Persistent Endurance (Part 5)

[curtis7]

You're firmly in the friendzone with her. Emotional support when she needs it, nothing to her when she doesn't need it. It's interesting that you said you feel like you got duped, I think you did too, but not by her. Her actions are very consistent and predictable for a WAS. You were duped by your own feelings and expectations.

AS, very astute observation. You’ve been following my sitch from the beginning and I’ve had so few positives with WW to latch onto, just one kick in the balls after another. Providing her with emotional support and all the text convo really raised my spirits and made feel like we were connecting. I had not talked or communicated with her that much since before she moved out. It gave me a new hope. The LBS when scorned for so long has a tendency to jump at any perceived improvement in the R and say this is it, this is the turning point, the WAS is starting to warm up. Unfortunately it’s still about them and their selfishness, improved behavior must be demonstrated over a long period of time to believe it’s real.

This is the day 2 of her returning to low contact. Tonight she had a good excuse as she went to visit and is staying over with her recently widowed friend. We’ll see what tomorrow brings. W has the kids this weekend and it’s D4 soon to be D5’s birthday. I plan to make that very special for my sweet little girl.

[LH19]

C,

You can't connect with a woman who is actively sleep with other men. You are not her therapist you are her husband. What you are doing right now is actually lowering your chances of ever having a romantic relationship with her again. I think it's time to revisit your boundaries because right now you have none.

[curtis7]

You see her as coming out of the tunnel? Based on what? Her words?

Yes, based mostly on her words along with her tears (an action). I know...can’t believe what she says. Her facial expressions, tone, and body language were a 180 from how I’ve seen her since WW began. I saw guilt for not being there for her friend and shame for herself for not following the moral code she thought she lived by. Now I probably read too much into that thinking it was about more than just her friend but also about what her choices have done to our MR. I felt she was finally able to see the damage she’s caused and the destruction in her wake.

Think about the lighthouse's job. It shines a beam of light. It doesn't wade out into the stormy waters to pull the sailor to shore. It firmly stands on solid ground and shines light. It's up to the sailor to follow the light to safety.

Point taken. The lighthouse is a fixed object. I thought I could be the lighthouse keeper. He’s mobile and can take his boat out to the sailor and say hey there are dangerous rocks over that way, but if you look this way through the fog you’ll see a beaming light. It’s the path to travel that leads you out of the storm to safe refuge.

I think your idea of "gently guiding her" is you trying to help her, and you are using these analogies. It sounds like the right thing to do to the ears of a LBH, however, it doesn't work like you see it. She has to figure it out on her own. You can't fix her, and I think that's what you are really wanting to do. ((hugs))

Yeah, I do want to help her. Waiting for her to figure it out on her own is the hard part. The LBH sees many simple solutions and just wants to shout, hey W why can’t you see, the answer is there, right in front of you!

Whenever the LBH thinks his W is trying to get closer by more talking, or offering to do help with certain responsibilities or chores.......it seems to be a somewhat dangerous territory. By that, I mean that he lets down his guard b/c he wants to believe she is trying to work through her issues or whatever. Actually, he is scared to death to not let her do whatever it is she has mentioned, b/c he fears it's the one time she may have a breakthrough........realization, start coming out of the fog, or whatever. The lines he has drawn begins to blur, b/c he's spending too much time letting her talk/text him, letting her come around the house, etc. First thing he knows, she has slithered under the door like a snake, and has done none of the necessary work. Guess what? That's what she is doing now............slithering. This is JMHO.

I can see your POV. I recognize this is what I’m feeling. It’s like a delicate balance walking a tightrope where I want to be open to this newfound motivation and if I deny the advances, then she’ll be scared off and slither away. I see that she has an enormous amount of work to do before I can let her in the door. I’m am clearly struggling with tough love in this emotional time for her with her friend becoming recently widowed. I can’t bring myself to pile that on her now as well with the stress and pain she is experiencing.

