Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2

[crdcheck]

Stressful evening and day. We have a list of things to talk about once D3 is in bed, everything from basic weekly planning (who is taking D3 to swim lessons on Saturday?) to deeper divorce items (e.g. how/when we will purchase the random stuff needed to create a new house). These actually go pretty well for the most part. We seem to both be respectful of each other and willing to work together on our tactical needs and wants. It's funny, those moments are where I'm like "if this is so easy why are we breaking up?" But then we got into the topic of her moving out. To recap and make clear - I'm fine with her moving out (to be honest, I am looking forward to having this all behind me). The issue is how her new apartment is paid for and for how long. That debate doesn't really matter because we had agreed that a) all joint expenses would have to be approved by both of us and b) that this was something that we would discuss at our next mediation session. She casually mentioned that she's having a painter over to the place she found which I ignored (thought it could be bait or maybe she doesn't "get" how stressed this makes me).

Actually, I should break for a sec - it stresses me out because, if it were the other way around, she'd be dropping mediation and going to a litigator. I feel that this is putting me and D3 at an economic disadvantage and is disrespectful. My worry is that the only option I feel I have if she starts taking money out of our joint account is litigation and that will cost us all in so many ways. So, that she's moving out doesn't stress me out - that she will walk all over me and give me no option but to litigate... well, that's terrifying.

So, she got upset last night when I said that I wasn't on board with us jointly paying for her apartment (same as I've written before), she got mad and stormed upstairs (I remained calm). I did validate but she doesn't want to hear it - all she wants is my agreement to give her what she wants. That continued into today with texts, me expressing that I'm concerned about either of us making unilateral decisions about joint items and reiterating that this should be discussed with our mediator who can guide the conversation and document the outcomes.

The other thing she mentioned is that she doesn't want me to mention to colleagues that we are married, that "it is going to make it very uncomfortable for both of us to backtrack and brings our personal situation to work". I don't know what to say to that - she's told at least six people in her org that we are getting divorced and has stopped wearing her ring, but there was no communication to me about her expectations. What should I say when I meet someone and they say "Oh, you're W's husband!"? "Uh, no, actually, we're separated"?

Once again probably just sharing/venting. As noted in previous posts, it's clear that there is no way for me to "win" - she's vilified me. I hate playing into her narrative but I'm not going to compromise my and D3's lives for her sake, and I'm not going to be a doormat.

Overall probably a bit more angry than sad today. Wish we could just be done with this.

[unchien]

crd - Simplify. What are the things you do care about? Focus on those. The rest, as stressful as it may be, I suggest you let slide, or you will get in daily battles.

Regarding the work item, what do you want to do? Ignore what your W wants to do. Then discuss in mediation as it does affect both of you, and I think it is wise to try to come to agreement.

Regarding the money - the painter is absolutely argument bait. Ignore it. Let it go. Just my opinion, easy for me to say, it's not my money. For the rent and term, discuss in mediation.

Money is a huge trigger for me as well. I just choose to ignore about 90% of the issues that come up because I want to focus on my own well-being and my kids.

You could also consider separating finances now.

Why do you think you would need to go to litigation? Do you suspect she will sign a lease without your approval, even though you discussed agreeing to this item in mediation? If that is the main sticking point, make it clear to your W now that you expect you will work this out in mediation before she takes any action, but also that you are hopeful you can come to agreement on something that will work for everyone (i.e., you don't need to make it sound like a threat, just a "hey, I'm not okay if you just sign a lease.). Also consider what is your proposal, and at what point you are willing to compromise. Art of negotiating.

Also I would advise not getting into text message conversations on this item. Text messaging is absolutely the worst form of communication. Texts can be misinterpreted in so many ways, and they often are emotion-driven. If she starts a text thread on this topic, just reply, "I would like to discuss this next week in mediation and not over text." I've been in a few text battles the last few weeks, I started replying in this way, and my W stopped. I will use e-mail sometimes as I feel like there is time to reply and be thorough and specific. Now we only text pictures of the kids, and basic logistic information.

Do you have a good custody plan in place?

[crdcheck]

crd - Simplify. What are the things you do care about? Focus on those. The rest, as stressful as it may be, I suggest you let slide, or you will get in daily battles.

Yep, that's what I've been doing, much like most of our relationship (pick battles). One of my worries is that giving in on one leads to the next, to the next and so on. For example, her rush to move out was enabled by my allowing the house to be put on the market before we had property/finance split approach on paper with mediator. That allowed her to see a light at the end of the tunnel that she is accelerating toward.

Regarding the work item, what do you want to do? Ignore what your W wants to do. Then discuss in mediation as it does affect both of you, and I think it is wise to try to come to agreement.

