Persistent Endurance (Part 5)

[joejoe1]

Curt,

IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.

If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.

You are still to attached you don't want to disclose because you want to get her to Rville, to me that is a really selfish statement and it's all about you. Your W has free choice, and going to Rville needs to be her CHOICE and not your manipulation. Because, that's how she will feel if you go there and bring up OM without giving her a chance to decide on her own if she want to go under the condition that she is an adulterous. Most Rville has a little bit of religious aspect to it and bringing her there, disclosing what you know and then opening up about your feelings, will feel like a mountain coming down on top of her.

You are still trying to control your sitch. You need to let go and allow her to come to you from a place of honesty and transparency. Right now, you and her have too much under the rug and in the closet.

Too me your mindset is not set up in the right way. You are way too worried about losing her. You keep saying, "If I tell her what I know, it will push her away". Guess what she is already gone. You need to change you mindset to be, "In order to have a chance of getting my W back and having a happy M, I must command respect". That means you must tell her what you know, lay it all out and move forward. Be a man that can walk in truth and hold people accountable when they have wronged you. Right now you are not that man.

Stop thinking about losing your wife, because all your actions have been in prevention of losing her. And start thinking about gaining respect, and that will put you in a place and have you acting in a way that gives you the best chance of winning your W back.

Joe

[curtis7]

Curt,

IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.

If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.

You are still to attached you don't want to disclose because you want to get her to Rville, to me that is a really selfish statement and it's all about you. Your W has free choice, and going to Rville needs to be her CHOICE and not your manipulation. Because, that's how she will feel if you go there and bring up OM without giving her a chance to decide on her own if she want to go under the condition that she is an adulterous. Most Rville has a little bit of religious aspect to it and bringing her there, disclosing what you know and then opening up about your feelings, will feel like a mountain coming down on top of her.

You are still trying to control your sitch. You need to let go and allow her to come to you from a place of honesty and transparency. Right now, you and her have too much under the rug and in the closet.

Too me your mindset is not set up in the right way. You are way too worried about losing her. You keep saying, "If I tell her what I know, it will push her away". Guess what she is already gone. You need to change you mindset to be, "In order to have a chance of getting my W back and having a happy M, I must command respect". That means you must tell her what you know, lay it all out and move forward. Be a man that can walk in truth and hold people accountable when they have wronged you. Right now you are not that man.

Stop thinking about losing your wife, because all your actions have been in prevention of losing her. And start thinking about gaining respect, and that will put you in a place and have you acting in a way that gives you the best chance of winning your W back.

Joe

I’m really struggling today going back and forth on 3 options:
1) Attend Rville at the end of Sept without discussing her A’s beforehand
2) Disclose to her that I know she’s still having PAs
3) Confront her with my speech that I’m moving forward and ready to proceed with the D process.

The A’s are so painful, it’s the most cruel thing a person can do to their S IMO. It hurts so bad knowing she’s giving herself to OM and lying and gaslighting me about it. I’ve been thinking often over the past couple months that I just want the pain to go away. Loving detachment is so difficult with affairs.

Here are my thoughts on each path:
1) I can put my blinders on and make it to Rville, perhaps her PAs blow up in the meantime. This is the time and space approach. I still go into Rville without her knowing what I know and it will be apparent fairly quickly there if she is being honest. I would be relying on a miracle happening there.
2) I see two outcomes, we rapidly move towards the D legal process or we finally have an honest discussion about her choices and she may still be willing to attend Rville. I see the latter highly unlikely based on where she’s at right now.
3) This route effectively ends my stand and allows me to move forward with some respect for myself. I suppose Rville is a possibility if she has a change of heart during the D process.

I’m contemplating if I’ll regret it in the future if she was willing to try Rville and I did something that changed her mind about going. Always asking myself the question what if we had gone. We all wish we had the answers to know which choices to make that won’t self-sabotage our DBing goals.

Just not a good day for me emotionally. I don’t want to make an impulsive decision, but the pain is getting to me today.

Fortunately the kids are with me this weekend and I can pour out my love on them and take solace that they actually welcome and appreciate it compared to my WW.

I’m coaching S8’s baseball team in a tournament this weekend. He hit a walkoff triple in the first game and homered twice in the second. WW showed up 45 minutes late for the first game. First tournament she attended all summer, but she was only there in body as she spent almost all her time on her phone. Sometimes I wish she would just stay away, out of sight, out of mind.

[joejoe1]

Curt,

Your last post was completely about, what your WW will do.

Listen, I'm imploring you to reread your last post over and over. Because it was written by a very weak man. You can't control a thing your WW does, and that post was all about trying to predict an outcome. STOP IT! The only thing you need worrying controlling is you. YOU, YOU, not your WW.

