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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by IronWill
Agreed. I would also note that the LBS usually has a tendency to over-exaggerate the faults that were shown to them during the BD - because they were delivered during a highly emotional, sensitive, and stressful time. It takes lots of distance and the ability to change perspective outside of oneself for the LBS to understand that, while there were problems in the MR, it is not solely the LBS that caused the MR distress.

Yes, it is the responsibility of every LBS to change for the better for themselves. But the WAS has just as much responsibility to own up to their own side of the issues, once they come out of their crisis/fog/call it what you will. If they do not, whether it be through Recon or a new R, they will end up kicking the can down the road and have the same thing happen again and again.

This ^^^^^

Limbo cannot be about the LBS feeling guilty and horrible and 100% to blame. I spent over a year obsessing over my issues and contributions to our MR failures. When I spent some time 2 months ago thinking about my W's issues, and what I would like to see her work on, and my conditions for a reconciliation, I felt so much better. It helps me stay true to my own values, and not get sucked into feeling guilty and down about myself.


To be clear. I'm not suggesting the LBS at 100% fault. But I am suggesting that if you want the WAS to accommodate your timeline you will never get anywhere- if you reconcile or don't reconcile it doesn't matter. You can't expect a tit-for-tat that the WAS will own up to their issues. (i'm not suggesting this is you unchien) And it's totally natural that you'd expect the WAS to work on her stuff as well. I don't think you could have a true reconciliation without it - to be frank.

But I am saying it might be much longer than you or any LBS wants

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Limbo cannot be about the LBS feeling guilty and horrible and 100% to blame. I spent over a year obsessing over my issues and contributions to our MR failures. When I spent some time 2 months ago thinking about my W's issues, and what I would like to see her work on, and my conditions for a reconciliation, I felt so much better. It helps me stay true to my own values, and not get sucked into feeling guilty and down about myself.


Guilt is overrated, feeling horrible keeps you stuck, and none of us here are 100% to blame. I'm still where you are where I feel better focusing (at times) on what WAH did than myself. It's called "blame shifting" for a reason. Consider this you allowed your W to treat you this way. She has her issues as my WAH does but we allowed the behavior to continue. We gave them permission to treat us less than regardless of who started it.

If we both focus on what we can control that is power. Should I get the gift of reconciling I will have a choice of deciding whether or not he's all in or not. Whether I stay and fight or whether I leave. I decide not him.

I'm not there yet by all means but this is where I'm aiming for but first I have to get to the part where I don't need him anymore. This part stinks.

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I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but I just want to note that it will take a lot more time than you think. A lot.

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Originally Posted by Many worries

To be clear. I'm not suggesting the LBS at 100% fault. But I am suggesting that if you want the WAS to accommodate your timeline you will never get anywhere- if you reconcile or don't reconcile it doesn't matter. You can't expect a tit-for-tat that the WAS will own up to their issues. (i'm not suggesting this is you unchien) And it's totally natural that you'd expect the WAS to work on her stuff as well. I don't think you could have a true reconciliation without it - to be frank.

But I am saying it might be much longer than you or any LBS wants

Agreed. I have no expectation on a timeline. I recognize it's asking a lot to say "W, I expect you to get over your resentment, projection and mind-reading since I'm sitting here waiting to work on our MR". Also I did contribute to this MR erosion including not working together with her as a healthy couple. So now she is fairly entrenched in her beliefs and it just is what it is. It will take a long time (if ever) to resolve.

Originally Posted by kas99

Guilt is overrated, feeling horrible keeps you stuck, and none of us here are 100% to blame. I'm still where you are where I feel better focusing (at times) on what WAH did than myself. It's called "blame shifting" for a reason. Consider this you allowed your W to treat you this way. She has her issues as my WAH does but we allowed the behavior to continue. We gave them permission to treat us less than regardless of who started it.

If we both focus on what we can control that is power. Should I get the gift of reconciling I will have a choice of deciding whether or not he's all in or not. Whether I stay and fight or whether I leave. I decide not him.

I'm not there yet by all means but this is where I'm aiming for but first I have to get to the part where I don't need him anymore. This part stinks.

There is very little I can control. I can control my own actions and words. I am very consciously not trying to blame shift. Although I would have preferred she told me she resented me for the move, I understand that my behaviors contributed to her reticence. I don't go so far as to say "I allowed her to treat me this way" but there is some truth there also. It's why one of my recent 180s is to cut out the validation and speak up for myself sometimes. It runs counter to DB advice, but I think I let myself be walked on, and let my W continue to project because I was not expressing my feelings. As long as I am okay with her reactions - ignoring what I say, arguing, projecting, twisting my words. I don't have any expectations about how she will react (in fact my expectation is all of the above), but I think it would be wrong for me to stay silent. At some point, if we are ever to even attempt a reconciliation, the first little baby step would be her actually acknowledging what I say. Showing me that she listened. I don't expect this will ever happen, but if it does, I will surely notice.

