Don't really know where to start, so I guess I'll dive right in.
I'm 35, and my W just turned 30. We have been married 5 years and together 8. We have a toddler turning 2 in a little more than a week.
The morning of June 14th was the last moment I've felt as if my marriage wasn't teetering on the edge. Before jumping into that, I'll give some backstory of the major points of my relationship leading to this.
My W is the daughter of a minister. She has always felt that she had to put on a good public face because of this.
Prior to our relationship, my W suffered sexual trauma in the form of date rape by someone she was dating. I didn't know this until the first year into our relationship.
Our dating period had only minor hiccups, reaching a point 2 years in after 1 year of co-habitation where, out of the blue, she wanted to split up. We reconciled 24 hours later and were soon after talking about marriage. This seems to be a pattern that continues - she allows herself to reach a state of vulnerability, considers separating, and then we take the next big step in our lives after reconciliation. The steps we take have never been taken as a way of 'making things better' but rather after reconciliation, we've both felt that we've been sitting stagnant and it was simply time to push forward.
Less than one year into our marriage, she cheated on me over a window of 5-7 months. A lot. Like over a dozen PA with some other EA sprinkled in. I will save the forum the details, but her behavior was EXTREMELY destructive to herself, the relationship, and everyone involved (including OM that were themselves married). She came clean later in the evening after a day where one of the OM had been in our marital bed. The sweater unraveled slowly over the next few months; one affair turned into over a dozen.
We attended marital counseling initially, and the counselor was not very effective. W was lying through the appointments. The next counselor we saw was a specialist in sex/love addition and personally, I found her very helpful. My W felt disgusted in herself and while I had my own mountain to climb, I felt that my W's SLA was a coping response to the prior sexual trauma my wife experienced, and therefore, an illness. Sickness and health, and all that.
Side note - my W and I took SLA tests provided the counselor and I expected to see a high (bad) score for myself. What I didn't realize was that the SLA tests focused on the risks to self/others the potential addict was willing to take to get their 'fix'. As I expected, the W spiked the charts and I barely registered beyond a couple of points. The counselor suggested that my W was pursuing the OM as a way of taking back control that was taken from her in her trauma. When things got physical, she dissociated entirely, describing the situation as viewing the sexual act from a security camera above the room.
Near the end of the infidelity, my wife retreated to her parents house and wanted to end the relationship. We reconciled over a few days time of face to face discussion and time together.
Over the next 2 years, we explored a number of alternative lifestyles, such as mutually dating OW (W is bisexual) in both the emotional and physical sense. In the end, we had some fun that was in no way worth the emotional damage. My W was very damaged by seeing my emotional attraction to other women after her own fell flat in a quicker amount of time.
I'll talk about my vices a little at this point, and while they do not begin here, this just feels like a good point to talk about myself.
I have always considered myself a fairly mature person, though this allows me to get a little overconfident in myself. I have done things like tease, nag, etc. over things that don't really warrant this behavior. In 2 or 3 moments in our relationship, I've have blown my top and said some very hurtful things implying many of our issues are solely my W's fault. Generally in arguments, I am the calm one. I also had a wandering eye for a long time in the relationship; due to the bisexuality of my W and previous girlfriends, I sometimes would comment on other women to my W. Sometimes this was acceptable, but often it was not. I recognized my faults and worked on them, but I am a stubborn person, and some vices have taken a LONG time to improve upon.
At some point along the way (in these 2 years), my W opened her own business. This was a huge success for her, and shockingly, she cheated around this time again in a one-night PA. She told me within a couple of days and we worked through it. I was aware of the probability of relapse so while it was a shock, I was not hurt in the same way. We discussed the possibility that she has a tendency to 'sabotage her own happiness' during major transitional points in her life. This wasn't the first or last time we discussed this topic.
Near the end of our polyamory 'experiment', my wife again decided leave. I don't think this departure lasted more than 24 hours. When she opened up and expressed that she didn't see a future with children AND polyamory, I think she was surprised that I called off the only existing outside relationship immediately. We pushed on. Much later (I'll note it further in), I found out that she had EA with two OM around this time. They were short-lived but they did happen. There were no PA to my knowledge.
