You’re kinda in a tough spot because right now it seems remaining separated Is her best option right now and that is going to mean you remain in limbo.
Also... you are so right here. Separation is her best option right now, at least the way she sees things. There's not much I can do unless I want to file, which is not the case today.
We are working on a financial arrangement where we each have a separate account that will get some fixed amount of money per month. Now my W wants to talk about who pays for which family/friend's birthday gifts. Literally $10 gifts. This level of detail is just exhausting. It's more detailed than a D settlement (I think).
Silly stuff like this just tell her when it comes up you will discuss it then. My XW was the same way, wanted to split every little expense 50-50 and work it out ahead of time. I just told her it was too much for me to think about and we would discuss it on a case-by-case basis as it came up. But we rarely have because we both contributed pretty equally after the D. I think once she saw it was working out that way that she backed off of it.
I'm hopeful the same will happen with us. She has brought up little things before, and neither of us have the time or energy to go back and forth over it all, so those concerns drop off sometimes.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
She gets triggered when I don't agree with what she wants.
How do you mean, does she start yelling or getting aggressive or what? Next time just put a stop to it. Tell her you're not going to talk to her unless she can treat you with respect and if her mistreatment continues you will hang up. If she keeps doing it then tell her the convo is over and hang up.
I would say aggressive. Harsh tone of advice, lecturing, gets worked up, rants for awhile. Not really name-calling, just emotional thinking at its worst. I am much better with my NGS, but previously I would equate "strong emotions" with "truth". And also, it's easier to appease the emotional person rather than stand up for myself.
Many times just validating helps now. But she is getting worse with the stress of the situation.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
It's so frustrating... she's complaining about M'd life, S'd life and D'd life all at once. And in her mind it's all my fault. "You don't act like someone who wants to reconcile."
"I am sorry you feel this way but this is not the subject of this conversation, now let's get back on topic, we were going to discuss XYZ." I am absolutely NOT exaggerating when I say REPEAT THIS OVER AND OVER if you have to. That is as much validating as you should do in a conversation that is supposed to be about kids and finances.
I need to do stick to this, you are right. Thank you.
Took me up until this very moment Uni to finally dispel my resentment, my attitude, my anger about my lines in the sand being crossed over house, over being ignored, chastized, blame shamed, gas lit, feeling like an ATM, discarded for only when they need something, being discarded, self differentiating, etc. Sometimes a f@$! em attitude is healthy, sometimes its hurtful. I just want to D just on principle alone at this point. There is no benefit to M the way things are. You are you, they are them, you are who your are now, they are them now. Just what it is. Took the kid out for ice cream, and got a few toys at Wal-Mart. Had a great time. I noticed when it's just me and him, the world melts away, even the STBXW. I feel like a big kid with him and I absolutely love it and the simple things. I'm still stuck until the the appraisal and buyout. But looking forward to new life and new freedom when it does finally happen.
I guess where I'm going with this is maybe its time to take a break. A break from MC and break from the W, a break from D busting, they want you to go just away for now. So just exit gracefully and bow out. We are all awesome individuals in our own right and our own worth. Flaws and all. I realized peace and detachment is achieved when we step back from what is ailing us. If they cannot recognize our worth. Then all we can do is focus on ourselves, our growth, and our kids.
What is detachment to each of you here? Im curious? I'm sure each if you have their own personal definition. Mine is I am free to be myself without judgement from myself or from others. That I can improve, reflect, create, plan goals, and be myself, good, bad, and ugly, without having it bother me anymore what someone else, W family, friends, strangers, etc reflect on my self worth. That is how I let go with love, without resentment, with forgiveness, but still understanding what has been done, what cannot be undone, and what I am no longer willing to settle for. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to walk away from it. Thank you guys for helping me find my balance.