Other than her one horse, are there any more horses or animals in the barn? See, you should have either had her to do all the chores connected to the upkeep of the horse.......or removed the horse from the property (unless there is a law the forbids it.) However, you were too soft-hearted when it came to her and the horse, so there were no clear cut lines about her having to take care of the responsibilities of the horse. You would say something, but there were no consequences, so if she didn't want to drive out there to take care of it, then she didn't. Now......she is begging you to let her go so far as to cut the pasture. Are there any other animals, or just the one horse?

There are two other horses on our property and in the barn right now. One is a neighbors that we’re taking care of while he is gone for the summer. The other is a boarder that pays monthly. Here is the truth on the arrangement, I feed all of the horses in the morning, then she comes over in the evenings to feed the horses and clean the stalls. The other two horses weren’t there yet when she moved out in early April. That is when I failed to say you fired me as your husband so I’m not going to assist with the chores for your horse. Now, I’ve been doing them for 4 months and it seems like the only way to stop is to give her the ultimatum and initiate the D process.

Here is where it gets worse, she would send me a text in the evening about 3-4 times a month asking if I could feed the horses that night. She would use some excuse like she is meeting some friends from work or visiting divorced BFF or working on a project at her house. Of course, I always said yes. I come to find out that almost every time she was going to see one of her OM on those nights. It sickens me that I enabled her cheating.

The horse (and swimming pool) have been her main reasons for coming to the house, since the separation. You knew this, and I think it's why you were so reluctant to draw hard lines about the horse. You were afraid she would no longer come at all, and you weren't emotionally ready. So now, you are faced with this situation of her wanting to jump in and "help more". It would have been easier if you had had a firm understanding about the horse when she first left. See what I mean?

I do, it muddied the waters on separation from the beginning. She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.

I don't think she's ready to stick to anything on a regular basis, but rather everything will rely on her mood at that moment. If it inconveniences everyone else, that's too bad. She is wishy-washy and that's why you have to be wise and strongly planted in what is right & wrong. Otherwise, she's going to break your heart over & over again. One day she may want you to listen to her talk for hours. She may even suggest that the family go together and do this or that, but then she lets you & the kids down b/c something else distracted her attention.

This ^^^^^ the emotional roller coaster. It breeds false hope. So frustrating waiting, wondering, and hoping the good mood stays consistently. It is a battle of will and perseverance.

Don't let her recent talks mislead you. I think having these long talk/texts play tricks on your heart. It pulls you in, and you become more emotionally attached. How about you limit how much you respond? I mean, you mentally put a time limit on these conversations. After 15 - 20 minutes, you have to go. You stop texting. You are involved in a project, a movie, book, hobby, or something other than using your time to respond to every text message from her. Don't be available all the time. Right now, you cannot think about gently guiding her back, b/c it messes with your head. It's a game you are playing with yourself.

Good idea on limiting the length of the talk/texts interactions. Helps with attraction to be less available and having something else to go do. Also limits the amount of my attachment. It’s not a problem right now because she’s dropped contact again the past 2 days, but I’ll remember this the next time she reaches out to me for emotional support.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted by sandi2
You see her as coming out of the tunnel? Based on what? Her words?

Yes, based mostly on her words along with her tears (an action). I know...can’t believe what she says. Her facial expressions, tone, and body language were a 180 from how I’ve seen her since WW began. I saw guilt for not being there for her friend and shame for herself for not following the moral code she thought she lived by. Now I probably read too much into that thinking it was about more than just her friend but also about what her choices have done to our MR. I felt she was finally able to see the damage she’s caused and the destruction in her wake.

I think you read way too much into thinking it was about more than just her own feelings tied to what happened to her friend. It had nothing to do with you. And I would not consider these tears as her doing action. She was having a pity party and wanted you to tell her what she wanted to hear, b/c she felt guilty for not being there for her friend.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Think about the lighthouse's job. It shines a beam of light. It doesn't wade out into the stormy waters to pull the sailor to shore. It firmly stands on solid ground and shines light. It's up to the sailor to follow the light to safety.