Shortly after reconciliation, my wife learned she was pregnant. She had an IUD and this was completely unexpected. I trusted her when she told me that the child was mine and there was zero possibility of any other scenario. There was some doubt, but I'll clear it up right now by saying my daughter is my twin... no question she is very much my flesh and blood.
12 weeks into the pregnancy, I had a nervous breakdown lasting 2-3 weeks. During this time I stayed with my parents and started on antidepressants. They were hell to start, but about 10 days in, they finally started leveling me out. I returned home on my pregnant W's request.
During the pregnancy, my W had morning sickness from 12 weeks until labor. I tried my best to support her, but I was battling my own insecurities and fears during this time. She looks back on this time as being very alone.
Our daughter arrived and we couldn't have been more happy. Unfortunately, I felt as if I was always playing 'catch-up' in my fatherly duties and that my W was just so much better at it than me. I wasn't a bad father, but I could have done much more in the first 12-18 months of my daughter's life. W looks back on this time as functioning as a single mother at times.
Around the time my daughter turned 1, we decided to buy a home. Days before closing, my W disclosed that the business was not doing well, and that she had the EA that was mentioned a few paragraphs above. We continued on and closed on the home.
This brings us, more or less, to a year before the present day. In this last year, we have had the following occur:
1. Our former landlord sued us for $6000 immediately after moving out. The money was being used to improve his home in order to sell it, and he was writing it off as 'damages from former tenants'. This included turning the front and back lawn of the home into a golf coarse quality landscape. We could not financially fight it, and we settled out of court to avoid further legal fees. The former landlord clearly had practiced this in the past.
2. We had another unplanned pregnancy while using an IUD. This time, we chose to terminate the pregnancy at 12 weeks and requested to not see or know the health of the child. We both will regret this decision for the rest of our lives but financially, we were weighing our current child's well-being against our unborn child. I believe that my W feels as if I convinced her to go through with this. I do not feel as if we even had a decision in the matter.
3. My W's business went bankrupt and I discovered she had been paying herself on credit for a long time. She is currently in debt over $80k and working on filing for Chapter 7.
4. I had another nervous breakdown, and emotionally lashed out at my wife one evening while coming up on my medications. I should have stayed with my parents. I said many things I regret. I blamed her for everything. I told her she needed to 'grow up'. It was bad all around.
5. The basement of our home flooded and caused $8000 in damages. The cause was a faulty weather sealing job performed by the previous owner's hired contractor. We are still in the midst of a lawsuit to try to recoup these damages (though it seems promising).
6. After my breakdown (lasting about a week this time), my wife had another EA which I discovered.
7. I personally reached out to someone online about the idea of polyamory and then presented the idea to my W within 24 hours. I came into the conversation with my W from the perspective 'if you're not interested, we can just drop it and ghost her'. To her, this was an EA that I committed.
8. My W's car blew up. The motor is completely blown and the car is dead in the water.
This brings us to a April/May of this year. My W let me know that she was considering leaving. After some discussion, we determined that my involvement as a father was the biggest driver. I stepped up my game. Big time. This has not been something I've backslid on and it has felt perfectly natural. Things seemed to be improving.
In the 2 weeks leading up to June 14th, I discussed with my individual counselor that I'd had a strange feeling that my W was socking away money, going to just up and leave suddenly, or something similar. There was just a 'fog' over the relationship despite constant reassurance, sex, etc.
The night before June 14th, my wife and I had sex, and later, she literally got out of a bath in the evening, walked all the way downstairs, and invited me into the bath with her. I asked her later in bed if something was wrong; despite all the physical connection, her mood felt off. She became very agitated (not uncommon when difficult feelings are being discussed), and we shelved it.
The morning of June 14th felt normal. I left for work and came home on my lunch as usual. I noticed her car (my old car) was there but the house seemed empty and her computer was missing. I texted her and she said to check my e-mail. The e-mail stated that she was separating, living with her (local) parents indefinitely, and wanting to end our marriage and discuss financial and child care ASAP. I was devastated and reached out to anyone I could this day.
