How To Treat Spouse With Children 2

[HrtHsbnd]

Sandi, thank you for taking time out of your day to give me your advice. I really appreciate it!

I understand and I feel I have been doing that, I’m just not totally detached yet.
Would the idea of dating someone else make her mad or justify her actions?

When you were a kid, did you ever play tug-of-war? You and an opponent pull on a rope, and whoever pulls the other one over the middle line, first, wins the game. Both teams are struggling with all their might, pulling on that rope! That's what a lot of couples do when facing a sitch like yours. However, the minute you drop your end of the rope.......the struggle is over. You walk away from it and focus on making a life for yourself. That's dropping the rope! You stop trying to figure out how to get her back. You stop wondering what she's doing, what she's thinking, etc. You just go on with life as though she were no longer a part of it. You don't act mean, cold-hearted, or anything along those lines....but you don't get involved with her drama.

She will usually pout or be depressed. She will also just be really mean and short with me and won’t let talk to my son on webchat. She does say a lot of things that really dumbfound and mislead me, so I can see that, too.

I know you can’t fight emotions with logic, so if I emotionally detach from her, then that is obviously speaking to her emotions. But if I still seem attached to her then she won’t want me because the logical thing to do.

Do you think I’m understanding that correctly?

Finally, I don’t know if she is WAW or WW, but I feel like she’s more WAW based on what the MC has said. Does that change any of your advice?

B/c she can sense when she's lost her hold on you. When none of her little escapades work anymore, and when you stop rescuing her from consequences and just let her deal with the reality she's caused.

Whenever she acts helpless/desperate, or says that nobody cares about her, or whatever she decides to use that will make you do whatever it is she wants at that particular moment. She will say and do things that mislead, dumbfound, and confuse you......b/c you think logically, and she doesn't. She will test you to see if you are still emotionally attached to her, and when she sees that you are......then she's not interested. The one thing the WW doesn't really consider.....is losing the H's love and availability in her life. She doesn't want him, but she thought he would always carry a torch for her. I know that makes no sense to you, but it is the arrogant mindset. She doesn't really see him replacing her position in his life. Even if she tells him she wants him to find someone else......she doesn't mean it. It's just a scenario she gives.

I totally agree with you and not being her H is hard. Theres no way for you to k ow this, but the problem with these examples is that money has never and will never be an issue for her because of her parents. She is a lot of debt, but I’m sure they will help her get out of that, too.

Honestly, the only thing she really needs from me is companionship. Their relationship is just different.

As far as calling me to complain about something just doesn’t happen. We really don’t speak anymore unless it’s during FaceTime with our son. That’s not on me, but her wishes. Any ideas on how to open that communication up other than just continuing to DB?

When she said she wanted a D and left you, then her problems became her problems.......not yours. She has fired you, so now you stop playing like her H. Most times the W's problems are about her need for more money. Maybe she's maxed out her credit cards, took too many weekend trips, bought too many clothes......whatever. If she wants a new car and can't afford one on her salary alone, don't co-sign for a loan and don't buy her a car. If all her old friends don't invite her to their get-togethers any more, don't try to fix their relationship. Let her figure it out.

Some W's will call their LBH, complaining about something, and the H thinks if he fixes it (or rescues her) then he scores brownie points. If she has a wayward mindset, it won't get him any closer to reconciliation. Allowing her to face consequences that came due to her decision to leave the M, is a form of tough love. She doesn't want you, but she wants you to fix her bills or buy her something b/c she can't afford it? No, it doesn't work that way. If she wants to live on her own, then she has to figure out how to do it. (I hope you will stay balanced about this, and don't get crazy.) BTW, don't decide to repeat any of these words to her, thinking you'll break through to her.

Do I just get up and leave MC when she starts to get angry and go off? I do hang up on her every now and then when she gets angry, but I feel like she does that to me more! That’s why I feel like she DB’s as much as I do!

Then get off the ride! When you see her bringing drama.......you don't engage. If possible, you remove yourself. You be you, and stop trying to win her back. When she's nice, just remind yourself it means NOTHING. Don't start doing cartwheels or anything.......just be polite. If she starts pulling the freaking turd trick, separate yourself from her. Her parents are on their own.

