Your goals need to be about you, what you can do. Not what you want your W to do.
I cannot post copyrighted text, but a review of step 2 in the book definitely gives examples stating things like 'I want my W to come home by so-and-so month' or 'I want my W to put effort into salvaging our marriage'. I having a lot of difficulty understanding this and not because I am trying to control the situation or my W... rather the book and the advice being given here seem to be in opposition. I'm not here to argue - I'm here to learn... but I'll definitely ask questions when things don't make sense to me.
You'll notice as I refined my list, I drifted AWAY from things I could change myself and into the realm of what I truly wanted in my marriage. This seemed to be exactly what DR was guiding me to do and I was absolutely not doing this in an attempt to control the situation (I am simply stating my wants and the small signs that will tell me they could be coming, not stating how I am going to get them).
My first attempt at the list was much better for short-term self-improvement goals - but isn't step 2 all about defining the BIG goals that you strive for to create a potentially encouraging path to follow (avoiding nebulous adjectives and finding milestones or even mile-'pebbles' to look for)?
Step 3 talks about how to communicate these wants with the W. In other words, step 3 seems to be about learning to be assertive. I stopped midway through step 3 as I really wanted to discuss step 2-3 on here, first.
(Given the responses on here, I strongly suspect that the latter half of step 3 or further steps will focus on teaching me that despite me wanting my goals in step 2, I'll be working on myself and learning that whether or not goals of step 2 are accomplished... it doesn't matter in the end).
Originally Posted by petri
And I did not see the controlling part in your "fault" list...honestyhonestyhonesty. There is no way around it.
My anxiety reflex is to try to control the situation and make it more predictable. Generally speaking, I really don't feel as if I'm very controlling when things are calm. I go to work, don't have a constant need to know where my W was, what she was doing, etc. Last minute major changes to schedules, unexpected changes at home, etc. are what trigger my anxiety which then turns into damage mitigation (i.e. try to gain some control). My attempts to control things are directly proportional to stress - for example:
Scenario 1 - W rearranges a room in the home while I'm working. When I get home, this surprise causes a little stress to me and might ask her kindly to just give me a heads-up so it's less of a surprise to me next time. A simple text from her stating 'I'm rearranging this room today' would have me replying 'great! I can't wait to see what you do with it when I get home!'. In either case, I have zero desire to move things back to the way they were previously, but if I had to do some soul-searching, I'd say I'm probably a little scarred from surprises in general.
Scenario 2 - I come home and W and D are gone. E-mail in my inbox stating the marriage is over and everything I thought I knew when I left for work that morning was wrong. Full-blown control the situation mode. This is where I need serious work. I don't think anyone in this situation would be sitting there immediately saying 'this is fine... no matter how it turns out, I'll be fine', but I obviously can find great improvement in this area.
So yes - my desire to control the situation rather than simply control myself under stress is definitely a fault of mine! I absolutely do NOT deny that. In college, I would often get a ton of coursework dumped on me all at one time. This caused me a great deal of anxiety until I sat down for 15 minutes and created a schedule. Is that type of behavior unhealthy? If not, where is the line?
Originally Posted by Steve85
lumis, go back and read those 3 again. I am feeling more desire to control...HER.
Those 3 are what you want FROM HER. This is focusing on her, not on yourself.
And while those are nice things to want, you have no way to make those things happen. When will she show you she values the marriage? When will she forgive you? When will she honor her commitments to you? That is an easy answer: When SHE decides to do it.
I want to clarify something here. Are you recommending things that I will be covering as I continue the DR steps as I briefly mentioned earlier? I strongly suspect that the book will be guiding me in the same direction that you are, but I am only in step 2-3 in my reading. I am going into this with a step 1 mind-set by taking it extremely slow and making sure I'm understanding the purpose of each step. In that sense, I firmly believe my goals align with step 2 of DR. I'm still building my 'foundation' here - it sounds like your recommendations are the 'framing' that may soon follow in step 4+.