It's her choice to go. Stop blaming yourself, ACCEPT your fault, forgive yourself and move forward. Her decision to go or not go is her decision, and her decision alone.

You wrote 3 options, then gave yourself two paths, then ended with yourself seeing one outcome (that was wild). You have to focus on yourself, too much focus is still on her.

The options you need to give yourself, should be about you, and only you.

Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern

Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.

If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?

[curtis7]

Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern

Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.

If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?

Joe, thanks for the reply. I’m reading your posts over and over again and it’s starting to sink in. Leading with honesty and respect is the type of relationship I want to build upon. Believe me, I’m getting there, working myself up to it.

Doing much better today. Coached S8’s baseball team this weekend and they won the tournament. He hit 5 more homers today to finish with 6 homers in 4 games. Absolutely incredible!! I get so much enjoyment out of leading these boys and showing them how to compete with good sportsmanship. I especially enjoyed handing the team trophy to the son of the deceased father that died in the motorcycle accident a couple weeks ago. He will remember it forever.

GAL continued with sprucing up the yard, soaking in the pool, going to the gym, and then out for sushi with a friend. Keeping busy kept my mind off WW and when I did think of her it was a mix of disgust and indifference. I’m going to give Rville some more thought, I may call the 800 number in the next couple days to ask some questions on what they recommend / policies on a spouse that has been or still is involved in an affair.

[curtis7]

I’m going to give Rville some more thought, I may call the 800 number in the next couple days to ask some questions on what they recommend / policies on a spouse that has been or still is involved in an affair.

I called the Retrouvaille folks a couple days ago and discussed the program in greater detail. They did confirm that it doesn't work if one S is still actively involved with APs. They also stated that a commitment needs to be made to attend both the weekend and all 6 post sessions. Again, they stated the program doesn't work if the post sessions aren't attended as well. The phone interview is usually conducted shortly before the actual event, but they offered to call sooner to get the active affair question out there.

IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.

If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.

Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern

Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.

If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?

I decided to tell her.

I started by asking if she had any more questions about Retrouvaille after reading about the program online. Her concerns and my responses were as follows:
1) Staying in a hotel room with me and much of the work being individual couples work in the room. I explained that there are two beds in the room. Also, I briefly described dialoguing and how the couples write about their feelings, then go back to their room to discuss each other's responses.
2) Time commitment of the weekend plus the post sessions. I shared that Friday is check-in early evening followed by introductions and starting the program from 8pm-11pm. Saturday is a full day and Sunday finishes around 5pm. She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.
3) Being judged by others. I explained that the only time we share anything with the group is during introductions. I told her my intent is not to go there to guilt or ambush her or bring up the past. I said the first weekend is not the time to address those issues. Rather to give us a new methodology to communicate and a foundation for the present and going forward.
4) Her uncommon views of MR not agreeing with the Christian definition of MR. I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous. She said that I shouldn't have high expectations and not be surprised if the teachings don't work on her because I will likely be disappointed.

At that point, I brought up the primary requirement of not being involved with OM. I told her that I know she has been involved with OM1 and OM2 in the past 9 months since BD (not a surprise to her as she knows that I know about the PA with OM2). I also told her that I know that she has continued that interaction with OM in the 4+ months since she moved out. I told her that it is a requirement that those relationships be over before attending Rville and I asked if those are still going to be going on. Her reply was waffling and vague at best. She said "No, I don't think so, no probably not, I don't even talk to OM2 anymore, and there is nothing with OM1." I didn't bring up OM3 which I believe is still a full blown PA and neither did she. Maybe that was a missed opportunity, I don't know if I should have challenged her on OM3 or not. I chose not to because I felt there was really nothing I can do to stop it, has to be her choice.

The door was open for her to be honest about her affairs, but she was still not willing to open up about them. I told her that honesty is very important to me moving forward and that is what I want to show her and the example I want to set for our kids. I told her I don't really know how she feels in the 4+ months since leaving since this is really the first time we really talked like this. I told her that I've tried to give her space and distance over this time to figure things out as she requested and she agreed that I have. She said she still doesn't know how she feels. I said there are some things better unknown because it's kind of like once you've seen it, then it can't be unseen. I told her that I can know enough about the past without knowing everything to try and re-establish trust. She said she doesn't know if she can't get passed everything herself and feel like I will not guilt or manipulate or be able to trust her. I replied I don't know either and won't until we are ready to try.

She said "It's me, I don't know if I can get over my transgressions." She said she hasn't been single in her life except one month between her sophomore and junior years in high school. She said she's been single over the past 9 months and I thought to myself really, you're in contact with OM on a daily basis. She said that her problem is that she goes from one fantasy to the next always looking for the ideal, that she's always lived that way and never truly lives in reality. She said she doesn't know if she can live in reality because that's not who she is. She said she really doesn't know who she is or what she wants or how she feels.