I totally agree with you here, too. She wants people from my side on her side so she can justify her actions and then throw it in my face.

Sandi, this is hard. I love my wife but this person she is right now is horrible!

Control and manipulation. Even if you can't understand or see it, she is doing it to benefit herself somehow.

[HrtHsbnd]

I get your point, but will there ever be a time that I just decide to walk away and really be done with it?

I feel like I have all these things I want to say to her but can’t because she’s not willing to listen to them.

When have I given her too much breathing room?

We’ve been doing this for 5 months.

She is emotionally checked out. And let me tell ya, when you try to make her feel something she doesn't want to feel.......you're just digging the M grave deeper.

To you, it may seem you are trying to help her when she's depressed. However, it is heavy pursuit, and trying to get her to have some emotion is simply not your place. I see this all the time when reading LBH threads. They try to make the W feel a certain way, and it's very frustrating. LBH's want to see some type of response, so they poke & poke until they get something. I'm telling you it does not help the H's cause. Reading letters over the phone is pressure. She may have gotten a little emotional, but that's all it was. Please stop texting, emailing, and calling........unless it is urgent. She sees all of it as you smothering her to death. So, back off and give her plenty of breathing room (which her parents never have).

I agree with you and boundaries need to happen. I just don’t know that it’s my place yet because she’s not willing to listen to me. We are going to spend 1 session in MC this week talking about Coparenting and then go right back to our marriage, so I hope that the stuff with her parents comes out then. Her parents are there ALL the time. She even brings her motives to doctor appointments with our son.

I am going to tell her that I would be willing to talk to her parents, it’s something I should’ve done a long time ago. I just didn’t think it would get to this point. No, she lives at our home with her parents and I moved out.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on the marriage?

That's very unfortunate, b/c the M won't stand a chance as long as you have other people living in the house with you. I put extra emphasis on in-laws!! No wonder she seems immature, if her parents are there all the time and taking up her slack. If the MR reconciles, there needs to be a very serious agreement in place that she will stand beside you when YOU tell her parents that it's time for them to go home. In fact, why can't you tell them to go home now, since their daughter no lives there?

[SteveLW]

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on their marriage?

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outsi wide of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

Of course! By time BD rolls around they are done. This is what we try to get LBSs to see all the time. WAS says " I'm done. I want as little of you as possible." The LBS then reacts to that by smothering then with their presence 24/7! And then wonder why their MR wasn't saved.

BD was not an impulse. Most WASs have been building up to BD for months.... Even years.

So no, they do not want to work on the marriage. If they did they wouldn't have BD'd you.

[HrtHsbnd]

Good points!

I feel that’s one of the things I’ve done well with. At first, it was very hard to leave her alone, but I gave her 3-4 weeks with no contact. I would’ve given her more, but she never did anything she agreed too. These were things she said she wanted to do!

In addition, she kept using our S to force me to sign a document that I just wasn’t going to sign, so I went to a lawyer. The lawyer told me to go home, so I did. I’m not there now legally, though.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on their marriage?

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outsi wide of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

Of course! By time BD rolls around they are done. This is what we try to get LBSs to see all the time. WAS says " I'm done. I want as little of you as possible." The LBS then reacts to that by smothering then with their presence 24/7! And then wonder why their MR wasn't saved.

BD was not an impulse. Most WASs have been building up to BD for months.... Even years.

So no, they do not want to work on the marriage. If they did they wouldn't have BD'd you.

[BluWave]

Hi HH,

Thank you for inviting me to join. I've looked over your threads. I see you have AS and Sandi in your corner -- they are the most seasoned vets and give the best well thought out and thorough advice on the boards! So I am not sure what I can add! A couple of things did come to mind when I was reading, so I can add my thoughts on that. I also think I have a better understanding of WHs than I do of WWs and WAWs, because that is what I dealt with personally, and the DB techniques worked in my sitch when I finally started implementing them correctly. I find WAWs and WWs more confusing TBH.

