How To Treat Spouse With Children 2

[Traveler]

The WAW, IMHO, does not have the cold, selfish heart of the WW. She is not directed by selfishness. She does not have a hidden agenda that involves an affair or random sexual partners. You don't see her moral integrity dip, like you see in a WW. She doesn't go crazy, try to dress and act like a teenager, or act like GGW. She doesn't breakup the family out of sheer selfishness. She either leaves b/c her H is abusive; is imprisoned; involved in some type of illegal activity; is too controlling, jealous, etc; has an addiction........or something that pushes her to leave him in order to survive. In other words, her leaving can be seen as justifiable.

Thanks, Sandi. These descriptions should be pinned somewhere!

[sandi2]

I’m just not totally detached yet.

You don't have to be totally detached to drop the rope. It just makes it a little easier. Being detached does not mean you stop feeling love for her. I think I've seen you mention something about no longer caring, and that's not what we mean. You will probably always "care" about her, since she is the mother of your child. Just stop pursuing and trying to enforce particular feelings in her. Whether you realize it or can understand why........when a woman no longer feels desire & respect for a man, all his pursuing becomes unwanted pressure.

Would the idea of dating someone else make her mad or justify her actions?

I don't recommend that you date someone just to make your W jealous, b/c it doesn't get your focus off her and watching to see what type of reaction she'll have. I'm saying that you need to stop trying different approaches and/or techniques for the sole purpose of getting a desired reaction. One reason you are pursuing heavily is b/c you are watching her too much. Nothing "justifies" waywardness. That doesn't mean she won't twist it around and make herself appear justified.

I know you can’t fight emotions with logic, so if I emotionally detach from her, then that is obviously speaking to her emotions. But if I still seem attached to her then she won’t want me because the logical thing to do.

Wow! Talk about twisting things around!

Do you think I’m understanding that correctly?

No, I don't.

Finally, I don’t know if she is WAW or WW, but I feel like she’s more WAW based on what the MC has said. Does that change any of your advice?

No, b/c I learned a long time ago that it's the LBH that doesn't want to believe/accept that his wife is wayward.
You said you had read those links I posted, right? Did you not see your W in any of those posts? Look, it is not an affair that makes her wayward. If you read the first page of the first thread in those links, you would understand what I mean by that statement. She has already developed a wayward mindset before she engages in some type of affair. Having an affair is an act of rebellion against her H and their M. I'd guess that she's been showing lesser signs or degrees of rebellion for years......but you apparently did not recognize her reactions/behavior to you, as rebellion.

FWIW, I was very depressed, too, when I engaged in an EA.

Now, about what the MC says. Outside of religious type of writings, I don't find the word "wayward" used that much on line or in secular books. You can google it, and you'll mostly get Biblical scripture references. It's not a popular word to describe a wife these days, however, the definition of wayward fits her perfectly. You'll come closer to finding material under the topic of hard-hearted wife. IMHO, that definition does not completely cover the subject of a wayward wife. BTW, Michele Davis does not divide the WAW & WW into separate definitions, so you won't find WW in her book. Anyway, back to your MC. I see newcomers get confused when they are talking to counselors, friends, relatives, reading dozens of books, and joining various forums. All that advice from various sources is not going to match. So, you may have to decide who or what source to follow.

Do I just get up and leave MC when she starts to get angry and go off? I do hang up on her every now and then when she gets angry, but I feel like she does that to me more! That’s why I feel like she DB’s as much as I do!

No.........if you insist on using a MC before your WW is ready to reconcile for the right reasons, then allow the counselor to be in control of the sessions. If you get up and walk out, then why attend? There is a lot about DBing you have to learn, and most people don't try to get it all said in one post (except may me).

If you'll study personal boundaries, then you can set one about not continuing a phone call when you are being disrespected by the caller. Boundaries are to protect you. They are not about controlling the other person.


BTW, I've been meaning to ask what you are doing to GAL. Can you share a list of activities you do to get a life?

[sandi2]

Sorry for so many posts at once. Just trying to catch up a little.

I get your point, but will there ever be a time that I just decide to walk away and really be done with it?

I feel like I have all these things I want to say to her but can’t because she’s not willing to listen to them.

You and your W are in separate time frames. By the time she decides she wants to work on a relationship with you, it may be too late and you've move on with your life and have no desire to risk another possible heartache from her. We see it quite often.

All these things you want to say to her is your urgency to pursue. I get it. What you haven't quite accepted yet, is that DBing a WW goes against what your emotions are dictating. One reason I think more marriages are not saved is b/c the LBH takes too long before he finally drops the rope, and has nothing left to give when she wants to try again.