Originally Posted by Steve85
You have to view it as if she is gone and NOT coming back. This is why you go out and double-down on GAL. This is why work hard to detach from her (read the detachment thread, this one is important). This is why you identify your poor behavior, 180 on those, and really use this gift you've been given to improve yourself!
I struggle here. She is predominately absent in my day-by-day view of life right now. She did text me first thing this morning with a picture of my D and we exchanged a few polite words 'how did you sleep? etc.'; it is strange because she initiates the contact, and then has a cold or no reply. It's almost like bait for me to slip and say something dumb but I've been doing a better job of NOT doing anything of the sort (avoiding ALL relationship talk, saying 'I miss my family', or anything of the sort).
I am trying to avoid thinking of the black/white end-results of 'she will come back and reconcile' or 'she will file for divorce' and simply exist in the moment. The jarring surprise of waking up, rolling over and putting my arm around nothing is absolutely an rotten feeling, but acceptance as the day goes on is easier.
Originally Posted by petri
Lumis. This right here is your first goal. Your first baby step. Steve is one of THE TOP MEN here. If he says something, you need to listen. You could also do some further reading on Nice Guy Syndrome. Something about this is telling me to bring this up. Not sure but it won't hurt either.
I've been in the friend-zone before but Nice Guy Syndrome certainly doesn't ring-true to me. I am feeling pain at a broken, freely-given commitment - not some unspoken contract that weighs 8 years of our actions against each other. We don't owe each other anything.
lumis, perhaps you are right. It has been a while since I read the book. I am guessing that this is MWD's section for getting out what you want from your marriage and W, before she turns to having the reader take a long look at themselves. So I will give you a pass on this for now. It was just after reading your first few posts, and then seeing this list, it appeared that you were still in a "I must control her" mindset. We all struggle with that mindset at first. So some of us are quick to jump on that.
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I struggle here. She is predominately absent in my day-by-day view of life right now. She did text me first thing this morning with a picture of my D and we exchanged a few polite words 'how did you sleep? etc.'; it is strange because she initiates the contact, and then has a cold or no reply. It's almost like bait for me to slip and say something dumb but I've been doing a better job of NOT doing anything of the sort (avoiding ALL relationship talk, saying 'I miss my family', or anything of the sort).
I am trying to avoid thinking of the black/white end-results of 'she will come back and reconcile' or 'she will file for divorce' and simply exist in the moment. The jarring surprise of waking up, rolling over and putting my arm around nothing is absolutely an rotten feeling, but acceptance as the day goes on is easier.
The general rule should be for you to NOT respond unless it is a direct question. And then answer in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. More than likely she is keeping you on the hook (thus the contact initiating but then going cold or no reply) because you make her feel safe as her back-up plan. We refer to as being Plan B. No one wants to be Plan B. So don't be. Sometimes removing yourself as Plan B will get the WAW to consider moving you back p to Plan A....just don't count on it. NO EXPECTATIONS!
I like the attitude of living in the moment. That is good. But you still need to account for what you do each moment. Stay busy. The posters that struggle the most are the ones that sit idly and stew. Read a poster named OrangeK's threads and you will see a bad example of this. Guy had a million excuses for not GAL and to this day he still suffers from over attachment to his now exwife. Doing the work we suggest will prepare you well for the next phase of your life, whether that means your MR ends or not. Detachment becomes easier if you stay busy. So get out there and GAL!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
You can if it's out of Michele's books. These are her forums
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but a review of step 2 in the book definitely gives examples stating things like 'I want my W to come home by so-and-so month' or 'I want my W to put effort into salvaging our marriage'. I having a lot of difficulty understanding this and not because I am trying to control the situation or my W... rather the book and the advice being given here seem to be in opposition. I'm not here to argue - I'm here to learn... but I'll definitely ask questions when things don't make sense to me.