You asked how to know if you have a WW or a WAW and I see AS answered that and Sandi gave you some links. Perhaps you can answer that better than any of us because we don't really know your W and your history? It seems that the LBHs that have a WAW can think back and see a pattern that has been ongoing. While BD felt like this sudden event or change, they know it wasn't really, they just didn't pay close attention before that. With a WAW, there has been a history of something -- for example, her saying explicitly she was unhappy, or trying to evoke change in the M with you (ie nagging but I hate that word), or maybe even there were years of withdrawal or depression going on. There can even be a pause when she gives up on this "trying" and then BD happens, so it feels like a sudden event. But when the LBH really examines the history with her, he will see it was not a sudden change and simply decided to bail, but rather she had reached the breaking point and she could no longer tolerate it. This can even include an exit affair or some other plan to leave. I have no science to back this, but I tend to think the WAW is less likely to return than the WW. As AS explained, the WW is "chasing the dragon," and it's as if she is more running towards someone else than she is running away from you. Over time, as the A burns out and limerance ends, she might be more likely to reconsider her H than if she is a WAW. Again, I am not the expert, but this is my take. And don't even ask me about MLC, because I call BS on that term in general :-)

So I can only gather you asked for my feedback because you wanted one of my rusty-nail-studded 2*4s? So I will oblige you, sir. .... I had several cringe worthy moments when I read through your threads and these were them. I apologize if I misquote you, but it takes too long to reread everything, and so hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

Here are some things that stood out to me when I read your posts:
"she swooped in and took my sale"
"my inlaws lived with us, even though they shouldn't have"
"I tried to move back in, but she changed the locks"
"she tries to say that it's not MC, even though we both know that it is"
You talk about being mean and cold and then in the next breath being nice
You say that you are an "alpha male" but that this sitch she created has prevented you from being yourself....
You want results (we all do, that's why we are here)
You seem to think that as you make the correct changes, you will get results from her

Can you see a pattern here? What is the pattern and what could benefit from being corrected?

I am not sure if people get this about me (and they may not even care to, which is fine) but the frequent "alpha" verses "beta" male topic and debate is a moot point in my (humble and yet strong) opinion. I could write you several convincing paragraphs as to why my H is an alpha (wasn't before), and I could also do the same and write a persuasive essay as to why he is beta. And, I could do the same about myself, as I think I have characteristics of both. I will save you from that, as I imagine the readers here would find it painful, just as I will from my views on "feminism" and why that is a dying term. But you know what I will tell you, HH? Whether you are "apha" or "beta" or like me and try to be careful with gender stereotypes, there is something that universally most people find attractive. And that is confidence!

After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either.

Blu

[joejoe1]

HH,

Blu hit that nail on the head. That 2x4 is secured. You need to print this out and make it your mantra. It takes a long time to rebuild confidence, the only way to start rebuilding it, is too accept that you are lacking it!

"After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta (action word) drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either."

Onward and upward. You got this HH!!!

Joe

[HrtHsbnd]

Blu and Joe, thank you for adding your input!

AS and Sandi are absolutely amazing and I am honored to get their advice! I am trying to listen and do everything they say. Blu, I am SO GLAD you said what you did. I needed to hear that!

We have always had a wonderful marriage, but it started breaking down with our jobs. She has depression and anxiety. She had told me her feelings, nagged and all of that, which is why I think she’s a WAW. I also think she would never cheat on me. But there has been a lot of smoke, too.

I will be honest, I have always had confidence. Maybe too much! This situation has really hurt my confidence, which is why I’ve been working hard on myself to be the best person, husband and father I can be. That has brought my confidence back in every area except one, dealing with her. Nothing I say or do is right no matter what I do, so I am at a loss on that situation. I realized this weekend that I just need to take a step back and drop the rope, as Sandi said to do and not even care anymore. She will notice that, too.

I don’t need her in my life to be happy or successful. I was happy and successful before I met her and gave her the success and happiness with her career and everything else she now enjoys, too. I am working so hard on my marriage because my life is just better with her and my family in it.

Please stop by and give your opinion anytime. I always enjoy reading and following the advice of all you guys on here.

Hi HH,

Thank you for inviting me to join. I've looked over your threads. I see you have AS and Sandi in your corner -- they are the most seasoned vets and give the best well thought out and thorough advice on the boards! So I am not sure what I can add! A couple of things did come to mind when I was reading, so I can add my thoughts on that. I also think I have a better understanding of WHs than I do of WWs and WAWs, because that is what I dealt with personally, and the DB techniques worked in my sitch when I finally started implementing them correctly. I find WAWs and WWs more confusing TBH.