When have I given her too much breathing room?

You can't give her too much breathing room. This woman doesn't want you. She is not the girl you married. You are pressuring someone who has no desire/loving feelings for you. You are either afraid to give her plenty of space and time without you..........or else you are a controller. Look, maybe before you married her you chased her and she liked it. That's how the game is played before marriage. However, the reason it worked is b/c she wanted it. If she was repelled by you........there would have been a different ending. Do you get what I'm saying? What works in a WW sitch is for the LBH to dump her...........at least, it appears that he is through and moving on with his life. (I hope you won't ask me what that looks like, b/c then I'll think you've never broken up with a girl you didn't want anymore.) The LBH fears that the picture he gives of "dumping her" will give her what she wants or somehow discourages the chance of reconciling. That's the crazy part that a lot of guys don't get. Once the H emotionally lets go, she senses it and it draws her toward him.

She'll know when you stop all the pressuring techniques you've been using. She'll know when you aren't obviously interested in every move she makes or every word she utters. Don't wait around, expecting some detached feelings to suddenly show up. Act as if you are already detached. Do the action and let the feeling catch up.

I agree with you and boundaries need to happen. I just don’t know that it’s my place yet because she’s not willing to listen to me.

Wait.........it has nothing to do with you talking and her listening. This is not a relationship discussion. As for it being your place.....You can only make protective boundaries around yourself. It's like an invisible shield around you. You decide what type of bad treatment you won't tolerate from other people. If someone does not respect you, then you have to make a move. You may decide to hang up, or walk away.......but you are always the one who does the responding action when another person disrespects you. It's up to you to protect your feelings. And, I can tell you the only way to enforce a boundary is if your responding action is a consequence to the offender. Otherwise, they don't learn to take you seriously, and they continue repeating the disrespect. But you decide what you'll do. You don't have a discussion. You don't navigate. I'd advise you not to say or do anything, until you have read the homework on personal boundary setting.... and how to enforce those boundaries if dishonored. Think of property boundaries. They are there for a reason, and should someone disregard our property lines, then we take some type of action to protect what is valuable to us.

We are going to spend 1 session in MC this week talking about Coparenting and then go right back to our marriage, so I hope that the stuff with her parents comes out then. Her parents are there ALL the time.

Your W is not in one accord with you. She blames you for her unhappiness. Even if she didn't want her folks at the house, her stubborn pride with not cooperate with you wanting to approach the in-laws about leaving. This is simply another example of why MC isn't usually successful with reconciliation in WW cases. Now, should she decide to start doing the right thing, feel remorse for her behavior and want to save the M......then MC can help. Right now, she's not in the right frame of mind.

I am going to tell her that I would be willing to talk to her parents, it’s something I should’ve done a long time ago. I just didn’t think it would get to this point. No, she lives at our home with her parents and I moved out.

Yikes! That's a really bad situation. Everyone lives in your house, but you. I suggest you wait until you consult with a lawyer as to where you stand legally on this one. I mean, once you leave and she claims it was voluntary........IDK. So, check with the lawyer ASAP.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on the marriage?

I think it's more common for the WW to not want to work on the marriage. She didn't become wayward overnight. It took her a while. The good news is that it can turn around. In order for it to turn around, she has to show respect for you. She can behave respectfully, even if she doesn't feel it. That's why I want you to get the right information and stop applying ineffective methods. You need the right tools in order to get the right results.

[HrtHsbnd]

Thanks Sandi!

No, b/c I learned a long time ago that it's the LBH that doesn't want to believe/accept that his wife is wayward.
You said you had read those links I posted, right? Did you not see your W in any of those posts? Look, it is not an affair that makes her wayward. If you read the first page of the first thread in those links, you would understand what I mean by that statement. She has already developed a wayward mindset before she engages in some type of affair. Having an affair is an act of rebellion against her H and their M. I'd guess that she's been showing lesser signs or degrees of rebellion for years......but you apparently did not recognize her reactions/behavior to you, as rebellion.

FWIW, I was very depressed, too, when I engaged in an EA.

Now, about what the MC says. Outside of religious type of writings, I don't find the word "wayward" used that much on line or in secular books. You can google it, and you'll mostly get Biblical scripture references. It's not a popular word to describe a wife these days, however, the definition of wayward fits her perfectly. You'll come closer to finding material under the topic of hard-hearted wife. IMHO, that definition does not completely cover the subject of a wayward wife. BTW, Michele Davis does not divide the WAW & WW into separate definitions, so you won't find WW in her book. Anyway, back to your MC. I see newcomers get confused when they are talking to counselors, friends, relatives, reading dozens of books, and joining various forums. All that advice from various sources is not going to match. So, you may have to decide who or what source to follow.