Point taken. The lighthouse is a fixed object. I thought I could be the lighthouse keeper. He’s mobile and can take his boat out to the sailor and say hey there are dangerous rocks over that way, but if you look this way through the fog you’ll see a beaming light. It’s the path to travel that leads you out of the storm to safe refuge.

Well, it sounds good on paper, except she won't listen to his warnings, especially when it's her LBH. It's part of the complexity of the WW. She would see it as pressure and pursuit.

Yeah, I do want to help her. Waiting for her to figure it out on her own is the hard part. The LBH sees many simple solutions and just wants to shout, hey W why can’t you see, the answer is there, right in front of you!

You don't understand why she can't see the obvious, but you think you can open her eyes? Curtis, your simple solutions involve talking her back. In reality, those type solutions are pursuit. And pursuit doesn't work. It is applying emotional pressure to her. That pressure makes her run. We have told you this from the beginning, but you haven't accepted it. You still want to do what doesn't work.

I can see your POV. I recognize this is what I’m feeling. It’s like a delicate balance walking a tightrope where I want to be open to this newfound motivation and if I deny the advances, then she’ll be scared off and slither away.

What newfound motivation? Are you referring to her wanting to cut the pasture and take the kids to camp? That won't last. She's reacting to emotions.

Look, you have been scared to death you'll lose her since day one. You just find a new color paper to wrap up your excuses for not following DB. Detach, GAL, & 180. DBing is not what scares her off.

I’m am clearly struggling with tough love in this emotional time for her with her friend becoming recently widowed. I can’t bring myself to pile that on her now as well with the stress and pain she is experiencing.

And next week or next month it will be something else. IMHO, this would have been an opportunity for her to see that the H she fired is no longer available to hear her sob over not being there when her BFF needed her. But you can't do it, can you? You would see that action as being cruel. In fact, you see any tough love as cruel. This is why you end up enabling her, and why the cycle continues.

She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.

So why didn't you? This is an example of what I mean by you enabling her and the cycle continuing. Your life becomes more complicated b/c you don't have effective personal boundaries. You are at her mercy, as long as you continue to enable her. She won't do the necessary work, b/c she doesn't have to, when you are there to enable her.

[curtis7]

You don't understand why she can't see the obvious, but you think you can open her eyes? Curtis, your simple solutions involve talking her back. In reality, those type solutions are pursuit. And pursuit doesn't work. It is applying emotional pressure to her. That pressure makes her run. We have told you this from the beginning, but you haven't accepted it. You still want to do what doesn't work.

I have been told from the beginning and I’ve taken it to heart. I recognize I want to do what doesn’t work, but I’ve refrained from doing what doesn't work for a while now. I am a fixer and have a desire to step in and help her; however, I know she needs to fix herself, on her own if there is any chance of lasting R.

What newfound motivation? Are you referring to her wanting to cut the pasture and take the kids to camp? That won't last. She's reacting to emotions.

Perhaps it won’t last. Experience with other stories says it won’t. Only time will tell. I can sense that she is thinking differently, but I’m not going to get my hopes up too high until if and when she shows true remorse and consistent actions that prove her commitment to me.

Look, you have been scared to death you'll lose her since day one. You just find a new color paper to wrap up your excuses for not following DB. Detach, GAL, & 180. DBing is not what scares her off.

Actually, I’m not so scared to lose her anymore. Haven’t been since my amazing vacation with the kids in June. Detachment is a work in progress, but GAL and 180s are going well. I know I’ll be just fine on my own. I also know that I will meet someone else if this ends in D. After all, I am AMOAFWL.

And next week or next month it will be something else. IMHO, this would have been an opportunity for her to see that the H she fired is no longer available to hear her sob over not being there when her BFF needed her. But you can't do it, can you? You would see that action as being cruel. In fact, you see any tough love as cruel. This is why you end up enabling her, and why the cycle continues.