We all want those things and set those things as goals early on. Unfortunately those are things we have zero control over. Our personal goals really need to be over what we CAN control, such as weight loss, improving appearance, learning something new, volunteering, eating better, exercising, improving our parenting skills, picking up a new hobby, etc. THOSE things can and will eventually affect our WAS's perception of us and hopefully lead to them wanting to come home, or wanting to salvage the marriage. So the book versus the advice here is not necessarily in opposition, it's just a clarification of how you get there.
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You'll notice as I refined my list, I drifted AWAY from things I could change myself and into the realm of what I truly wanted in my marriage. This seemed to be exactly what DR was guiding me to do and I was absolutely not doing this in an attempt to control the situation (I am simply stating my wants and the small signs that will tell me they could be coming, not stating how I am going to get them).
And I think that's fine. Perhaps it would help to come up with a list of personal goals, and a list of what you hope those goals will achieve. The former you can directly control, the latter you cannot -control- but you can -influence- via the first list. Make sense?
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Step 3 talks about how to communicate these wants with the W. In other words, step 3 seems to be about learning to be assertive. I stopped midway through step 3 as I really wanted to discuss step 2-3 on here, first.
You communicate through actions, not words. WAS's feel like the LBS has been giving them lip service for months or years but not following through. So if you hit her up with a list of your changes, she's not going to believe it. Even when you start showing her changes she won't believe it's real. She may even get angry, saying it's "too little too late" or such. You have to stick with your changes over a long period of time before she'll really believe it.
Okay, real talk for a moment... and stick with this one to the end - the middle of last week my W borrowed $100 in order to buy supplies for her job. She promised to pay it back that evening. She didn't, but I didn't push the issue as she was spending time over the weekend with her friends and then there was the planned move-out on Sunday evening.
I asked her about it last night via text message and she stated she would transfer it over that evening... and didn't. Mentioned it this morning between the other texts she sent and she just avoided the topic entirely.
Over my lunch, I said "[I'm] on lunch and was gonna go to the bank, can you complete that transfer so I can put the cash you borrowed back?"
I'm not trying to hound her here, it's just that the cash she was given was actually set aside to cover a large bill that is going to be sitting in my lap any day now (she was aware of this when she asked for the cash).
She replied:
"Hey honey! Sorry I wasn't ignoring you. I had my phone charging upstairs. [long explanation about money and options for getting it to me] Let me know."
Then:
"I'm sorry I haven't texted much I've just been in such a funk. Trying to just process life."
So this probably wouldn't be a red-flag for anyone else... but this is not at all how my wife normally talks. These texts are... weird to me.
I did not mention it in my first post, but when my wife left and subsequently returned at the end of the polyamory stuff (when she had two EA), she confided in me that she was glad she returned, had planned to take her own life, and was trying to cut ties beforehand by leaving me. The way that departure took place was her leaving me over text message as my plane touched down after a two-week business trip in Asia (very impersonal, out of the blue, etc. - similar to e-mailing me earlier in June).
I have later brought this confession up to her and she claims to not remember it. I've never forgotten - she seemed dead serious when she told me in tears.
She has been known to self-harm, but to the best of my knowledge, she has never made an attempt on her own life. The text regarding the 'funk' and 'processing life' is nagging me and I really do not know if I should take any action here. She will be dropping our D off at our home this evening, and then she will be alone or with her parents for two nights.
I am absolutely not trying to control her, but my radar of something being 'off' is going crazy after reading that, and frankly, it worries me - what is a reasonable course of action here? Maybe a text to her father (the more level-headed of the parents) stating 'please ensure [W's name] has support on days when our D is with me and she is alone - I am worried about her and hope I'm worried about nothing'?
Wolf, if your alarm bells are going off and you feel her dad may take you seriously, I would. For me, saving a life trumps getting a spouse back, and a suicidal spouse can be a danger to your child.