I honestly don’t know if she is a WAW or WW. I feel like some of both descriptions fit her. She has had depression and anxiety since we met, so it’s not something that just started. I can see why most LBS’s don’t want their wife to be WW. I don’t want her to be either, but I feel like most in here think it’s my opinion she is instead of what the facts say. In addition, the people closest to us feel that she isn’t, either.

She is mean, shows no respect and doesn’t want to work on our marriage, in addition to the red flags in the other thread. However, she is the one that set up MC and she is the one actively going. We have spoken about my concerns in MC and she has convinced both of us that she isn’t doing anything because she is so done with men. She blames my feelings on my ego because I couldn’t believe she just wouldn’t want to be with me, so it has to be someone else.

She may be right, too

No.........if you insist on using a MC before your WW is ready to reconcile for the right reasons, then allow the counselor to be in control of the sessions. If you get up and walk out, then why attend? There is a lot about DBing you have to learn, and most people don't try to get it all said in one post (except may me).

If you'll study personal boundaries, then you can set one about not continuing a phone call when you are being disrespected by the caller. Boundaries are to protect you. They are not about controlling the other person.

I have been studying them and thank you for telling me more about them. MC wasn’t my idea because I didn’t feel that she was ready for it yet. She found the MC and he is amazing! He feels there really is no reason we can t work this out, we’ve just got to give it time and she has to miss me.

That’s really what I feel like I need help with. How do I make her miss me? What are the most effective ways of making her miss me?

BTW, I've been meaning to ask what you are doing to GAL. Can you share a list of activities you do to get a life?

I go to the driving range almost every night to get some steam off.
I try to walk about the block and go to the gym.
When I have my S, we stay busy so that he has fun and it takes both our minds off things.
I am trying to join a cooking class and baseball team
I also try to read and do a lot of research

[HrtHsbnd]

Sorry for so many posts at once. Just trying to catch up a little.

Thank you! I always appreciate your posts!

You and your W are in separate time frames. By the time she decides she wants to work on a relationship with you, it may be too late and you've move on with your life and have no desire to risk another possible heartache from her. We see it quite often.

All these things you want to say to her is your urgency to pursue. I get it. What you haven't quite accepted yet, is that DBing a WW goes against what your emotions are dictating. One reason I think more marriages are not saved is b/c the LBH takes too long before he finally drops the rope, and has nothing left to give when she wants to try again.

This is a very interesting point, even though we don’t know if she is WW or not. I think even the posters here have said that I’m portraying that but that doesn’t mean that she has been anywhere close to being WW. They agree with our friends and family, too.

You are so right, though. We are on separate timeframes. I feel that I have been through a lot. While I am truly sorry for how I treated the 8 months before BD, she has treated me so much worse since then. I truly am trying to drop the rope. I feel that it has taken me awhile though to get to this point. I am just afraid that I am moving on and don’t want her in my life, even though I strongly feel that’s not what’s best for my son or our family.

I feel I have done EVERYTHING to work on our marriage and everyone including the MC seems to agree. I feel that she has done nothing and I mean NOTHING and that’s what hurts so much. She was reading books on webchat with our S and said she wanted to read like a family. I got somewhat aggravated and said that we are NOT a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I didn’t want our S to hear do I spelled it out.

Then I took him to a baseball game and he had such a fun time. I feel he truly made lifelong memories that evening. I invited her and instead of immediately refusing to go, she waited about 18 hours before she declined. I don’t know what that means, but I hope it’s because she is thinking about it and getting opinions.

You can't give her too much breathing room. This woman doesn't want you. She is not the girl you married. You are pressuring someone who has no desire/loving feelings for you. You are either afraid to give her plenty of space and time without you..........or else you are a controller. Look, maybe before you married her you chased her and she liked it. That's how the game is played before marriage. However, the reason it worked is b/c she wanted it. If she was repelled by you........there would have been a different ending. Do you get what I'm saying? What works in a WW sitch is for the LBH to dump her...........at least, it appears that he is through and moving on with his life. (I hope you won't ask me what that looks like, b/c then I'll think you've never broken up with a girl you didn't want anymore.) The LBH fears that the picture he gives of "dumping her" will give her what she wants or somehow discourages the chance of reconciling. That's the crazy part that a lot of guys don't get. Once the H emotionally lets go, she senses it and it draws her toward him.

She'll know when you stop all the pressuring techniques you've been using. She'll know when you aren't obviously interested in every move she makes or every word she utters. Don't wait around, expecting some detached feelings to suddenly show up. Act as if you are already detached. Do the action and let the feeling catch up.