You make a valid point. I do see some aspects of tough love as being cruel. I feel like I missed several opportunities earlier in my sitch to apply tough love. Now I’ve backed myself into a corner and it’s either too late or would be ineffective to apply tough love. For example, I did pack her remaining clothes and place them in the garage in early May after I tried to enforce the no open marriage boundary. It was too late as she had already moved out.

She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.

So why didn't you? This is an example of what I mean by you enabling her and the cycle continuing. Your life becomes more complicated b/c you don't have effective personal boundaries. You are at her mercy, as long as you continue to enable her. She won't do the necessary work, b/c she doesn't have to, when you are there to enable her.

I didn’t because of the tragic death of her friend’s H and W’s change in behavior in response. I have decided to trust my gut on this one for a little while and observe how it plays out. It is an excuse and it’s certainly not the first I’ve used. I’m not going to get involved or pursue, but rather sit back and see if she starts pursuing me. If it doesn’t amount to anything in the next few weeks, I haven’t lost much, only additional time being married. Then I plan to continue down my path of moving forward without her.

[curtis7]

W has the kids this weekend and texted saying they were coming over to feed the horses and that we needed to tell the kids about friend’s H’s death. I was mowing the lawn when they arrived and W started asking me about wiring an outlet in her house for an over the range microwave. I gave her some advice because I don’t want the place to have an electrical fire with my kids inside. W said the microwave project was the one thing she was wanting to finish. Does that mean she is ready to come back afterwards? Doubtful.

W called me “honey” on her way to the barn. First time I heard her refer to me with that word since January. Can’t remember the exact context, but probably just a natural reaction, didn’t give it much stock.

I finished mowing, then went in the house with W. We sat the kids down in the living room. W then went to get Windex out of the closet, came back, and cleaned the coffee table and end table glass. She didn’t say anything, just did it. Very weird, guess I’m slipping with keeping up with the chores.

I took the lead on telling the kids about the motorcycle accident. I told them very directly what happened to him and that he was dead. I let them know how important it is that we are there for our friends right now. It didn’t seem to bother either of them at all. W attempted to help them understand by saying “Just think how you would feel if dad died tomorrow.”

^^^^^^^ That last statement right there is the key and why I feel her eyes have been opened. It ties things together for me and why I’ve been speculating that she is starting to realize the damage that she’s caused. I believe that she has given serious thought to losing me fully and what life would be like without me, especially if I were gone in an instant. It just may be the catalyst that starts her off on the long road home.

W and I talked about her widowed friend’s relationship with her deceased H and how it was described negatively by the W, but positively by friends of the H. We agreed that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. My W said “There are two sides to every situation and there is fault on both sides. Just like ours. But ours isn’t out in the open for everybody to comment on.”

I went out to the car to say goodbye to the kids and W showed me all the school clothes she bought for them. I complimented her on the selections. Then she said “Curtis, thank you.” I asked for what and she replied “For telling the kids about the death.” I said your welcome and goodbye.

I’ve noticed that W has been very careful around me since the death of friend’s H. It’s almost like she’s trying extra hard not to offend me over anything. It is different behavior and I’m not sure what to make of it yet.

[LH19]

Sorry C I'm not buying any of it. More excuses to put up with the bs. The coffee table cleaning is just more disrespect.

Interesting that with everything she has put you and your family through you think tough love is cruel.

Read Sandi's response over and over until sinks in because until it does you are cementing yourself into the permanent FZ.

[MrBrside]

Curtis,

Your WW is acting on emotion. The respect for you is gone and her desire for the marriage is no longer there.

Your WW is throwing your crumbs, but you are so desperate to make this work, you see them as a 4 course meal.

You spent hours looking at old sitchs and preparing a speech to the WW. The problem is that you cherry picked the scenarios that saw a positive impact but ignored the factors involved ( ie timings / factors differed from yours etc ) , which would mean this wouldn’t work in your sitch.

