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A Message from Michele
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Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865074
09/12/19 01:04 AM
09/12/19 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Zip
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust. Seems counter-intuitive.... R2C and AS were here and could use some support in this as Iím a bit lost.
You should act like you do when having a conversation with a cashier. Pleasant, but not personal.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"

Persevere = happily being patient over a long period of time
Re: The last straw [Re: CWarrior] #2865081
09/12/19 02:08 AM
09/12/19 02:08 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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CW, this is what I thought and am going to meet w a L next week. This is #2 L, the back up plan which I learned years ago in business. Got a logical one to start but the bulldog is in my back pocket if needed and now blocked from W retaining her. With that said, itís pointing to W stalling.

When we had the few conversations, she says she canít move on but has an excuse for everything such as moving out, selling property, not having a place to buy as she isnít going to rent...on and on. Mind you, she has put away a six figure nest egg she slipped up and told me about that she has been working on the past couple years while I am keeping everything afloat. Talk about a slight trust issue. She could buy a place for cash for what she wants. Furthermore her sis moved to a shore home and still has her home in town which is sitting vacant 80% of the time. Suggested she move there and her response was, ďnot in that town, besides you could move to your brotherís houseĒ. Yup, I could if we didnít have livestock to tend to.

Other issues have surfaced w D2, she has no respect for me(a learned trait from W) and W and D2 are BFFs. This crap is getting very frustrating and the disrespect from her is becoming a part of the overall issue. W will not engage in supporting me nor has she for quite some time. This family has become disfunctional and W has driven it to this point. D1 says just ignore them many times as she has had her fill with them as well. Just one more reason to move on. I donít see any way to reverse this with W so controlling. I feel beat down by all of this but Iím going to chalk it up to a bad day and hope for a better day tomorrow.

Was hoping life would be easier at this age.....


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Ready2Change] #2865082
09/12/19 02:25 AM
09/12/19 02:25 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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R2C. Thanks for the advice.

So for example, tonight, I came in from the barn and W was on her iPad and watching tv, I walked through the room, made eye contact and kept going to the BR. No convo at all. She knows I am out happy w D2 and her and she said nothing so I said nothing. This is becoming a standoff. I guess if she has something to say, I can politely answer, otherwise keep moving?

Have a B-Day dinner for me she has planned for tomorrow night. Not sure who but guess itís D1 and fiancť, D2 and BF, W and I. Right now, Iím ready to cancel it. Why be with W and D2 with their disrespect for me.

Think I need to sleep on this, I prefer to avoid conflict and go. Nothing good will come of me cancelling although, there is going to be a time Iím not gonna give a s#@7; and let them know Iím done.

My brain is feeling like a pinball machine with thoughts all over the place.

All of your advice is well appreciated and is sinking in....thanks so much.

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Ready2Change] #2865155
09/12/19 08:26 PM
09/12/19 08:26 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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How do you try rebuilding trust and validate if you are trying to show with actions and not words?

Could use some help, if some of the vets can offer some advice i would greatly appreciate jt !!


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865161
09/12/19 08:56 PM
09/12/19 08:56 PM
Joined: May 2019
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unchien Online
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Hey Zip - First time posting here on your thread.

Steve85 gave you great advice on rebuilding trust:

Originally Posted by Steve85
I know what you are going through, been through it myself. Continuing to chill is the best thing that you can do. Also, start living a life of honesty and integrity in all your dealings. This is a new self-discovery I have moved to the top of my priority list. The kind of person you are is not the person you show to others. The kind of person you are is the person you are when no one is looking. Guess what, that latter will always end up shining through, good or bad. Change who you are at your core, and then be yourself. It can't help but to have an impact on others.

Once you identify your core values, tap into them, and act with integrity whether you are alone or with other people, it will shine through.

This also means trust is not regained overnight, unfortunately. And it may never be regained. But you certainly can't regain a healthy trust without taking these steps.


M: 11, T: 15
S7, D5, D3
MC1: 09/2018-01/2019
BD: 06/12/19
MC2: 06/12/19-??
S: 06/29/19-??
Re: The last straw [Re: unchien] #2865255
09/13/19 04:54 PM
09/13/19 04:54 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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^^^^ agree with what Steve said. i am working hard on this but there is no barometer nor instant gratification as to whether anything i do is positive. Working on ME.... so I get it isnt and shouldn't be about effect.