Took me up until this very moment Uni to finally dispel my resentment, my attitude, my anger about my lines in the sand being crossed over house, over being ignored, chastized, blame shamed, gas lit, feeling like an ATM, discarded for only when they need something, being discarded, self differentiating, etc. Sometimes a f@$! em attitude is healthy, sometimes its hurtful. I just want to D just on principle alone at this point. There is no benefit to M the way things are. You are you, they are them, you are who your are now, they are them now. Just what it is. Took the kid out for ice cream, and got a few toys at Wal-Mart. Had a great time. I noticed when it's just me and him, the world melts away, even the STBXW. I feel like a big kid with him and I absolutely love it and the simple things. I'm still stuck until the the appraisal and buyout. But looking forward to new life and new freedom when it does finally happen.
I guess where I'm going with this is maybe its time to take a break. A break from MC and break from the W, a break from D busting, they want you to go just away for now. So just exit gracefully and bow out. We are all awesome individuals in our own right and our own worth. Flaws and all. I realized peace and detachment is achieved when we step back from what is ailing us. If they cannot recognize our worth. Then all we can do is focus on ourselves, our growth, and our kids.
What is detachment to each of you here? Im curious? I'm sure each if you have their own personal definition. Mine is I am free to be myself without judgement from myself or from others. That I can improve, reflect, create, plan goals, and be myself, good, bad, and ugly, without having it bother me anymore what someone else, W family, friends, strangers, etc reflect on my self worth. That is how I let go with love, without resentment, with forgiveness, but still understanding what has been done, what cannot be undone, and what I am no longer willing to settle for. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to walk away from it. Thank you guys for helping me find my balance.
What is your meaning of detachment?
Detachment is a journey and not an end state. When I look back at my sitch over time, there were times I thought I had detached. Interestingly, over time I continued to detach more. Especially for those of us with kids you can never 100% detach but you eventually reach a place where you have no resentment or anger towards your WAS. You don't see them as someone who fired you as your spouse. You accept your new life and find happiness in the same. If you are still angry at your WAS or bitter about what they did, then you have have a long way to go in terms of detachment
If I were to distill it down to one thought from that list it would be this one:
"Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life."
When you get to the point where nothing your WAS says or does affects you personally, then you are detached. I'm not saying you don't feel empathy for them, I'm saying that your feelings aren't driven by their feelings. This is how I used to put it (haven't said this in quite a while):
Attached: Spouse angry = you angry Spouse happy = you happy Spouse sad = you sad
Detached: Spouse angry = you happy Spouse happy = you happy Spouse sad = you happy
When I look back at my sitch over time, there were times I thought I had detached. Interestingly, over time I continued to detach more.
Yes, exactly. About 6 months after S I thought I was detached. Then a few months later I looked back and realized I wasn't, but had finally become detached. Then another 3 months I again looked back and AGAIN realized I had not been fully detached. This went on for a while, with me thinking I was done and detached and later realizing I wasn't as detached as I thought.
Quote
you eventually reach a place where you have no resentment or anger towards your WAS.
Definitely a big sign you are reaching detachment when you get to here.
Quote
You don't see them as someone who fired you as your spouse. You accept your new life and find happiness in the same. If you are still angry at your WAS or bitter about what they did, then you have have a long way to go in terms of detachment
Yup. Some people never do get there. My brother has been divorced for 10 years and is still very angry and bitter about it. I've tried telling him he needs to let go for his own peace of mind, but he just refuses to do it.
Yup. Some people never do get there. My brother has been divorced for 10 years and is still very angry and bitter about it. I've tried telling him he needs to let go for his own peace of mind, but he just refuses to do it.
There is a saying "Holding onto anger and resentment is like holding on to burning coal". Letting go is a very important part of healing
Thank you everyone for the support in particular on the 50-50 comment.
I didn't put all the dumb mistakes in my prior post. Here is probably the worst one, it is paraphrased because I tend not to remember word-for-word exchanges:
W: I sacrificed everything to move here for you. My career, my family, my friends. I am screwed financially. Me: I can understand that is really hard for you. W: Really?! Do you REALLY understand?
And the mistake:
Me: It's not easy for me either. You aren't the only one sacrificing. Sometimes I feel like all I do is provide a bag of money and in return I go 10 day stretches without seeing the kids.