I tried to go to the in-law's home and my MIL came out and told me I would not be allowed inside to see my daughter, my daughter would not be brought outside to see me, and I could not take my daughter home. I was told that I was abusive (later clarified as 'emotionally abusive') and that my W and the MIL did not feel safe. I called the local police to understand my rights. The PD took a report but talked me out of dispatching a welfare check as they suggested this would be seen as a power play (and my W had agreed to speak to me face-to-face later in the evening with her parents present).
I also contacted a family attorney on my bosses' advice. I received about 15 minutes of consultation discussing status quo, etc. and I understand the lawyer's position now as being a facilitator and not a counselor.
I sat down with my W that evening and we talked... a lot. I could not get a direct reason for the departure aside from 'it isn't working', 'I've been unhappy for years', etc. Pure negatives. She also voiced that her individual counselor was the one who told her to leave in this manner, send the e-mail, etc. I voiced my disapproval at her counselor's advice noting that I saw this appropriate for a woman escaping abuse... but it seemed strange here given her counselor had never seen or spoken to me (her counselor is a web-based video chat service... I have my own reservations about this, but some swear by it). We went for a walk and she had a brief moment when she said 'I thought I was totally ready to sign papers and be done today...' then stopped before she finished.
Over the next week, we lived apart and divided our parental duties roughly 50:50. I hounded her over text message. We would get emotionally exhausted face-to-face. It was terrible. I read a few self-help books, learned a LOT about myself in the evenings alone. We finally agreed to sit down and have a long talk. We agreed to the following:
1. Written/defined child-care schedule. 2. Attend 8 weeks of marital counseling. 3. No legal action during this time. 4. No romantic/sexual relationships during this time. 5. Spend Saturdays together as a family. 6. She was welcome to return home sooner than 8 weeks, if she desired. 7. Decide during out 8th session to separate, reconcile, or extend our counseling agreement.
We both agreed to this after some discussion.
During this time, she had a birth control implant removed from her arm. Within a week, she explained to me that with the implant, she felt as if she was falling out of love with me and was uncomfortable when I touched her. The reason she realized that, was that those feelings disappeared after the implant was removed.
The first counseling session was stressful... but approximately a week later, she was willing to stay the night. I urged her that in order to see my improvement, she needed to be somewhat present. We starting being physically intimate immediately.
The following three weeks were very positive. I was considering her emotions more in every decision or interaction and while it felt totally natural, she told me I seemed like a different person. She had a few moments of doubt, but was talking about things like renewing our vows in January, having another child, etc.
On July 18th, she voiced that she was struggling again, and viewing her time at her parent's house as a better living situation again. On the 21st, she doubled down on this telling me she was having major doubts and 'didn't know what was going on with her this week'. Due to the screwed up hormonal balance from the implant removal, she had two periods back-to-back with only 2-3 days in-between.
She hung out with some high school friends on the 19th. Around this time she started not wearing her ring by choice (it was being repaired through part of all of this). I asked her to wear it that evening and she later disclosed that she had taken it off in front of her friends because they didn't know she was living at home again. Along the way, she has really seemed embarrassed to tell friends/family she is trying to make things work with me again.
The night of the 21st, I was told I was smothering her, that my changes I'd made, while positive, seemed like 'BS' and that they were not sustainable. She wanted me to sleep on the couch, later allowed me to sleep in bed with a body pillow between us, and then later removed the pillow. This week has been very warm and cold... sometimes physical touch is okay, other times it sets her off.
This finally came to a head (again) on the evening of the 25th when we had a friend over, played some board games, and when the he left, literally after the door shut, she said 'we need to talk - this isn't working' and expressed that she didn't want to complete the remaining 4 weeks of counseling, wanted to call it off, sign papers, be done.
We slept in the same bed that evening and after some discussion, attended counseling in the morning. In the weeks leading up to this, the counselor had asked how we were doing and the W would immediately have a positive response (aside from week 1). Week 4 was lukewarm, but still a positive response noting that we had been having sex, etc.
She told the counselor she was done putting in work on our marriage, and just wanted to end it. The counselor made her repeat this a few times, and my W added 'I'll be the bad guy'. The counselor attempted to find an arrangement that could work for us as I really wanted to complete what we committed to. The counselor offered:
1. Stop coming to counseling completely. 2. Attend marital counseling individually for the remaining 3 weeks. 3. Attend together, while living apart, and having an open mind by omitting the black/white outcomes of permanent divorce/separation or permanent reconciliation.