After I D'd my ex-wife, she went off meds. Her doctor called me sometimes to keep tabs. While I wasn't my ex-wife's keeper, I also had some interest in not seeing her spiral too far.
I kept the alternative of CPS and taking full custody in mind.
lumis, I've dealt with suicide and attempted suicide. Here's the thing, if someone wants to take their own life or try to, they are going to do it. Nothing you can do to stop it. However, I will say that this is you focusing on her, again. And this is you trying to control what you can't control, again.
So just consider that before acting. Remember, you've been fired as her husband. Be a father now, to your child. She's not your responsibility.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
lumis, I've dealt with suicide and attempted suicide. Here's the thing, if someone wants to take their own life or try to, they are going to do it. Nothing you can do to stop it. However, I will say that this is you focusing on her, again. And this is you trying to control what you can't control, again.
So just consider that before acting. Remember, you've been fired as her husband. Be a father now, to your child. She's not your responsibility.
I fully agree with you re: if someone wants to do it, they'll do it. I have personally dealt with the suicide of three friends in my life... thankfully none too close to me, but I digress. It's never easy.
I will hold tight for now - I wanted to wait for a few replies to let some of the stress settle for me, and it has. I still have some concern, but I'll just remain vigilant for any other red flags before contacting her father. She is not my responsibility, but I obviously still care. If the worst possible thing happened at this point and I hadn't even fired a text off to her father, I know I would have a hard time with it.
Thank you for the replies on this. If any further alarms start ringing, her dad would absolutely take me seriously and would likely keep it in confidence.
Got back into the DR book and realized that if I had read 2 paragraphs further, my questions would have been answered there. Michele essentially says that if you're already separated, steps 1-3 are for future reference and shouldn't really necessarily be applied as they could add fuel to the fire.
W has been back and forth over the last few days over text. I have been letting her make the majority of the effort with regards to contact while I've been spending time with friends and just trying to not stress about the future.
A friend's W told me something (or rather a couple of things) that made a lot of sense - my W is someone who is balling all her stress and negativity up right now and using me as a scapegoat (or a punching bag), which forces her to push me away. When she is alone and her problems still exist, she seeks to pull me back to avoid dealing with them. She also explained that she saw me as a 'fixer' who would continue to work on a project, even if it never had an end. She has a background in psychology and these were certainly things I've been putting thought into over the last few days.
Went to counseling today. We were somewhat all over the place, but we began by me venting my frustrations that my W has left me with a few major responsibilities, such as her cat, without asking if I would be willing to take care of them for her during this separation. After that, I brought up more frustrations that she has defined a child care schedule that she wants to stick to... until she wants a long weekend and tries to change it last minute (calling it a compromise). Makes it really difficult to GAL though I'm getting better at getting out with my D and just GAL through parenting time.
We also talked quite a bit about my empathy (one of my weaker skills), her frustrations with me during her pregnancy, etc. It was something of a rocky one, today.
I've calmed down quite a bit and I'm trying to take it day-by-day. I am focusing on what I have and remaining as positive about it as possible, while trying to avoid thinking about what is missing and making myself miserable.
I've had a few good days over the weekend followed by a pretty rough morning.
August 3rd was my D's birthday and my W and I agreed to do a family day for her. My W was somewhat physical, off and on, throughout the day. Her mood was up and down also. She indicated that for the third week in a row, she was having lady issues for the third time back-to-back... to say she has issues with hormonal birth control is a serious understatement. Not a scapegoat, but it would be naive to pretend her mood was not being affected. The day was tense, but overall positive. I have been very good at ONLY reciprocating the 'I miss you' and 'I love you' statements rather than saying them first. Physical touch, I'm still working on it - she is making it challenging as she initiates, then at a certain point will say 'okay, this is feeling weird'. Trying my best to follow the last resort techniques but I'm hitting so many challenges (i.e. if she says 'I love you', I am returning it... I assume that is okay?).