I know it was a mistake and I need to do what AS suggested. I am going to think about proposing we try to handle these matters over e-mail and keep the phone calls to discussions about the kids.
There was a LOT discussed. Financially it seems my W is really worried about establishing credit because she has no income. She feels like things are frozen. I told her I didn't freeze anything, and she said, "Yeah I know" So she wanted in addition to a monthly spending account (which we each get, so it's fair) to transfer a fairly large sum of money into a savings account in her name. I said fine as long as I can do the same. It's a big of a red flag for me -- I don't think she will go spending it, but it happens to be suspiciously roughly the amount a L would ask for for a retainer. But this is me getting paranoid... even if that were true, great. I'm glad if she can feel more secure as long as it's fair.
She was also paranoid about my work retirement money, as the financial advisor told us last week once the money gets swept into my 401(k) it is separate property. I said OK, but I get this big company match which is basically free money. I agreed to write a document stating I am okay with this 401(k) being considered part of community property. I really don't care. Split it all down the middle if we go that route.
There was a lot of intense conversation about our timeshare schedule. Before the call, my W asked me to propose a schedule for the 2 week Xmas/NY holiday (yes, that far ahead). I gave her roughly a 50/50 time split with exchanges every 2 or 3 days. She fired back in e-mail that she wanted to take the kids to SD, they did that a lot last year, she didn't know we would be in this position this year, it was hard no. I responded (in email): "OK, what would work for you?" And she proposed something, and I said, "Great!" So I did well there (I think)
Right now I do every other Friday pm through Tuesday am with the kids. I'd like to squeeze in a family dinner during my 10 days without them, and maybe after awhile try to get an overnight in there. Three issues came up on the call:
1. My kids started school a week ago. My W is concerned that them staying at my house during the school week is disruptive. I did get a little triggered, and said "Of course I want what's best for the kids, they are adjusting to a lot, let's see how they do." She seemed to want me to instead do a "3 out of 4 weekends" Friday pm through Sunday pm kind of a deal. I didn't bite. One of my friends did that, and he said it was rough because he had 1 weekend a month. But regardless if the kids can adjust I want weeknights.
2. We have to switch up our alternating weekends a few times, mostly due to my W's plans (which I am being very accommodating about). If my W has consecutive weekends, that would be 18 days straight with the kids. She had proposed I take 1 weekend day. I had countered (this was weeks ago). That we should each take 2 days (out of my normal 4), and alternate who gets which 2 days and it will all balance out. Anyways, she is still "thinking about it." This one irritates me, because I think what I proposed is as fair as you can get to respect our existing timeshare schedule, but she acts like I'm being difficult.
3. She booked travel in October before our separation. Somehow it is my fault that this means she wouldn't see the kids for an extra couple days (she is going Wednesday night through Sunday). Obviously this is one of my weekends with the kids, and she didn't like going Wednesday night through Tuesday morning without the kids. I had thought she wanted to get them Sunday morning which I didn't like because I sacrifice a whole weekend day. I ended up saying, OK, How about I just do Wednesday night through Sunday night? and we agreed.
Oh there are more details... we are also going to try a budgeting app. Our financial advisor is going to run the state calculator to see what temporary spousal support would look like. My W thinks the budget is a factor, and I said I'm pretty sure it's based off income and custody alone. The budget is for our benefit so we can see the whole picture of this separation. I may be wrong.
Even more... one of my weekends, D5 has a dance competition. These things require getting all dolled up with makeup and hair, etc. My W wanted to do her makeup and hair, even though it's my weekend. I said ok. There is no way I can do dance hair. Right now I've only progressed to French braids with my girls, no makeup yet
So many details...