The dynamic for the past several months was my W shifting 100% of the blame onto me. Any blame she accepts (at least as far as she has shown to me) is that she allowed the move to happen even though internally she was unsure at best. I don't see that as a proper acknowledgment of her role.

Relationships are dynamic. There are individual issues, and then the issues of the dynamic between two people. It's complicated. Blame is pointless. We all make mistakes. We can all do better. I certainly could have done a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Many worries
I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but I just want to note that it will take a lot more time than you think. A lot.

MW - I agree 100%. Maybe in 5 years, if ever.

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Although I would have preferred she told me she resented me for the move,

Any blame she accepts (at least as far as she has shown to me) is that she allowed the move to happen even though internally she was unsure at best. I don't see that as a proper acknowledgment of her role.


I don't remember your story but offhand I'm not sure I completely believe her. I feel for you though. I cannot even imagine going through this having to see her everyday. How do you do that??

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Originally Posted by unchien
I was in a minor text skirmish with her tonight. I no longer avoid them completely. At one point I said, "Why do you always assume the worst in me?" and she responded "Because you blah blah blah..."


Well you kind of set yourself up for that one! Why even reply, it's texting! You can wait a couple of hours to reply. Or not reply at all. Don't let her draw you into nonsense, and if you do then validate and let it go. I know it's not easy, all of us are naturally inclined to defend ourselves. My GF is a classic example, pushes my buttons to get a reaction. If I defend myself it almost always ends up being a fight where we both think we're "defending ourselves". If I validate then inevitably she'll apologize and say she was just having a bad day. There's a MC who talks about it being like ju jitsu where you use your opponent's moves to defeat them. Instead of trying to block their attack, you allow them to attack and divert it and as a result you gain the upper hand. That is EXACTLY what validating is. Some people think validating is giving up or giving in, no it is not that at all. It is a different way of fighting back. It is ALLOWING an attack and dodging out of the way. You don't block it, but you don't let it hit you either. Validation is NOT an admission of guilt, or even saying "you're right". It is simply acknowledging that person has feelings and their feelings NO MATTER HOW CRAZY OR NONSENSICAL are legitimate. Right?


Last edited by AnotherStander; 10/10/19 07:25 PM.

Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by kas99
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Although I would have preferred she told me she resented me for the move,

Any blame she accepts (at least as far as she has shown to me) is that she allowed the move to happen even though internally she was unsure at best. I don't see that as a proper acknowledgment of her role.


I don't remember your story but offhand I'm not sure I completely believe her. I feel for you though. I cannot even imagine going through this having to see her everyday. How do you do that??

I don't have to see her every day =)

I moved into a separate house 4 months ago.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
I was in a minor text skirmish with her tonight. I no longer avoid them completely. At one point I said, "Why do you always assume the worst in me?" and she responded "Because you blah blah blah..."


Well you kind of set yourself up for that one! Why even reply, it's texting! You can wait a couple of hours to reply. Or not reply at all. Don't let her draw you into nonsense, and if you do then validate and let it go. I know it's not easy, all of us are naturally inclined to defend ourselves. My GF is a classic example, pushes my buttons to get a reaction. If I defend myself it almost always ends up being a fight where we both think we're "defending ourselves". If I validate then inevitably she'll apologize and say she was just having a bad day. There's a MC who talks about it being like ju jitsu where you use your opponent's moves to defeat them. Instead of trying to block their attack, you allow them to attack and divert it and as a result you gain the upper hand. That is EXACTLY what validating is. Some people think validating is giving up or giving in, no it is not that at all. It is a different way of fighting back. It is ALLOWING an attack and dodging out of the way. You don't block it, but you don't let it hit you either. Validation is NOT an admission of guilt, or even saying "you're right". It is simply acknowledging that person has feelings and their feelings NO MATTER HOW CRAZY OR NONSENSICAL are legitimate. Right?


AS - I agree for the most part with your points. I was baited and I bit.

When we first went to MC2, my W started talking about this episodes she called abuse. I listened, I validated, I didn't defend. In a private conversation with the counselor, he thought that I was AGREEING with her version of events.

There is a point where validation is not the right approach. When faced with a narrative of abuse that is factually untrue, I do need to defend myself.

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There is a point where validation is not the right approach. When faced with a narrative of abuse that is factually untrue, I do need to defend myself.


My father used to say you can't do anything with the truth as THEY see it. I believe there is a way to validate without agreeing. When WAH and I fought (years ago when this started) I just agreed because it was easier than defending. In hindsight there was nothing I could have done to change his narrative about me. I could have produced a video, concrete evidence and then maybe I might have a had a chance at convincing him but barring that I had nothing and I got nowhere.

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