My W agreed to choice 3.
We also agreed that interactions face-to-face outside of counseling would NOT include the relationship as a topic.
We are still working out our arrangements for care of our daughter but W is camping with the same high school friends from last night until Sunday afternoon, and plans to pack her things and move out that evening.
I have done a LOT of reading on this site, and will probably read half of the DR book by the end of the day tomorrow. I am trying my hardest to give her space right now through the pain. I am also trying to take care of my daughter, and keep my supportive friends/family close. I realize that friends/family will be biased but I feel like I'm losing my mind when I'm alone and not doing things like writing, reading, etc.
Any support at all is appreciated. I'm hurting right now. I still hold hope that we *CAN* get through this if she is willing, but I am trying to take it day by day and care for myself without weighing any potential future expectations higher than others.
I am trying to practice detachment, doing my 180s, and following the 37 rules. When I had 2 weeks alone (5-ish weeks back) it took a solid week to week and a half to calm myself a little. This is when she started to become more receptive. I am struggling to control myself more than I'm attempting to control the situation under times of extreme stress... but I'm doing the best I can. I just don't know what I'm even dealing with right now... W is only 30 but she hits SO many of the MLC bullet points. At the same time, she has a very WAW mentality.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Hi, welcome to the forum. Sounds as if you are dealing with a W who has very serious issues.
How old was she when she was raped? Did your W ever tell her parents about the rape? Did your W receive any psychological counseling after the rape?
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Less than one year into our marriage, she cheated on me over a window of 5-7 months. A lot. Like over a dozen PA with some other EA sprinkled in.
Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is that this is all related somehow to the rape aftermath, if the girl never received therapy.
I don't think MC is going to help at the moment. She needs a psychiatrist. She can fake out a counselor pretty easily. She got experienced in putting on a pleasant face and giving a positive response, being the D of a minister........right?
Did you know her very long before you started dating?
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The next counselor we saw was a specialist in sex/love addition and personally, I found her very helpful. My W felt disgusted in herself and while I had my own mountain to climb, I felt that my W's SLA was a coping response to the prior sexual trauma my wife experienced, and therefore, an illness. Sickness and health, and all that.
What do you mean, "I had my own mountain to climb"? Are you addicted to porn, or have you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with other women?
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Over the next 2 years, we explored a number of alternative lifestyles, such as mutually dating OW (W is bisexual) in both the emotional and physical sense. In the end, we had some fun that was in no way worth the emotional damage. My W was very damaged by seeing my emotional attraction to other women after her own fell flat in a quicker amount of time.
Okay, I'm trying to understand. Was this exploration of alternative lifestyles suppose to help your W find peace with the trauma of the rape........or was it a solution for sex addiction?
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I just don't know what I'm even dealing with right now... W is only 30 but she hits SO many of the MLC bullet points. At the same time, she has a very WAW mentality.
I finished reading your post and I am almost speechless, otherwise, I would probably write way too much. I don't think your W is a WAW. Your W needs a psychiatrist, and I'm not being shady. She has emotional/mental issues that will only get worse if she doesn't receive proper help in dealing with her rape.......which is probably the root for all her acting out.
Others will come and give their thoughts on it. IMHO, I think the MR needs to be put on hold, until she is willing to reveal the truth and stay under the care of a psychiatrist. If she does better while staying with her parents, then politely stay away and leave her alone. This situation is not going to get better long-term, until she gets better help than previously.
You said it yourself, every time she splits, she wants to reconcile and jump to some next step.........which is not a real step, and then she repeats sexual behaviors outside the M. She's still using that same pattern, so going back with her right now is not going to last......b/c she needs serious help. Trying these alternative lifestyles, etc., has damaged the MR, and it's damaged you as individuals. It's going to take a lot more than a few days at the parents to fix this mess. ((hugs))
I'll ask again, do the parents know about the rape? If so, it's important to know how they responded and what they did to get their D help.
How did she rebel as a preacher's D? Was she promiscuous before the date rape experience?