Your keep saying your need to fight for the marriage. You are fighting but losing 2 other things.. Respect and your day to day life. Life is short, so make the most of it. GAL, move on and focus on you / your new family. It is clear from the posts you refuse to drop the rope. You have mentioned in numerous posts about fighting for the marriage. If you need to prove it to your kids, print these forum posts off.. They show you were 100% committed. Nobody can expect you to carry on forever.

You mention your son wanting you to fight for the marriage. So let me ask you this question. If your son was being bullied at school - What would you tell your son to do ? I suspect your would tell your son to stand up for himself.. Bullies generally back away when challenged.. They lose their control and actually ( in a weird way ) respect their victim. Your wife is effectively bullying you, yet you let it happen... That’s like the child who hangs around with the bully hoping that if he takes enough abuse, the bully will start to like him and find somebody else to pickup. But they will always be seen as weak by the bully – and there is certainly no respect, by the bully or the others that see it. You are in danger of becoming that child how hangs around with a bully just to try and be accepted… Your WW / kids will see this – But do you think it gains their respect ?

You think your WW is coming out of the fog because of a few crumbs. I think you are overlooking all the negatives, just to cling onto hope with one or two positives.

One thing I think is often overlooked in a lot of sitchs is also the OW – or divorced female friend / generally female friends. Women are more influenced by their friends than males are. Her divorced female friend has a massive influence on her thoughts and emotions. Divorced female friend will be acting in her own best interests, keeping her new GGW buddy available. Do you really think divorced female friend is fighting for your corner / your marriage. Your WW is not only fighting her own demons, but she has this little devil is sitting on her shoulder whispering nasties in her ear.

I saw this in my personal sitch – I discovered EA1 exactly a year today ( time flies ) – On the night in question ( i.e. last night 1 year ago ) her best mate encouraged her to stay out with EA1, instead of catching her taxi and even text her “Shag him”. Once I discovered EA1 my WW was distraught and spent 4 days trying to do everything to reconcile. She requested copies of the messages she sent to her mate ( they were deleted off her phone ) to prove there was no physical contact, stopped replying to the guy and allowed me to run a deleted message scan on her phone. She wanted counselling and was generally upset about her actions. Four days later she went with a drink with her best mate.. She came home with a different attitude. After a 2 hour chat with her mate, the EA1 was my fault because I was making her unhappy, EA1 wasn’t an affair at all and I was just jealous / controlling etc.. I should have walked away then, as although we had a good few months after this before EA2, it showed she wasn’t prepared to accept any responsibility..

My point being its not only the OM who is the problem. So even if your WW has ceased contact with OM, until she breaks away from the influence of the best mate, she will never be 100% committed ( IMO )

Finally..

I keep going on about emotion, and how it impacts on rational thought.

Your wife has thrown away her good life, future, kids, stability, you etc – because she is acting on emotion. Something happened that made her snap - In her broken world, 2 + 2 = 5 – I think you accept this, but you think you can fix it.. If this board has taught me anything, its that you can’t fix.. Or even influence them, as they are working on emotion, not rational. Your WW is broken.. You cant fix her and she doesn’t want to listen to anything you say..

But then lets come to you..

You are fortunate enough to have some excellent feed back / advice on here from the best – the Vets.. Sandi, Anotherstander, Steve85 etc

Rational people look at their feedback / advice to you and think “bang on, great advice, makes sense” .. etc

We all agree your wife is acting on emotion.. But from your replies, YOU ARE as well. All your posts show you are acting on emotion. You ask for advice, but refuse to drop the rope or follow the advice. You are hanging on thinking that you know best / your sitch is different / you can nice your wife back… or trying to justify her actions etc .… You are acting on your emotion. In the same way your WW wont listen to your advise / want to be fixed, your emotion ( I know DB is counterintuitive ) is stopping you following advice and actually moving forward or making rational decisions – and it’s been said a 1000s times.. The best way to get them back, is let them go.