I am doing what I want to do and what I think is reasonable - we are married right now, everyone knows both of us, and saying anything else invites conversation that I assume she'd rather not have. I mean, it will be easy to say "yes, I know W - we actually split up recently" and then move on. But we haven't yet...

Why do you think you would need to go to litigation? Do you suspect she will sign a lease without your approval, even though you discussed agreeing to this item in mediation? If that is the main sticking point, make it clear to your W now that you expect you will work this out in mediation before she takes any action, but also that you are hopeful you can come to agreement on something that will work for everyone (i.e., you don't need to make it sound like a threat, just a "hey, I'm not okay if you just sign a lease.). Also consider what is your proposal, and at what point you are willing to compromise. Art of negotiating.

Yep, done. I think that she signed anyway. I'm keeping an eye on the checking account. Thing is that she's vilified me, there's nothing I can do that is positive in her mind, and because of my cheating everything she does is justified in her mind. So I'm left with the nuclear option of litigation (if it comes to that).

On a positive note, seeing how anti-me she is helps me to detach. I recognize that she's hurt and angry and that this could change, but I can't reconcile with the person she is right now. Perhaps she'll see my changes after the D and will open her mind a bit but there's literally nothing I can do at this point. And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that there was nothing I could have done over the past six months - perhaps if I had stood up (GAL, been assertive) that would have prompted deeper conversations with our MC but that's still a stretch.

Also I would advise not getting into text message conversations on this item. Text messaging is absolutely the worst form of communication. Texts can be misinterpreted in so many ways, and they often are emotion-driven. If she starts a text thread on this topic, just reply, "I would like to discuss this next week in mediation and not over text." I've been in a few text battles the last few weeks, I started replying in this way, and my W stopped. I will use e-mail sometimes as I feel like there is time to reply and be thorough and specific. Now we only text pictures of the kids, and basic logistic information.

Texts have been hit or miss, they keep us from getting too wordy but still allow for some thought. They are also the only option when D3 is in the picture.

Having said that, W blew up on me via text on Friday because, when I picked D3 up from summer camp, she wanted to go to her cousins, so I called W to see if that was ok. She didn't pick up so I texted. We had to go home to walk the dog and W went ballistic. She had planned to be late because she was meeting with the painter at her new apartment but that canceled, apparently. I figured I would have 30 min with the cousins and then head home. W wanted to do a movie night with D3 and me and, even though I repeatedly offered to cancel the cousins plans, she just kept flipping out on me. Totally ridiculous but allowed others (who are listening to her complain about me) see that she's not being completely logical or honest with them. FWIW I did try to call rather than text but she refused.

Do you have a good custody plan in place?

We've drafted one with the mediator and are mostly aligned except for one holiday. However, it's not in place yet. That's one of the reasons I don't want leases signed, people moving out, etc., until we meet with the mediator - we have both made assumptions and, without them having been talked through and put on paper, we have a huge risk of being misaligned.

So, the weekend went pretty well, despite the fireworks Fri evening (re: cousin time - W locked herself in the guest room once D3 was in bed). Worked out Sat morning while W took D3 to dance, I took D3 to swim lessons in the afternoon and W tagged along, and then I had solo time with D3 at the pool until the evening when I went out with some friends. Pre-GALing I would have probably tagged along for the dance lesson (not necessary to have two parents but I would have felt guilty about letting W do it by herself) so no workout, definitely wouldn't have gone out with the friends because I'd be worried about what W would be thinking. Yesterday W took D3 to a friend's house to play then to the pool. I went out for lunch with my brother's family and in-laws, then open houses (found a really great option - D3 would get an entire floor to herself!), then met with a college alumnus who is divorced and remarried for his perspective. Had bro and his wife over for dinner after that. So, out doing what I want to do, nothing I shouldn't be doing.

W seems super cold in general, playing on phone, maybe annoyed that bro was talking about the houses we toured. Again, 1-2 months ago I'd be freaking out about how she's feeling, if I've upset her, if she's looking up lawyers on her phone. Now, well, I am still a bit scared, and I am still a bit sad because I see this as so repairable, but I'm not letting it run my life.

Last item (and could use feedback on this) - D3 doesn't have summer camp for three weeks starting next week so W's family a few hours away is watching her for the first week. We normally go altogether and W asked me what I wanted to do. Given that it's her family I told her that if she wanted me to go, I would go, and if she wants to go solo, then she is welcome to do so. She decided to go solo. I'm sad because this is a family thing and, as someone who enjoys serving others, I enjoyed serving my family by doing the [boring] drive. I'm also a bit sad since D3 will be away from me for a whole week (rather than five nights if I were to go along to drop her off). Was it wrong to defer?

I'm still really looking forward to being done with the divorce process. I mean, I don't see us reconciling prior to divorce and knowing that someone hates me and is operating from such a negative position is grating. Is this normal? Or is it me mentally giving up?