How do you deal with her chronic lying?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi, welcome to the forum. Sounds as if you are dealing with a W who has very serious issues.
How old was she when she was raped? Did your W ever tell her parents about the rape? Did your W receive any psychological counseling after the rape?
IIRC, she was 21 or just turned 22. W told her parents about the rape after the infidelity near the end of our first year of marriage. She also filed a police report. It had been too long for the DA to do anything as they said there simply wasn't enough evidence to make a case. My W has seen multiple counselors/therapists since the rape, though she didn't prioritize it early on. Some have helped, some haven't.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is that this is all related somehow to the rape aftermath, if the girl never received therapy.
I don't think MC is going to help at the moment. She needs a psychiatrist. She can fake out a counselor pretty easily. She got experienced in putting on a pleasant face and giving a positive response, being the D of a minister........right?
She is the D of a minister, yes.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Did you know her very long before you started dating?
A couple of years online via a dating site. I was in the friend zone for this time due to distance, mainly. When I completed college and my job brought me closer, we dated for a few weeks before she withdrew. This is when she started dating the guy that ultimately raped her. She returned to me a few weeks after. It was a long time before I knew about the rape.
Originally Posted by sandi2
What do you mean, "I had my own mountain to climb"? Are you addicted to porn, or have you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with other women?
Being the spouse to an addict and choosing to stay rather than leave is a mountain in and of itself, which is what I was referring to. I needed to learn to set boundaries and learn how to forgive. This took years.
I watch pornography, yes. Is it an addiction? That is tough to say... my W has been accepting of it as a form of stress relief for me, but at other times, she indicates that it hurts her. If it is something that causes her pain, I would want to stop (and would consider this working against an addiction), but the mixed signals I receive from her on this topic make it very difficult to know what is right. My definition of addiction relates to the willingness to allow your actions to hurt yourself and others.
I did make my own mistake with another woman - I'll note the details below after your next question.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Okay, I'm trying to understand. Was this exploration of alternative lifestyles suppose to help your W find peace with the trauma of the rape........or was it a solution for sex addiction?
This actually began with my wife coming to me saying she wanted to physically explore women (potentially together with me). This took place really close to when her infidelity began and may have coincided with EA or even PA taking place.
Shortly after this, I went on a camping trip with friends. One of my exes was on the trip (this wasn't known or planned in advance). She drunkenly voiced to me that she was interested in being physical with another woman... and I said that I would connect her with my W if she wanted to. We were stupid and made out. I called my W in the morning, left immediately, and told her what had happened. She confessed to kissing someone else, as well. Much, much later, I learned that there was much more she had done already in terms of PA by that point (oral sex, etc.).
The fallout of the infidelity was a very confusing time for her and I. We were already wrapped up in ethically non-monogamous actions at this time, despite wanting to leave the unethical behavior behind. Our exploration had nothing to do with the rape, nor the sexual addiction... we were young, dumb, and trying to figure out what we wanted. It did serve as a common ground for us - we enjoyed talking about the people we were seeing together, commiserating, etc. It certainly wasn't necessary or beneficial for us, long-term.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I finished reading your post and I am almost speechless, otherwise, I would probably write way too much. I don't think your W is a WAW. Your W needs a psychiatrist, and I'm not being shady. She has emotional/mental issues that will only get worse if she doesn't receive proper help in dealing with her rape.......which is probably the root for all her acting out.
Others will come and give their thoughts on it. IMHO, I think the MR needs to be put on hold, until she is willing to reveal the truth and stay under the care of a psychiatrist. If she does better while staying with her parents, then politely stay away and leave her alone. This situation is not going to get better long-term, until she gets better help than previously.
You said it yourself, every time she splits, she wants to reconcile and jump to some next step.........which is not a real step, and then she repeats sexual behaviors outside the M. She's still using that same pattern, so going back with her right now is not going to last......b/c she needs serious help. Trying these alternative lifestyles, etc., has damaged the MR, and it's damaged you as individuals. It's going to take a lot more than a few days at the parents to fix this mess. ((hugs))
I agree, though we have a 2 year old D wrapped up in this. My family is my life to me, and my W obviously had this baggage coming in. I accept her for who she is and desperately want to continue this journey with her.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I'll ask again, do the parents know about the rape? If so, it's important to know how they responded and what they did to get their D help.