[curtis7]

Sorry C I'm not buying any of it.

You guys were right. Her awakening was not sustainable. It didn’t last, she is back with the OM. Was with him the night of D5’s birthday...unbelievable.

Oh well, my hopes were up, but fortunately my expectations were low, so I’m not feeling too bad about her diving right back into WW.

My point being its not only the OM who is the problem. So even if your WW has ceased contact with OM, until she breaks away from the influence of the best mate, she will never be 100% committed ( IMO )

MrBrside, great post! I wish I had more time to respond, I’ll just comment on this part for now. The wake and funeral are over for the widowed friend’s deceased H. WW was with divorced BFF last night and it appears that has cemented my fate. She has been with my WW this entire free fall into the depths of immorality and deceit. I fully agree with you in that even if one OM went away, BFF would do her darnedest to make sure there were more OM before W considered coming back to me.

Today is 9 months post-BD. Interesting development, I scheduled L appointment today. W sent a text asking me to call her to talk about something. I didn’t call, then a short while later she texts never mind, all cleared up. I come to find out she opened a case through her legal services today and was assigned my L. Her second text was after she had a different L assigned.

So, my W and I really think alike at times, sad in this case, but uncanny. It appears we both had the same thought in mind. Perhaps the funeral we attended today was the final nail in the coffin for our MR. Once I found out she has went back to OM that did it for me. I can no longer tolerate the disrespect. He is the last one she thinks about at night and the first one she thinks about in the morning. I will not remain in a MR where I’m an afterthought.

To make things more interesting, I decided to hit send tonight on an email I drafted a couple months ago asking her to attend Retrouvaille with me. I am fully expecting a no or no response, however it gives her something to think about. Nothing left to lose at this point and if the question ever comes up with my kids I can show them that I tried up until the end.

[MrBrside]

Curtis,

I'll be blunt on this....

You are still hanging on for dear life to that rope...

Once I found out she has went back to OM that did it for me. I can no longer tolerate the disrespect. He is the last one she thinks about at night and the first one she thinks about in the morning. I will not remain in a MR where I’m an afterthought.

Then

To make things more interesting, I decided to hit send tonight on an email I drafted a couple months ago asking her to attend Retrouvaille with me.

You have just made a statment about disrespect, then go against all logic and send the email about Retroivaille... Pursuit !

I'll bring this back to the bully comparison.You have effectively said..

Right dad, i'm not going to take this any more. Today, when i see him i will stand up to him.. I will no longer tolerate this disrespect..

Then

hmmm.. I'm worried what the bully will say / do...

Right Dad before i stood up to the bully, I decided to email the bully and tell him to leave me alone as i dont like it or the way he acts.

Dad feels pity - Bully laughs has ass off - both lose repect.

You are still thinking on emotion. You are not making rational decissions. I haven't gone back through the thread, but from memory one of the Vets even states that Retrouvaille won't move forward if a partner is engaged in an affair ? Yet you still send the email.. Your words will not shake her from this ( In much the same way i feel my words to you fall on deaf ears ) - You are trying to save your marrige, i am trying to help you to save yourself - or at least make the most of the life you have...

Your marrige is gone.. It will never return as you knew it

Another comparison - When my grandad had his stroke and then went into a coma we had a choice. There was a very very very very small chance ( but virtually zero ) he could recover. But it could be months, even years.. And even then he would not be the same person he was before the stroke.

The family had a choice to make.. Allow them to stop feeding / life support or spent the next week, month, years making regular trips to the hospital.. My Grandmother would have been left in limbo..

Point i am making - its a hard decission, your emotions are working against you etc - But you need to let go...

I can't help but feel the decission to see a laywer wasnt about you wanting a divorce, but another hope that the letter may snap her out of this.. She is too far gone..

Get rid of the horse and break contact, except when kid related - If you only see her once a week etc you will make massive progress..