[unchien]

Last item (and could use feedback on this) - D3 doesn't have summer camp for three weeks starting next week so W's family a few hours away is watching her for the first week. We normally go altogether and W asked me what I wanted to do. Given that it's her family I told her that if she wanted me to go, I would go, and if she wants to go solo, then she is welcome to do so. She decided to go solo. I'm sad because this is a family thing and, as someone who enjoys serving others, I enjoyed serving my family by doing the [boring] drive. I'm also a bit sad since D3 will be away from me for a whole week (rather than five nights if I were to go along to drop her off). Was it wrong to defer?

I'm still really looking forward to being done with the divorce process. I mean, I don't see us reconciling prior to divorce and knowing that someone hates me and is operating from such a negative position is grating. Is this normal? Or is it me mentally giving up?

crd - My W took my kids to the ILs for a week right after the BD. We had the same discussion, and decided (mutually) that I would not go. Perhaps you could negotiate some 1:1 time with D3 in return before the end of summer? Or ask to do a daily video chat (or whatever frequency you prefer) with her while she is at ILs?

For text blow-ups, I am learning on the fly also. Our MC says: "Who will be where at what time?" That's all you need to text. Now... it works best if you both are on board. Anytime she flips out, I would suggest calling her out on it, or just drawing a boundary that you will not keep responding to accusations or mind-reading. Also, general advice, don't try to change agreed-upon plans, even if it seems easy. My W wanted to take D5 to a party last weekend, I should have said no, but once I said yes, I was not going to renegotiate. I gritted my teeth and let it lie.

I am also engaging in some of the "playing family" stuff like you - I think it's really up to you how to handle it. We may do some family dinners here and there, but I'm gradually disengaging. I just don't see the point, it's way more enjoyable when I'm alone with my kids right now.

I also have wanted a lot of details documented, but I have learned to relent. It depends how toxic things are - I trust my W in certain areas and not others. I think giving her the leeway is a positive, but it isn't easy to do. As things are falling into place now a little bit, it seems to help that I have not been too legal. Again, I'm only in trial separation though.

Your sentiments about wanting to complete the process sound normal to me. Even in S I feel exactly the same way. It's fundamental: I don't want to be with somebody who does not value me (or only values me as a friend or a co-parent). That is completely natural and healthy. It's almost like the tables have turned. Yes, I have a lot I regret and a lot I want to atone for. I need to be given an open door and an opportunity - if the door is shut, I'll pack up my bag of "lessons learned" and keep walking. If you honestly and genuinely own your mistakes and have made positive changes, there's not much else you can do. I've made a lot of positive changes, and I am open to having honest conversations about how I see things, but only if she is wiling to have that conversation.

The vilification and anger from your W probably does help. In my sitch, I hope my W does find the healing she seeks, whether or not I am her H or not. Because she does seem broken and angry around me so removing myself from the equation seems healthy for all involved.

Every single person on this planet has a breaking point where they will no longer keep trying to "save" something - some people can wait longer and things do work out, or some situations don't take as long to turn around and don't test one's patience. I don't know. Maybe it is the brain's natural response to "give up" once it reaches peak exhaustion, whether or not a situation is truly salvageable. All I know is life is short, we are all imperfect, and this isn't an endurance competition.

Final comment - the physical S is going to do you some good. Your W is super angry and wants to move out. Let her go. It can only help you - not just for your relationship with her, but your own healing and moving on. I sense maybe you are still attached more to family life than your W specifically - I do miss interacting with my W's family, and some friends that are basically her old friends, but that is life for now. It's probably my new reality. Time to meet some new friends.

[crdcheck]

I sense maybe you are still attached more to family life than your W specifically - I do miss interacting with my W's family, and some friends that are basically her old friends, but that is life for now. It's probably my new reality. Time to meet some new friends.

This is absolutely true. My W hasn't been a partner to me in years and, while I recognize that at least half of that is my responsibility (obviously the cheating is 100% on me) she has left 100% of the responsibility to fix things on me. I say that because, when I look at D3, she doesn't remember my failures - she sees my new actions, takes them at face value, and moves forward with love. I look at the pictures of the three of us on vacation, during snow days, etc., and say that, no matter how we recover, those are gone. So that's straight-up depressing. And it makes me angry at W because I am fine to move past all of the frustrations of the past, start from a blank slate. But she can't and she blames me.

Anyway, she's off to the ILs this weekend, that's fine. I'm sure that I'll facetime etc.

[crdcheck]

This is such a weird place. I’m detaching. I’m doing what I want for D3, myself. I’m being assertive. I’m looking forward to my single future. I’m acting “as if”. I’m owning my feelings, not worrying about W’s feelings (to clarify - I'm not changing my reasonable behavior simply to manage her feelings). With all that I’m now of the mindset that, "hey, I have done some terrible things, but I’m a good person at my core and, for W to leave, that says more about her than about me." So, logistically, I just want this to all be done. House sold, my own place, 50/50 custody in place, and not really have to talk to W except for D3 items. There are even some points where I’m just sort of done with her, don’t really want it to work out. Can’t tell if she’s pushing buttons or that’s just who she is. So all pretty straightforward.

