrational and doesn’t make rational sense. You are looking at my fear through your rational lens.

How do I know it was sword and shield? I had to face my fear, without it ever becoming real. Face that I was scared of D wanting Mom more than me, something pretty common and standard in families - Mother’s Day is huge compared to Father’s Day. Had to face the resentment of D blaming me, wishing for different, wanting a Mom, not measuring up to Mom (which I do fall short of, she was an amazing Mother), and so on. All things possible - In My Mind. And quite irrational.

Mental assertiveness to rationalize the underlining fears triggered by thoughts and feelings of D wanting to be with Mom. Fears are rooted within ourselves. Triggered by external events perhaps, but the source is within us.

Fear is an amazing thing. I feared separation / divorce right until it happened (the real fear of course was abandonment). At that point it became a problem, something real which I could work through and solve.

If you can't hug me on the street then you shouldn't be hugging me at all. Go restore your marriage!

Hahaha. Good for you.

Hitting on you while roofing.

I do. But it's a battle. And I really do feel that I am putting D in harm's way, no matter what you say. So I can't look forward to them but maybe I can --

No matter what I say? Hmmmm. Sounds like a challenge. Just kidding.

No, you are quite correct. You feel how you feel. And you will continue feeling how you feeling until you change it. Whatever I say may influence you, but you control you. No one can make someone feel something directly.

“ So I can't won’t look forward to them but maybe I can --“. Can’t / won’t. One has possibilities and choice, one doesn’t. Your mind is listening.

Suck eggs. No. I am tired of how long this is taking.

Haha.

Suck eggs. Still makes me laugh. And think of coffee with sugar and heavy cream.

Have a great day.

DnJ

[Gerda]

DnJ, this is not my reply to you yet. I have to take time just for that.

Today I just wanted some empathy from All Those Who Know about my kids --

Last night D10 cried and cried and cried. She started by telling me that she doesn't sleep well when she goes to H's house. Then she cried and cried about how she just wants him to come back. Then about what a terrible person he is. Then a long one about OW -- apparently H told her on Wed that OW was buying scrunchies for her daughters and thought of D10. D10 cried and cried to me, "I don't want her to think of me! I don't want to be in her mind! I don't ever want to see her or know her!"

I channeled DnJ and Gordie as best as I could. I wanted to throw up and cry and scream, "No, Lord, no!" to God himself. But I listened and tried not to offer too much by way of solutions except to tell her that she was learning so much to know what she thought and felt and that she could set limits and stand up for herself. She could tell her dad that she doesn't want to have OW around at their times together, etc or even say the truth about her feelings about her, even if H didn't respond the way she wanted. I told her about myself as a teen with an MLC mom and my stony approach to the stream of boyfriends my mother had at our house. I told her that she could call me even at 3 in the morning if she wanted to come home from H's house, and I would come no matter what.

Then we went upstairs and S14 wanted to know what was going on, and so we told him about it and he listened and asked a lot of questions -- e.g., "Is H going to live with them and be with her kids?"

Later when they were sleeping I stood over their beds and prayed for them to feel the comfort and peace of God and to just find the courage and strength they needed to get through this terrible ordeal and still thrive and have joy in their lives.

Then this morning S refused to go to school. He has refused to go five times in the last two weeks, and I had to go to a meeting at his school just yesterday. It is a special school for kids like him, so they are not going to kick him out, but it's so stressful!!!! But anyway today it was about not being able to put in his contact lens and he was screaming with rage, etc., and then finally admitted that he was really upset about the OW and about his dad. He kept asking about H loving the other woman's kids or being with them on Thanksgiving and also he kept saying that it just bothered him so much that H didn't know he had done something wrong. S14 has not seen or spoken to H since May. We talked about mental illness and I explained how helpful for my own emotional health it has been to block H from my e-mail because H sends S14 some really over the top texts and is constantly trying to get D10 to pass messages to S14 or get S14 to come with them, etc. But S14 said he wants to keep him on text because he wants to write him some mean replies. I said that he should write them and then burn or delete them because it would probably just get a more painful exchange going. I said all his feelings were the right ones, because this situation was awful, and it would be weird if it didn't make him feel awful. And then we talked about not letting this ruin our lives, and figuring out our own joy and our own path, etc. But he still wouldn't go to school.

LORD THIS IS PAINFUL. I would love to hear from all my DB friends right about now.

I had been feeling pretty good about some of my mothering lately -- I was going to tell you that I always was thinking that S14 really missed the roughhousing that a man does with his kid, and so recently I started roughhousing with him like crazy and he loves it, we are both laughing the whole time. I honestly don't love that, I am not a roughhouse type and am very small while S is getting very big and manly; but I just go with it for S and it has been a great connector for us.

But wow the last 24 hours was tough.

DnJ, I think D10 is ready for your letter; and S14 could use a refresher.

More later on the rest of what you wrote.

Hugs to all from A Shaky Gerda.

[OwnIt]

Gerda,

My S had a day not long ago of sitting in my room crying and saying he just wanted him to come back. But most of the time he doesn't mention him at all or seem to care one way or another. Not the greatest answer, but always the right one--time. It does get better with time.