As far as regaining trust. Probably will not ever be with W.

Sitch has slid even more as conversation is at a bare minimum. Had B Day dinner and she got some presents for me which was very nice. Interestingly enough, no card. Guess she didnt want to say anything which a card would be doing just that and would include her signing, meaning she was endorsing the card's message.

Struggling and now wondering if D is on the way from either one of us. Starting to believe this process is just drawing out the pain and suffering for more to come in the future. NOT what i want to think but starting to find it more apparent in my thought process. May be just a bad period in the whole sitch.


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865284
09/13/19 08:55 PM
09/13/19 08:55 PM
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Wow! I was chomping at the bit before I had read a dozen lines. Zip, I don't know you but I know who has been in control of this relationship, and it wasn't you. There is a lot more than trust issues going on here.

Quote
She just admitted to an EA with him this August due to her IC stating she should come clean. She denied this at the time and we both went to IC and MC.


So, was she and OM in an affair for 15 yrs and it's just now coming out? If they were spending that much time together while everyone was away........I think it's safe to assume they took the affair to the physical level. A wayward wife gives trickled down truth, and she usually will admit to a lower level of the actual truth. In other words, if she was pressured to tell you about OM, she's going to imply they were mostly friends, then finally admit that she did have a little emotional thing for him.

Okay, so why was she seeing an IC before anything came out about the affair?

I understand the MC, but why were you in IC? I'm guess I'm asking if both of you were seeing IC for the same issues. Were you seeing the same counselor?

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She stated she was confused and gave the ILYBNWY.


The only thing that causes a wife to be "confused" about her feelings for her H........is when OM is in the picture.

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She said I didnt treat her right and she was much apposed to adult films we would watch. Porn was a big part of her issue which she never shared with me before . We ended this practice as a couple.


How did you not treat her right? I suspect that was a load of b.s. She is a wayward wife who is guilty of infidelity, so she was scrambling to come up with some excuse. However, there was some reason the both of you were seeing IC. What was it?

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Intimacy was sparse and I eventually would seek relief from the internet.


Sparse, huh? How long had you been suffering a sexually starved marriage before she permanently cut you off?

Quote
After this email had been found by her, all intimacy stopped. Its been a very rocky 3 yrs with me begging for us to work on these issues. I pleaded for us to go to MC. She wouldn't agree stating it didn't work the first time when we attended 15 yrs ago.


Look Zip, the woman never intended to work on the MR. She was searching for something to use against you, and she found the email. She used that email for her handy little excuse to stop having sex with you permanently. Here's the thing I want you to consider. You went 3 yrs with no sex from your W. Did she give you a variety of excuses over those 3 yrs, or just shoot you down? Were you waiting on her to initiate? To make matters worse, or it seems to me, that you bought into her b.s. and became the underdog, while she called the shots in the bedroom, and in the family dynamic. She not only had no respect for you as a man and as her H, but demonstrated enough disrespect that it taught her D that's the way to treat a husband. Now you have two females in the home disrespecting the male leader.

Quote
I pretty much begged her to see a MC and she agreed on Valentines day to do so and would call to set an appt. I waited until the end of March to ask where she was in setting an appt. Sh said she is too busy to set an appt. let it go until the end of April and got same answer. told her I can call to set an appt. All along we are getting closer to D1 moving her horses in July if all goes well. I set an appt for the middle of May, We went to the meeting and within 15 minutes she made it clear she wanted a D and has talked to a L. I was devastated although reality was pointing in that direction.


Well in my opinion, the weight of the trust issue is due toher behavior, unless I've read it wrong. She has managed to twist things and cause you to believe that you are the bad guy here. While you would have went along with whatever she said, if you thought it would warm her blood a little. Of course, we only have your side of the story, but I'm just saying I see a man who was leaving the MR (and especially the sexual relationship) up to his W, and begging her to get help. She has been deceitful, disrespectful, manipulative, and dishonest. You say you are being transparent. Has your cheating W of 15 yrs done any transparency work? My guess is no, b/c she would feel it invades her privacy, and I'd also guess her affair had zero consequences.