Again, you are so right! I have been trying to do this these past few weeks. I feel I have gotten off the emotional rollercoaster.

I don’t feel that it’s fair to assume that I know how to ‘dump’ my wife, though. While I have broken up with women in the past, I feel that this is a completely different situation because she’s my wife and easily the longest relationship I’ve ever had. Not to mention we have a family together. This is why I don’t want to date anyone, which is usually what I do when I move on.

Quite frankly, I’m thinking about giving her my ring back and just being done with it. But again, I’m not sure that’s the right thing to do or not.

Any suggestions on how to dump her in this situation?

Wait.........it has nothing to do with you talking and her listening. This is not a relationship discussion. As for it being your place.....You can only make protective boundaries around yourself. It's like an invisible shield around you. You decide what type of bad treatment you won't tolerate from other people. If someone does not respect you, then you have to make a move. You may decide to hang up, or walk away.......but you are always the one who does the responding action when another person disrespects you. It's up to you to protect your feelings. And, I can tell you the only way to enforce a boundary is if your responding action is a consequence to the offender. Otherwise, they don't learn to take you seriously, and they continue repeating the disrespect. But you decide what you'll do. You don't have a discussion. You don't navigate. I'd advise you not to say or do anything, until you have read the homework on personal boundary setting.... and how to enforce those boundaries if dishonored. Think of property boundaries. They are there for a reason, and should someone disregard our property lines, then we take some type of action to protect what is valuable to us.

I am trying to remember this as I am communicating with her. These boundaries are for me. She has put certain boundaries in place for her, so I don’t know why I can’t have some in place for me.

Her talking about how she wants to play house is DEFINITELY one of my boundaries.

Your W is not in one accord with you. She blames you for her unhappiness. Even if she didn't want her folks at the house, her stubborn pride with not cooperate with you wanting to approach the in-laws about leaving. This is simply another example of why MC isn't usually successful with reconciliation in WW cases. Now, should she decide to start doing the right thing, feel remorse for her behavior and want to save the M......then MC can help. Right now, she's not in the right frame of mind.

Since we don’t know if she is a WAW or a WW, I don’t know how to apply this advice. I see your point, though. I suggested in MC to apologize to her parents and she REALLY seemed to warm up to the idea. I think it shellshocked her, honestly. She is very stubborn and I hope that she will be in one accord with me soon.

She feels that she is doing the right thing. So much so that I have actually had to ask people we both know and I trust whether or not I’m misunderstanding the situation. I have been told by all of them that I am doing the right things and thinking the right way to get my family back. She does not feel she has done anything wrong, other than to take a huge listing away from me and she does not seem to want to save the M. She says her going to MC is the way she’s showing me she is working on the marriage, though she calls it coparenting.

Yikes! That's a really bad situation. Everyone lives in your house, but you. I suggest you wait until you consult with a lawyer as to where you stand legally on this one. I mean, once you leave and she claims it was voluntary........IDK. So, check with the lawyer ASAP.

Yes it is a bad situation.

I already left and came back and had to leave again based on the courts.

I think it's more common for the WW to not want to work on the marriage. She didn't become wayward overnight. It took her a while. The good news is that it can turn around. In order for it to turn around, she has to show respect for you. She can behave respectfully, even if she doesn't feel it. That's why I want you to get the right information and stop applying ineffective methods. You need the right tools in order to get the right results.

Again, everyone here and friends and family feel she is a WAW, except you and I. So I’m not sure that she actually is a WW.

She should start showing respect, as I deserve her highest respect.

Thank you for looking out for me. I look forward to reading your responses!

[HrtHsbnd]

She let me know today that she is seeing our MC as her IC about 3-4 times a month. She wouldn’t say what she was working with him on, but she did say it was to work through her feelings.

I told her I was proud of her and I would support her through it. She seemed very relieved that I felt that way and I encouraged her to keep going.

I hope this is a good sign.

[HrtHsbnd]

I would love to get more advice from anyone.

[TBSakaJ9]

I don't think it changes anything. Keep DBing and doing your thing.

[LH19]

H,

Unfortunately it could very well be her IC pushing her towards D if that is what will make her happy.

[AnotherStander]

She let me know today that she is seeing our MC as her IC about 3-4 times a month. She wouldn’t say what she was working with him on, but she did say it was to work through her feelings.

I told her I was proud of her and I would support her through it. She seemed very relieved that I felt that way and I encouraged her to keep going.

I hope this is a good sign.

IC will tell her what she wants to hear. If she wants D, then she will come home feeling like the IC "vindicated" that choice. That's just how IC's are, they are there to listen and validate, not to steer the direction the patient goes in.