That is, until I think that tonight may be the last night we have as a family of three (W taking D3 to inlaws solo, leaving her there for a week, then they come stay with us for a week, then D3 to my family for a week – this last week is when W plans to move out). W asked me to grab some of D3’s school papers from her desk and I noticed that she’d removed all of our wedding photos. And between those two I’m nearly in tears. I don’t really know why. I mean, I logically know that this is over and I have a future to look forward to (I have no shortage of people to hang out with, things to do), and there are parts of her that I honestly can’t stand. But I still feel like I’m losing a huge part of myself, that all I want is for us to have another chance.

The feeling will pass. I’m joining a couple of friends for a broader company happy hour tomorrow, my dad is in town Sat/Sun and we’ll get together, and I’m looking at houses with my brother on Sunday. I just… I don’t know… I feel like this is wrong and a loss and I want to scream, yell, beg, promise, etc. to make it stop.

[unchien]

The rational part of you knows it is time to move on.

The emotional part of you still has grieving to do, all 5 stages. Accept that you'll have to go through it. You are only 2 months since the BD -- it's going to take a long time to sort yourself out. That's just not enough time to process everything.

I don't want to make this sound like false hope, but people do R after D. Sometimes space is what is needed for some healing, on both sides. One of my friends went through D (his W had a PA, then filed on him), and over a year after finalization they suddenly tried to R. This after a nasty D process full of anger. Not once, but twice. R didn't take. Now he's happier than he's ever been with his long-term live-in GF. I'm just saying... have an open mind, recognize there are a million possibilities from here on out, doors are never slammed shut, but new doors will open too.

I have my kids 30% of the time now, I miss them unbelievably, it is heart-breaking to see them forced to adapt to this situation, but... overall, I can't deny that I am happier right now than I was living with my W the last several months.

It will get better. Weather the storm

[crdcheck]

I don't want to make this sound like false hope, but people do R after D. Sometimes space is what is needed for some healing, on both sides. One of my friends went through D (his W had a PA, then filed on him), and over a year after finalization they suddenly tried to R. This after a nasty D process full of anger. Not once, but twice. R didn't take.

I'm curious - what drove them to try to R? And what ultimately led to the failure? I don't have false hope - the stat I read was that 1/3 of divorced couples attempt to R and, of those, a third succeed. 10% chance is poor but not nothing. At this point, though, it feels like we are barely roommates.

I have my kids 30% of the time now, I miss them unbelievably, it is heart-breaking to see them forced to adapt to this situation, but... overall, I can't deny that I am happier right now than I was living with my W the last several months.

Why only 30%?

[crdcheck]

It's been a few days since I've posted. This is both because I haven't had privacy and because there really hasn't been a catastrophe. D3 went solo with her mom to the in-laws last weekend. Minor fight because W didn't make facetime happen but that's not terrible. I had an amazing weekend by myself. Went out with a few old friends and made some new ones Friday at one of those arcade bar things. Thought to myself that there is no way I would have been there if W had been in town (separated or not). She wouldn't have been interested and would have whined that I was not with her. Saturday night had dinner with my bro and his family, my dad was in town. Sunday went house hunting with my brother, found a possible option. Worked out both days. In other words, GAL is going well. Oh, and since it's relevant, I didn't cheat in any way. Going to stick it out through the end.

Emotionally I have been good, too. No sadness, fear, etc. I know that it will come back but it's nice to recognize when it isn't here.

Oh, our house sold. So, that's another nail in the coffin (seems pretty sealed ha). Got a good offer so we are both fairly well-set for our next places. I did insist that we sign homemade paperwork saying that she would pay her own rent and her share of the house until it closed.

Funny thing - W has made a big deal about getting out of the house in the past but when she came back from her parents without D3 (who is staying with them for the week) she came back to the house rather than stay with a friend. I don't see any hope with this, more just interesting that she sometimes says that she can't wait to get away (us together is "toxic") but then, when she has nothing keeping her here, she stays. Crazy. And she is still happy to hang out, eat dinner together and watch TV.

Tomorrow we have another session with our mediator. W is hoping that it's the second to last one. She wants me to compromise more but I feel that her starting point is biased her way (e.g. she'll include gifts from my parents to the house as property but not include gifts from her parents to the house). I'll be calm, collected, and assertive. I have nothing to gain by being angry and I have nothing to gain by yielding nonstop. We'll see how it goes.

[LH19]

Just curious as to why when you have no kids in the house you will hangout, eat dinner and watch tv with her?