Quote
Left the MC and headed home later that eve. We had a chance to speak that night and I told her this was not what I was expecting at all. She said we haven't been married for 3 yrs. I pleaded my case on why we needed to work on the M and not throw it away, she seemed to have a change in action. Still nice and showing some attention to me. A month went by and she was warming up to me but still not interested in going back to MC. All this time she is GALing and losing weight. Looking really good but still no time for me. Then I made a big mistake. She found pictures on my phone. It was of her as I havent seen her naked for 3 yrs, I took pics unbeknownst to her and i invaded her privacy. She blew up and said thats it, Im out and want a D. This was the first of August.

I know I had done wrong. No excuses for my actions. Although it wasnt of another woman, or an affair or any other action which would have caused the same outcome, it was just as bad.


WHAT?!? You took a secret photo of your naked wife (who has refused you sex for three yrs) and that's just as bad as having an affair??? Who are you listening to? Wait.......I know, it's your W! The W who was looking on your phone. The W who would have had a fit if you looked on her phone, right? The same W that had no consequences for her A.

I want to tell you something. Your W is still cheating on you. You need to get your b@lls back and stop acting like some guilty wuss. Stop acting like you were the one scr@wing around. Stop apologizing and begging. It's not attractive. How would an alpha male have reacted when his W reacted to seeing her photo on his phone?

Quote
She was showing some softening through the week and when I asked her for a hug she said sure I can do that which felt good. Later that night she left for a few days away at the beach and gave me another hug. Seemed she may be thinking things over and there may be some hope (a dangerous feeling).


No Zip, she was playing you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865292
09/13/19 10:50 PM
09/13/19 10:50 PM
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Continuing from my previous post.........

Quote
Was up early this morning outside of not sleeping well, I wanted to be gone before W and D2 got moving. Managed to get out of the house before seeing them.


Perhaps you think detaching means to avoid. I will copy a short version of the definition of DB detaching in my next post. You are working way too hard at avoiding your W and D2. (BTW most posters here identify they daughters by age, rather than order of birth......just in case it confuses anyone.) I read Another Stander's advice and I don't think he meant to completely avoid any possibility of seeing your W. IMHO, he was saying to just back off and stop trying to fix things with the methods you were using.

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She will get half and I am not bitter over that, at least not yet. She does well and has had the opportunity to save a substantial amount of cash unbeknownst to me until very recent. She did tell me but is reluctant to disclose the actual amount. I find it hard to see this as a piece of a master plan that has been put in place.


Believe it. She has been a wayward wife for quite some time, and if there's one thing WW's do.....it is to look out for #1. Yes, she has been sneaking and planning for a while. I don't know if the law can force her hand (should you divorce), but I would be checking with a lawyer. Don't tip your hand and let her know what you are thinking. Is she employed or was this your money she was stashing?

Quote
I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it. Itís very different due to her usually keeping everything close to the vest and never verbalizing, and I express exactly what is on my mind and then some. Always a negative outcome. I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.


Like I previously stated, I don't think the advice was to taken to mean you never communicate or that you try to escape the house without running into her. As the LBH, you may struggle to stay balanced when you read advice. I've been shocked to discover how some LBS's interpret the 37 rules, but I think it is partly due to the emotional stress they are under (It just couldn't be the way they were written. smile ) Also, after you are here for a little while, you'll learn our personalities and writing styles.

People like you and me have the desire to talk. We need to talk. That's how we deal with life is talking about it. I am married to a man who does not talk. I would try to have a conversation and it would always end with me having a monologue. If I had to guess, you are wondering how on earth the marital problems will be resolved if nobody is talking. You and I see talking as communication, but everyone doesn't agree, especially if emotions come into play. I think you said something about your voice getting stronger/louder as you spoke to her. I like to see men with good strong voices, but did you know that sometimes if a man speaks softly but seriously to his W, it has more effect than yelling? I am not talking about a timid voice, or one full of fear or dread. I mean getting close to her, looking her dead in the eye and softly making a statement. Don't get weird or anything. You could start to practice controlling the tone and volume of your voice, when you are talking to others, as well as to family.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you feel the urgency to talk with your W, so as to find out where she stands or tell her what you think? If she's still talking divorce, will you beg again for her to go to counseling, or will you give in to what she says? Based on what I perceived about the dynamics in your relationship, she is the leader and you follow whatever she tells you. If I'm wrong, please tell me. Just b/c she isn't the main talker, doesn't mean she isn't the one in charge. This happens a lot when the H has the mentality that a "happy wife is happy life".