Sunday, I had my D all day. We started off the morning with church, followed by a day trip to a local event at a racetrack. My D was a little tired and it was pretty warm, but we had a good time! We picked up some groceries on the way home, then she napped until my W arrived to pick her up. My W hung out a bit and seemed fairly level-headed. At one point, she asked if I would like a kiss and I told her I certainly wouldn't turn it down. Her and my D left, and she said 'we love you!' as she was leaving. I almost skipped the
Through all of this, I have been texting minimally - sticking to replies or *maybe* one text a day. I asked her on Sunday morning if she had blocked me from her shared calendar as it had disappeared from my phone. She said she did, but not for a specific reason other than to have more space. I said it was fine, and that I had no issues with it... just that I had relied on her schedule to see things like my D's doctor appointments, etc. I was very reassuring to her that it was not a problem and I was only checking to see if it had the sharing permissions revoked by mistake.
She texted in the evening on Sunday stating that my D was having a tough time sleeping, stressing her out, and that my W's mother was also stressing her out by offering unsolicited parenting advice. I told her I was sorry, and 'other than reminding you you're a good mother and can come home whenever you're ready, I don't know how I can help'. She thanked me.
Today, I went to work as normal and went back home for lunch. My W asked over text how my day was in the morning, and I just mentioned that work stress was pretty high today. While I was home for lunch, my W randomly showed up looking for a laptop charger and acting extremely angry/aggressive towards me when she couldn't find it. She was raising her voice, yelling, etc. and telling me how bad of a day she was having. I said I was sorry she was stressed and she started grasping at straws on things to throw out:
W: being in this house makes me anxious... I'm jealous you have so much space and I have so little at my parents Me: you are welcome to return home at any time
W: I came home to console you because I knew you were having a bad day and I f*ed it up Me: you didn't mess anything up, and I'm glad I was able to see you
W: I don't want to move back in here Me: I'm not asking you to move back right now... W: I don't know if I ever will want to move back in here Me: yes, I understand that
(I had purchased a car over the weekend as my daily driver finally gave up the ghost) W: you bought yourself this nice new car and you should have bought it while I was still here... I'm so jealous you bought yourself a motorcycle to commute and gave me the old beater! Me: I discussed the purchase of the motorcycle (a little fuel-efficient scooter...) with you before I purchased it W: yeah, but you didn't tell me how bad the Civic was... Me: the Civic got significantly worse with the Summer heat after you started driving it - the plan all along was to replace it, but we were not in a financially stable enough position to do it, and at the time, it was a fully functional car; I also made sure to ask your input on the purchase of the new (to me) Subaru because I felt there was potential that you would be driving it
Me: I'm sorry you're having a bad day, I didn't cause it, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take our your anger on me W: (completely yelling at this point) I don't like who I am around you, I never got this mad or raised my voice before I dated you
She threw out a few other go-to things, like I'm manipulating her, she doesn't trust me, etc.
For what it's worth, she always loses her cool, big time, when she loses something around the house. This isn't an excuse for her to treat me like a punching bag. I made multiple attempts to leave the house and go back to work and she just kept saying things like "I'm leaving soon anyhow, so you don't need to go"... and then she'd proceed to keep the argument going. Ultimately, she left mad, saying she didn't even want to go in to work anymore.
Trying to calm myself at work now; I was doing pretty well, and this certainly challenged my mood given I was already dealing with work stress.
I almost skipped the event at the race track but stuck it out in order to GAL. Felt pretty good about Sunday overall, despite getting bored at the event and leaving 40 minutes in. The whole idea of GAL is tough for me because I'm really something of a homebody. Before I was married, I spent a lot of time with friends, even just sitting around their home. Now, most of them are married or have kids or are just too busy with life. Beyond that, I'd go out for dinner or happy hour with my W or friends. Trying to really avoid bars and limit myself to a beer or less a night right now so those aren't very appealing ideas at the moment.