Overall what was disappointing to me was my W's mindset. She's really rewriting history on our move. I feel like writing some about that here as well. Sorry this is such a long post but I don't think I've ever really covered this aspect:
Three years ago we decided to sell our home in the town where my W's family lives. We had lived there about 8 years. My W didn't like the neighborhood, and I agreed, although we were locked into an amazing mortgage. My W was working part-time, and I had a job at a startup making low pay. This city did not have a lot of job opportunities for me in general. We decided to rent for a year, and by the end of that year, make a decision -- buy a new home, move, etc. I should also say we rarely saw her family while we lived there. But my W built up a decent circle of friends for herself, and we both had our reasons for loving the lifestyle.
That year of renting was stressful. It is the year my parents cut me off. Leading up to the end of the lease, we were looking at so many options. My W wanted to buy a house we couldn't afford. I went to my startup and got a 25% raise. It wasn't enough to make this work. Yes I was unhappy in the job, but if we bought a less expensive home I knew we could swing it for awhile.
In the meantime, I was investigating my other job options. One thing about startups is you only feel confident in your job security for the next 3 months anyways. They were promising bonuses and not paying them, etc.
We ended up with 3 choices. Stay at the startup, move to city #1 (less expensive, less desirable place to live, overall would have been an "easy" lifestyle financially), or move to city #2 (extremely expensive, tons of job opportunities, place where my W and I first met, and a job offer for me that would make it all work).
We chose move to city #2. I make about 2x what I made at the startup after the raise. I thought my W supported this, in fact my NGS was in over-gear at the time trying to make sure this was true. When we went to MC1 last year, she confirmed she was fully on board. So this shift is frustrating to me. It's as if she feels I emotionally coerced her to move.
So now the situation is that if we D, I have a nice-paying job and yes it would be fairly easy for me to adjust financially. I probably can't afford a home, but I will land on my feet. My W feels completely screwed financially. But it's not my fault, in my mind. We have been here now 2 full years and she has yet to start working. Also not my fault.
Sometimes I think staying at the startup would have been the right choice, but only if I also had somehow gone through the personal growth I have gone through now. We would have been financially in a bad spot, but maybe we could have made it work out. I would have been less worried about "the future."
The startup is still going, still not paying bonuses, and still has no payoff opportunities. It was job limbo, and still is for the people I stay in touch with. They hate it. I didn't want that for my family.
I think my W really struggled with adjusting to the move. She is a proud woman and has done some amazing things. She paid her way through school and got a PhD, all while her parents did not support her. Her siblings have a negative attitude about life and generally scratch by. So I think my W thought this was just another big change she could handle. And I think she really couldn't. I feel sad for her. I can see how she has crafted a narrative in her head so she doesn't have to directly deal with it. It's my fault, not hers. She's screwed, she's the victim. If only we could just move back to the home city. It's really interesting to see her negativity, now that I have learned to pull myself out of it. I don't feel superior, I empathize with her, I was there just a few months ago. I'm surprised how she has been in IC for 6 months and still feels this way. I'm surprised she doesn't realize she is in charge of her own happiness.
OK this is way too long, thanks for reading whoever got to this point!
I just got a chance to catch up on your post. I don't have time right now to post a lot but wanted to talk about two things that caught my attention.
I am not sure about your specific sitch but I believe most states should have guidelines for possession of children by custodial and non-custodial parents. If I were you, I would start the negotiation starting with the amount of custody that are laid out by the guidelines non-custodial parent in your state. You can ask for more, but personally I don't know why you would ask for anything less than this. Getting another legal consultation is probably worth it at this point given where things are heading
401k usually is community property. Any amount in the 401k account prior to marriage can be considered separate property but money earned during the marriage including company match is usually community property. Is there a specific reason your financial consultant is saying it is separate property? Do a google search or get a second opinion just to be safe
Thanks MLC - The custodial stuff is really tricky given what has been going on in my sitch (not going to repeat everything here). But I am definitely worried how it will all shake out, and exhausted trying to walk the tightrope during this separation. My understanding is that in my state (and most states today), they start with a 50-50 assumption unless there are compelling reasons to change.
The 401k contributions comprise such a minuscule amount of our total assets that it is a don't care for me. What is more troubling to me is the exhausting back-and-forth over these little financial items, which concern my W very much.