Quote
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust.


Well, I've said enough about the talking, so I'll try not to repeat myself. Do you have a plan? Do you know what you really want? Not what she says, but what you want? She knows how to play this game much better than you, right? She can wait you out. I don't think a standoff is good, except to cool down and try to get control of emotions. I think that's how a lot of couples get into a sexually starved marriage. They are waiting on the other spouse to initiate, so they go for years in a standoff. BTW, I'm not telling you to go talk to her. Just hear me out, first. You need to know where YOU stand about her deceit and manipulation. You say something about trying to build trust, but what you are referring to is you having to earn her trust. Am I right? You see yourself as being the spouse who did something as bad as cheating. Well, when I came to the board back in 2007 as a wayward W who was still in an Internet affair, I was told by several LBH's that there was NOTHING worse than betrayal. If I tried to explain my situation, they shut me down (or tried to) and said if I wasn't happy in my M that I should have done the decent thing and get a divorce. Imagine that! I mean, nothing is worse than betrayal? That was the consensus of those posting to me at the time.

I said all of that for a purpose. Know who has betrayed whom by cheating with another person. If and when the subject arises, know exactly what you will not tolerate in your MR any longer. You need to study boundaries, b/c you really need to protect your feelings from this woman who manipulates your mind. Your self respect has flat lined, and the women in your household (especially the W) will never respect you until you can respect yourself. As already noted by others, you deserve better. Maybe she does, too. These issues did not pop up overnight, so I wonder if there is something deeper going on.

Anyway, don't get into a hurry to talk about things, b/c you need to do some serious soul searching about what you wish you had.....from what you really have. For example, you said you didn't know why you should still love her, but you do. My question is do you love the girl you married, or the woman she became? Know your own heart, before you try to convince someone else to change theirs.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865333
09/14/19 10:05 PM
09/14/19 10:05 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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Hi Sandi...thanks for joining in. I greatly appreciate your input and advice. I will try to get the answers regarding the questions you have posted.

The A went for 5-6 mos from 12/03 to 5/04... when it was exposed. She denied it and stated she didnt know what she wanted. Further conversations were that he was a great dad....not taking into consideration that he was in a divorce which the youngest son was heading to another state and he would not be able to spend time with him. the window for him was closing and it was easy for OM to come to the house and have his son play with D23 who was 8 at the time.

She denied any PA or EA until 8/3/19 whereby she said it was an EA and needed to come clean per her current IC. Still denies any PA... this doesnt surprise me. WHo Knows. We both then saw IC and a MC after this all blew up. She saw IC for 3 mos and I saw IC for 1.5 yrs as I was the reason for this in her mind. MC was for 3 mos and things changed whereby we were getting back to a better M. Finally had intimacy 4 mos after the incident... which was strongly urged by her IC and the MC. Not what she wanted to hear but.... We saw different IC thru this.

The IC was based on the " I dont know what I want (OM or Me) and need space"

In treating her right, she felt I put her at the bottom of the list of who came first. She felt I was putting, work, church activities, coaching the Ds and a Civic group all before her. She was on the bottom. I didnt see this but she felt this way.

As far as the adult films, she never stated it as a problem until she had a convo with OM who said it was wrong and there shouldnt be a TV in the bedroom. She bought in and I agreed to end it based on the MC and her stating it was wrong.

As far as a sex starved marriage, I would have to say probably 6-7 yrs based on what i feel should have been much better. She found correspondence/ email which she felt very permissive. this was during the sparse intimacy period and shut it down July 2016. there was one other time in Jan 17 that we had sex. That was it. Asked for her and she was never willing and always a reason. I would get mad and that is how it ended, I try again and she wanted nothing to do with me. Too tired, come to bed after or before me... anything to avoid it.

I bought into her BS.... with no way of moving it off dead center. She refused to do anything about it and said all her friends are in the same situation and she is no different. told her that is them, not us... still didn't matter. YOU finally get so angry, then tired of being angry, that you give up. Try looking for the good and hope for a better time. I also heard about the menopause issues that play a role in it. She has no medical issues outside of the norm needing lubrication but nothing out of the ordinary.