She said we are good friends right now and that's it. She doesn't feel anything else for me (FZ...great). I told her I need to be more than just friends, I want to be more than an afterthought. She complained about not being able to live the way she wants financially right now. She teared up and said she doesn't want to come back only for materialistic reasons. I agreed with her that's not why I want her to come back either, I said I want her to come back because she wants to be with me. It was quite late at this time, she was tired, and wanted to go back to her place. I thanked her for being open and said I appreciated the honesty and we said goodnight.

Well, that was the talk in a nutshell. At the moment, still a green light for Retrouvaille with a partial commitment for the weekend. It remains to be seen how deep she'll be in her affairs when it is scheduled to begin in 6 weeks. The Rville program details and addressing her concerns evolved into a R talk. I kept my cool and did not try to criticize, attack, or judge. I basically tried to accept who she is right now, what's done is done, and focus on how to move forward. I used several validating comments, asked a few questions to clarify and better understand what she was saying, and mostly tried to listen and not convince her. She clearly has a lack of attraction and minimal respect for me right now. I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM. I've read that it can take 6-24 months to get over an A. Every time they make contact her clock resets to zero. I really don't think she understands that or doesn't want to end it, or doesn't know how to break free from it.

Not sure where to go from here, ask for NC with OM? Or let things ride, let her fix her own problems, be the lighthouse, and wait for Rville?

[neffer]

Hey curtis, you are light years distance from DB doing what you´ve done. I´m sorry to tell you man...

Just give her time and space. Stop pushing. Detach and do your life. GAL like a mad man. Don´t wait for crumbs. You can´t force her back.

Go to DB basics, page 1. Start all that again.

Forget about Retrouvaille. Have some dignity and tell her she´s free to live her fantasy life. Respect yourself Curtis. Get out of that vicious cycle, it goes down and down. Emerge, onward and upward. Your family needs the lighthouse shining. Your children need to see that light. It´s yours! Shine!

NO FEAR

Stay strong there Curtis, Please excuse me for being so harsh. Your W needs to get out of her fantasy world. I was there some time ago...it´s no real. But you need to let her go and face reality too. Your family deserves that.

Be strong man. Go dark and keep DB.

RESPECT. NO FEAR

(((((((((Curtis))))))))))

[ovrrnbw]

She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.

Too hard to give up a whole weekend for the marriage? I guess that's the value she places on it.

Being judged by others.

Yea, everyone is already judging her, and her feelings about people judging her for her terrible actions are more important that how she has hurt you.

I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous.

That's a secular view as well as Christian. She can't be monogamous? How were you able to hold your food down?

I don't know if I should have challenged her on OM3 or not.

NOOOOO. Never again. Stop bringing up the OM. She is always going to be able to find another OM. The OM is not the problem, she is!

She said "It's me, I don't know if I can get over my transgressions." She said she hasn't been single in her life except one month between her sophomore and junior years in high school.

Apparently she has forgotten how marriage works and needed to vocalize this to remind herself.

She said we are good friends right now and that's it.

Good lord, Curtis.

At the moment, still a green light for Retrouvaille with a partial commitment for the weekend.

I'm not sure why you think that. Because you pressured her into an R talk where she stated she can't be monogamous and she sees you as a friend only and is fine disrespecting you openly and behind your back and that she is hurting financially (oh poor her!)?

I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM.

And she will lie to you and say "OK maybe" or just remind you how she doesn't want to be monogamous and how she loves the "single life". Why would you ever say that? In her mind y'all aren't married. In your mind you are still married to her. You have to come to peace with the difference there.

Not sure where to go from here, ask for NC with OM? Or let things ride, let her fix her own problems, be the lighthouse, and wait for Rville?

How about get rid of the horse, set a parenting schedule, tell her not come over, and tell her only to call in case of emergencies. When she shows up to pick up the kids you send them outside. When you pick up the kids you don't go inside. YOU go NC with your W.

Your acting like Did, a poster we had here for a while who never let go. And believe me I was in your shoes Curtis. I made all the mistakes too. Try giving your W some real space. Just a few weeks ago you were ready to file for D. Now you're trying to pressure her back into the MR. If you keep this up, you're going just file for D without ever giving yourself or your W that space.

[joejoe1]

Curt,

You are forcing this Rville situation. Listen, you having to do a lot of convincing to get her to go. You are almost having to drag her there. She has not committed to going or doing the work. I really think you think, if you just get her there she will see the M is important, she will come around. But, I think she will more than likely rebel more. She is in full on rebellion.