They know, and they took a passive yet sympathetic approach. They generally just say 'we are always here for you' and support her in her decisions.
They also know about the infidelity, business bankruptcy, etc. though they did not know as many details as they do now. When the EA took place earlier in this year, I reached out to her father out of concern for my D and my W's ability to be a fit mother. I provided many details of our struggles in the past that he was unaware of. In my W's interactions with this OM, she sent photos of our D, including bath tub photos, etc. Nothing overtly sexual or inappropriate (beyond this being so very obviously inappropriate), nor anything that he was requesting be sent. I saw this as a HUGE, HUGE issue and called her out on it. She didn't have any ill intent, but she really had no clue who this guy was on the other side of the text/voice/etc. messaging.
Originally Posted by sandi2
How did she rebel as a preacher's D? Was she promiscuous before the date rape experience?
I wouldn't say overly promiscuous to my knowledge. She dated and performed oral sex on guys she was dating, but I was the second person she willingly had sex with. The only other guy was an ex boyfriend that verbally abused her.
Originally Posted by sandi2
How do you deal with her chronic lying?
That's a very good question and difficult to answer when worded like that. I trust her. I can't explain why, but I do trust her. I have moments of doubt and typically know when something is up (the fog around the relationship prior to the BD).
Hey there, sorry you're here. I think your first post may be longer than my first post. And I hope it is b/c then I can feel better about being long-winded, haha!
It sounds like you've been trying to put a band aid on all these problems, but the band aid is not the remedy.
[/quote]The counselor suggested that my W was pursuing the OM as a way of taking back control that was taken from her in her trauma. When things got physical, she dissociated entirely, describing the situation as viewing the sexual act from a security camera above the room.[/quote] Sounds like the young girl from the show Sharp Objects, if anyone has seen it. Crazy how us humans work.
Ultimately, she is exhibiting destructive behaviors consistently for a long time and is luring other people in. Now you have to let go and be the best you that you can be. You may lose her over all of this, but losing her is better than continuing down the road she is leading you.
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I trusted her when she told me that the child was mine and there was zero possibility of any other scenario.
Have you bounced this off anyone else? It's a highly questionable statement. I wonder if the ensuing depression and anxiety was related.
The two of you have created an environment of turmoil but there's always an explanation or it's not your fault or her fault. You need to let go of her and figure out your own issues. And if and when you do that you may want no part of her anymore. Just stop going to MC, go to IC, and do your best to get through these tough emotions. You've put up with so much disrespect it's unbelievable. This is insane and you need to have a major life change if you are not going to continue this pattern.
As for your W, I'd back off and support in whatever way you can. She needs more help as the counselors haven't been successful this far, though I don't know how much she is committed to fixing herself yet either.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Ultimately, she is exhibiting destructive behaviors consistently for a long time and is luring other people in. Now you have to let go and be the best you that you can be. You may lose her over all of this, but losing her is better than continuing down the road she is leading you.
I am trying to detach and better myself. It is difficult because it is such a shock from my normal daily routine to not simply spend time with my family.
The second BD after 3 weeks of what seemed like improvement and commitment really was not something I was expecting and I'm having a much more difficult time with all of this right now. In hindsight, I realize her talking of another child, vacations, renewing vows, etc. was a total distraction for her and fantasy. When the reality set in for her that she needed to work hard, those three 'good' weeks might as well have not existed.
Her motivation to work (in any sense) has been badly damaged and got noticeably worse around the time the business money issues all came to light. She worked very hard, and the business still failed. Mismanagement was a problem, but she DID put her blood, sweat, and tears into the company.
Regarding the willingness to put in effort - when she was here for the 3 weeks, I rarely even found that she'd close a cabinet in the kitchen or put condiments away after using them. I held my tongue, but it was like living with a child in that sense (hence my questions about MLC). The fact that she is shrugging off all possible responsibility, talking about renting a 'cute little apartment' (how?!), borrowing her parents car, living with her parents, and spending quite a bit more time with her high school friends that she has in years just all seems like she's trying to roll back the clock.