I have given her reasons for trust, ie the email and correspondence she saw....all by snooping but... still I did wrong there. then the pic issue is what she feels went WAY OVER the Edge...and endorsed by her support group.

Not sure how an ALPHA male would have handled it...maybe tell her its of you and get over it? Not sure but seems most who know think it was horrendous, unless they come clean with having pics of their own of their spouses. Males dont see it as a D ending issue, Females think the absolute worst of me and it holds all the merit needed to say bye.

How did i see it, well, yes it was wrong. Really wrong, Does it warrant a D, well with all the past showing she has been quite protective, it gives her the excuse to paint me as the horrible H. I dont think it is the end all, but even this morning with a rare conversation, it breaks her down discussing it. I validate the best i could. Told her I am sorry and see how devastating it has been to her. And that I can't imagine the hurt I have caused her.

She has stated it would have been easier if I had an affair. Yes from her and not others although my IC feels it would end most M.

I agree there was no consequence paid for her A.... which by the way... just became that out of her mouth last month.

I totally agree that she has been planning an out although she can play me in saying there was no plan... the monies she has saved is from her being self employed, We both are self employed in different businesses. She doesnt tell me what she makes nor does she ask me of my business. We handle certain bills which she has the food, H/E loan and one other loan for a lot. I handle the Mtge and most insurances. My monthly is much heavier than hers which allowed her to sock monies away. She still states it wasnt being hidden, I have never seen it as it is in her business account. I am not on it nor do i snoop. I know i will see it but it hasnt been offered even up to this morning when I asked about it in a conversation i will explain below.

I do want to talk about the R and where we stand as well as finding out what is going on. She said she was giving a 30 peroid to see where her feelings were. A great time when I am trying my best to just stay sane. I was not aware of this timeframe and sitting on the sidelines waiting for paperwork. She used the conversation we had while she was on the beach to decide it would not work moving forward as she cant live like this anymore.

Will I talk to her and beg to save the M or go to MC....no. I told her were i am and she needs to decide for herself if she wants to move forward., I need to work on what I want. Wrote a list of what I want and she is hitting 25% of the list at best. Could she be at 80%, yes, will she? Who knows but probably not at this time. W will need to step up and agree to working on this 100% which isnt going to happen. PEROID. Her feelings, pride, and what she wants will not let her do this, IMHO.

Our convo today was that she wanted to RSVP for a wedding, She saw a post on FB, which is the first and last i will do. it said " as I look in my past, i found as one door closes that i wanted to stay open, there seems another always comes open that is a better option to what I thought was good" not exactly that but it was pretty clear that I was saying if she is leaving, i will find another door to move forward though. IT WAS NOT A WISE POST. She pretty much told me I shouldnt go as i may stir up drama. This is what took us to where the D stands.

She said the L was putting a doc together to allow her to buy a home while we were working out the details..... WHat does that mean???? I thought it over and realize after the conv was over, what she was saying is she will file for D with the doc saying she can purchase a home thereafter and i will not be on the deed. this is saying she is moving on....

I saw her this afternoon and told her i now know what she meant by the docs and it was to be attached to the filing, She then said she didn t know what she was doing and she wasnt going to talk about it. this would have been a good time to discuss being we has an empty house. She said she wasnt discussuing it and I said thats fine, when you feel up to it, let me know, not an issue waiting and I just dont want all the hard feelings working through it.


I need to decide where I want to go, If the W could meet somewhere in the middle and work on the M, I am open, She told me she paid the annual propane bill which i found odd if she is leaving. Then yesterday, she wrote a sizable check for my quarterly est income tax bill which we have split out for each of us to pay with our portions spelled out which we both pay our portions. She said since i pay the health ins, she would pay my taxes for me. I am not sure what she is doing nor do i understand why she is unloading this $$ when she is planning on leaving.

FInding the last 48 hrs have been mixed messages. NO IDEA but worried that she may just be playing me.

Meeting w the L this week. Will have a better feel for whats going on to protect myself,

VERY CONFUSED...

Sandi, Hope this helps and any input or clarification will be greatly apreciated!!!

thanks to everyone else as your advice is very welcome.

Z.


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865573
09/17/19 01:40 PM
09/17/19 01:40 PM
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I forgot to copy & paste the DB definition of detaching.

*************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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