Your W is way off from Rville. She's not ready and if you blow that card now when/if she does become ready it might leave a bad taste in her mouth for later on.

You are ready to ask for NC with OM, but you didn't even bring him up. You had an opportunity to lay it all out, but you back tracked. Your WW, hasn't shown any remorse, and actually, she explained to you, that she is deep in fantasies, more than one. Your WW hasn't shown any signs of commitment, so you are not in the right timeframe or spot to ask for NC. Your WW don't even know you know about him.

You are TOOO worried about what you WW will do. The hold DB process is about YOU getting better, healing, and becoming attractive again.

You were telling her what you wanted, while she was telling you what she's going to do and not do. And nothing she has said or done, amounts to her wanting to come back.

Let me state the above again. You were telling your wife (talking not doing) what you wanted. And you WW was telling you what she will and won't do (HER ACTIONS). Her actions and your wants, are far apart.

Break contact, cancel the Rville (for now) and focus on detaching and GAL without your WW.

onward and forward

[LH19]

C,

I’m not going to pile on you because our nicest poster got you pretty good. I just want to add that my guess part of your problem in your marriage is you didn’t listen to her. You’re trying to push Retroville on her when she’s telling you she can’t be monogamous. When someone tells you who they are believe them.

All you are doing right now is reminding her she has no romantic feelings for you.

I’m very curious as to why you have never tried to actually DB?

[AnotherStander]

Curtis, I'm afraid I have to agree with Neffer and Joe, You're trying to force RV down her throat and it's just going to be a huge failure. I've been through it, I know exactly what happens there and what the atmosphere is and I guarantee you she is not going to embrace it given her current mindset. I think you should punt.

They also stated that a commitment needs to be made to attend both the weekend and all 6 post sessions. Again, they stated the program doesn't work if the post sessions aren't attended as well.

Having been through it and half the followup sessions, my take is that you've got this backwards. Or if they explained it that way then they have it backwards. The problem is this- if one or both of the couple don't buy in then they are not going to finish the followups. It's not that the program doesn't work unless you complete it all, it's that if your W isn't "all in" then you'll likely never make it through all the followups (which is what happened to me). The program doesn't work with a full-blown WAS, I am 100% convinced of that. It works wonders for someone who is on their way to being a WAS, or for struggling couples trying to figure out why they are not getting along. But once one has both feet out the door it's not going to pull them back in.

She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.

Then don't go. If she can't even commit to the whole weekend then there's no point.

Being judged by others. I explained that the only time we share anything with the group is during introductions.

It's actually peppered through the program. But it is completely voluntary. You can really unload, or you can say nothing.

4) Her uncommon views of MR not agreeing with the Christian definition of MR. I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous. She said that I shouldn't have high expectations and not be surprised if the teachings don't work on her because I will likely be disappointed.

All RV works on is communication. If she doesn't believe in marriage or monogamy, there's nothing that will happen there that will change her mind.

The door was open for her to be honest about her affairs, but she was still not willing to open up about them. I told her that honesty is very important to me moving forward and that is what I want to show her and the example I want to set for our kids. I told her I don't really know how she feels in the 4+ months since leaving since this is really the first time we really talked like this. I told her that I've tried to give her space and distance over this time to figure things out as she requested and she agreed that I have. She said she still doesn't know how she feels. I said there are some things better unknown because it's kind of like once you've seen it, then it can't be unseen. I told her that I can know enough about the past without knowing everything to try and re-establish trust. She said she doesn't know if she can't get passed everything herself and feel like I will not guilt or manipulate or be able to trust her. I replied I don't know either and won't until we are ready to try.

That was one big R talk that accomplished absolutely nothing. I'm wondering why you thought this was a good time to start pushing and pursuing her? Because it's seems like a really bad time to do it to me.

She said we are good friends right now and that's it. She doesn't feel anything else for me (FZ...great). I told her I need to be more than just friends, I want to be more than an afterthought. She complained about not being able to live the way she wants financially right now. She teared up and said she doesn't want to come back only for materialistic reasons. I agreed with her that's not why I want her to come back either, I said I want her to come back because she wants to be with me.

I can't stress enough that this convo should absolutely, positively not have happened. You are just pushing her farther and farther away. You're sounding desperate and needy.

She clearly has a lack of attraction and minimal respect for me right now.

Yes.

I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM.

You're wasting your time. Do this- cancel RV. Tell her you realize after your talk with her that it's not an appropriate time for that. Then completely and fully detach from her. No R talks, no chatty convos, no cutesy texts, NOTHING. You want to possibly save your M? Stop what you're doing and start DB'ing.