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Have you bounced this off anyone else? It's a highly questionable statement. I wonder if the ensuing depression and anxiety was related.
You might have to clarify what you mean here - I had a breakdown like clockwork 12 weeks in on the second unexpected pregnancy, as well. Never had anything like these before in my life. It certainly was clinical depression but if you're questioning that my D is my blood, there is no question in my mind. She looks exactly like me.
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The two of you have created an environment of turmoil but there's always an explanation or it's not your fault or her fault. You need to let go of her and figure out your own issues. And if and when you do that you may want no part of her anymore.
The thought has come to mind. With our child, having no part of her in my life anymore is not a viable option. I am absolutely not 'staying together for the kids' but I feel as if divorce is not the most positive option (not yet, at least). Again, I wouldn't be here on this board if I thought otherwise... that said, I'm sure my wife's behaviors would test Michelle's rare instances of recommending divorce given the recurring infidelity.
If divorce is the best option, I am hoping I can believe it before it comes to that point.
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Just stop going to MC, go to IC, and do your best to get through these tough emotions. You've put up with so much disrespect it's unbelievable. This is insane and you need to have a major life change if you are not going to continue this pattern.
My IC is good, but he and I agreed to revisit after the 8 weeks of MC. He is concerned about me, first and foremost (as he is trained). Our last session focused on radical acceptance of the situation and realizing I have no power aside from controlling myself.
Personally, I have enjoyed our sessions with the MC. It has been a safe place that my W and I have communicated better than we have in ages. We have 3 sessions left of our agreed upon 8 total. The side benefit of the MC is that it will likely be useful for long-term co-parenting, should we go our separate ways.
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As for your W, I'd back off and support in whatever way you can. She needs more help as the counselors haven't been successful this far, though I don't know how much she is committed to fixing herself yet either.
I think she is lost and doesn't fully (or even partially) know how. I am focusing right now on trying to stay detached. Keeping text messages entirely focused on logistics of childcare, money, etc. Trying to avoid saying 'I love you' (that's my hardest rule to keep). I appreciate the tough love from the replies on here. It honestly isn't what I expected after lurking for so long... but it helps put my position in perspective.
She suggested a compromise on Friday that during this separation, our D not be relocated, but rather my W is at the home during waking hours, then returns to her parents to sleep. I told her to think on it over the weekend but that I was open to it.
She returned home this evening and announced that she wanted to resume the co-parenting schedule we used 5 weeks back. I reminded her of her compromise suggestion and she essentially told me she changed her mind, and this is what she wants. She admitted that her earlier idea was potentially better for our daughter, but she didn't seem to care.
While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.
I managed to not say 'I love you' (first) while she was here, but I did let her know that I had missed her while she was with friends this weekend. She took a light pack of clothing, our daughter, her computer, and left. On the way out, she did say 'we will both miss you' and 'we love you' and I did tell her I loved her back.
lumis, sorry you are here. And wow, that initial read of your sitch was pretty exhausting. Not going to lie, but it appears that you have a lot to overcome. And you've obviously made a lot of mistakes.
First, your initial post had a thread of victim-hood throughout. You seem to run a bit from responsibility. For instance, on the abortion. You position it as if you had NO choice. That is not something that you just fall into. That is a deliberate action that requires appointments and follow-through. So to paint it as if you guys were periphery to the decision to terminate that pregnancy is a complete white-wash of facts. Using your child's well-being against the unborn child's is also a falsehood. That casts dispersion on anyone that has more than one child! You even talk about your "breakdowns" as if you are using them as excuses for not stepping up, or as if it an excuse to make poor decisions (leaving the marital home, etc). I do not pretend to be an expert on mental health, but you seem to be able to handle some things that are pretty anxiety-inducing.
Second, you are putting way too much pressure on her. The whole agreement to do counseling for 8 weeks, and everything related to that smacks of trying to exert pressure, and even more, control. Reminding her of what she has agreed to. Making the point that she has to be present to see your changes. All of that screams pressure....AND control. I'd never excuse EAs and PAs, but I do have to wonder how much of her EAs and PAs are due to you being overbearing. As if she is rebelling against the control you try to exert. I saw this dynamic in my own sitch, as I was pretty controlling, and would let me frustrations and displeasure be known when her choices didn't match up to the choices I wanted her to make. Even on this point, I see avoidance from you on taking responsibility. You blame her promiscuity solely on her "trauma", while there are clear signs that there is more at play there than just merely her being driven by her past trauma.
Third, I mentioned lots of mistakes. lumis, you have an opportunity for huge 180s here. Sure you can 180 on your being an absent father. And being verbally abusive. Those were two things I had to 180 on too. But you can also 180 on your ethics and morals. "Shared OW?" Reaching out to someone online? Presenting polyamory to her as an option based on that EA? lumis, do you have a moral compass at all? Do you have a real understanding of what it means to commit to someone in a marriage, forsaking all others? You say she was a minister's daughter, and her parents seem to be somewhat involved in her life. Have you ever reached out to them for moral guidance? Or anyone for that matter?
You are reading DR. Good. Start implementing it. That means you are going to have to take bold steps. First, GAL. When you aren't parenting you are busy. And this doesn't involve OW!! It involves you being with other males, doing manly things. I don't care if it is merely bowling, the fact is you need male companionship that has nothing to do wive loe and sex. Second, you need to detach from her. This means you try to exert ZERO control over her. You remove all pressure and pursuit. You give her space and time to figure her own stuff out. You LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK! And finally, work on you.180s all around. Get into church if you have any inclination along those lines and try to find some type of a moral compass to your life. You are not an animal. You can control your impulses!!
Final 2x4:
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While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.
What in the world is that!?! You say you are partway through DR. What part of the book advocates this type of pressure? How does this align with detachment? Could this scream desperation and being completely pathetic more?? (I'll answer that last one: NO!!!) You have to man up and command respect. And this ain't it. Everything isn't about you. You said: "I have always considered myself a fairly mature person". Really? Because the above quote shows a total lack of maturity. I mean, being jealous of your own child's relationship with their mother?!?! Really?
Lumis, I sure hope your W isn't the only one lying to her IC..............
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Lumis. You are doing everything I did. Well I was not jealous to my kids for having a mother who misses them. But everything else. Pressure to get to therapy, play the victim card etc. Dude. This is a loooooong run. You have to realize that this isn't about her. This is about you. It took me a long time to understand that. And still after 2 years I see myself asking "am I really doing this for me or her". Like Steve said LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK. It took me too long to do that the right way. You need to get to your head that you are not the victim and you need to stop acting like one.
Be the best dad ever and become the better version of you. I was told today about my XW that she has to work on herself. We cannot cure them. It is not our duty to pull them out of the deep end. Like Neffer always posts: be the lighthouse
You got this buddy. Just try to calm down. It's hard, we all know it. But it's the only thing you can do.
Me:39 W:36 S:12 D:9 T:14 M:11 Separation:sep. 1 2017 D filed oct. 2017 D finalized july 2018 OM confirmed feb 2018 D finalized July 2018
The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
Wow! You and your wife have seen a lot and have a ton to overcome. I hope you find this a safe place to work on you, and you ultimately emerge as a happier person and father.
Originally Posted by lumis
While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.
I managed to not say 'I love you' (first) while she was here, but I did let her know that I had missed her while she was with friends this weekend. She took a light pack of clothing, our daughter, her computer, and left. On the way out, she did say 'we will both miss you' and 'we love you' and I did tell her I loved her back.
This is one of many places where you try to control your wife. Toning this down would be a great 180. You control you, she controls her. You CAN set boundaries to protect yourself without being controlling. There's a whole thread on that topic Cadet doubtless linked to above. For example, if "When she makes a grand show of missing her daughter (but not you), you hurt, so you will walk to another room." If you decide upon that boundary, there's no need to communicate it, because the boundary is for you and not her.
This is not the same as being a doormat. When my partner visited I twice caught her trying to open a box I received with fun things waiting in it. I said, "No." She was excited and worried I wouldn't get around to opening them. I said I look forward to opening them when I feel like. I control me, she controls her.
Okay, I'm trying to understand. Was this exploration of alternative lifestyles suppose to help your W find peace with the trauma of the rape........or was it a solution for sex addiction?