You asked how to know if you have a WW or a WAW and I see AS answered that and Sandi gave you some links. Perhaps you can answer that better than any of us because we don't really know your W and your history? It seems that the LBHs that have a WAW can think back and see a pattern that has been ongoing. While BD felt like this sudden event or change, they know it wasn't really, they just didn't pay close attention before that. With a WAW, there has been a history of something -- for example, her saying explicitly she was unhappy, or trying to evoke change in the M with you (ie nagging but I hate that word), or maybe even there were years of withdrawal or depression going on. There can even be a pause when she gives up on this "trying" and then BD happens, so it feels like a sudden event. But when the LBH really examines the history with her, he will see it was not a sudden change and simply decided to bail, but rather she had reached the breaking point and she could no longer tolerate it. This can even include an exit affair or some other plan to leave. I have no science to back this, but I tend to think the WAW is less likely to return than the WW. As AS explained, the WW is "chasing the dragon," and it's as if she is more running towards someone else than she is running away from you. Over time, as the A burns out and limerance ends, she might be more likely to reconsider her H than if she is a WAW. Again, I am not the expert, but this is my take. And don't even ask me about MLC, because I call BS on that term in general :-)

So I can only gather you asked for my feedback because you wanted one of my rusty-nail-studded 2*4s? So I will oblige you, sir. .... I had several cringe worthy moments when I read through your threads and these were them. I apologize if I misquote you, but it takes too long to reread everything, and so hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

Here are some things that stood out to me when I read your posts:
"she swooped in and took my sale"
"my inlaws lived with us, even though they shouldn't have"
"I tried to move back in, but she changed the locks"
"she tries to say that it's not MC, even though we both know that it is"
You talk about being mean and cold and then in the next breath being nice
You say that you are an "alpha male" but that this sitch she created has prevented you from being yourself....
You want results (we all do, that's why we are here)
You seem to think that as you make the correct changes, you will get results from her

Can you see a pattern here? What is the pattern and what could benefit from being corrected?

I am not sure if people get this about me (and they may not even care to, which is fine) but the frequent "alpha" verses "beta" male topic and debate is a moot point in my (humble and yet strong) opinion. I could write you several convincing paragraphs as to why my H is an alpha (wasn't before), and I could also do the same and write a persuasive essay as to why he is beta. And, I could do the same about myself, as I think I have characteristics of both. I will save you from that, as I imagine the readers here would find it painful, just as I will from my views on "feminism" and why that is a dying term. But you know what I will tell you, HH? Whether you are "apha" or "beta" or like me and try to be careful with gender stereotypes, there is something that universally most people find attractive. And that is confidence!

After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either.

Blu

[joejoe1]

HH,

The things I bolded are the same things that most LBS struggle with.

The things I italicized are action words, you must do those things. Most LBS have to do the same things. It's a constant theme. I have been here almost 2 years now and have seen the same story repeat over and over, just different characters. And having too much confidence is called being cocky! Being cocky over time can be very damaging. Examine that part of your life and reflect on how much damage you may have possibly caused. I had to call a lot of people to apologize after some deep self reflection. My cockiest was really me being a know it all, and ultimately I had a lot of insecurities about being wrong. Very defensive, nobody could tell me anything. A very UNATTRACTIVE trait.

In BLU post I bolded attract, well a lot of things we do as LBS are unattractive, and we have to become attractive again. So, by becoming AMOAFWL, you are ultimately becoming a very attractive person again. Pursing, lack of confidence, being cocky, manipulation, neediness, clingy, being the victim, defensiveness, insecure, and sad/angry are all unattractive. Do the opposite! Study validation and AS "detacting with LOVE". And put into practice Sandi's 2x4!

The words I underlined is the best POSSIBLE way to get your W back. This is the same for all LBS. You want your W to come back, you must let go and work on [[i]b]YOURSELF[/b[/i]]!

[HrtHsbnd]

Thank you!

I will make sure I do them

HH,

The things I bolded are the same things that most LBS struggle with.

The things I italicized are action words, you must do those things. Most LBS have to do the same things. It's a constant theme. I have been here almost 2 years now and have seen the same story repeat over and over, just different characters. And having too much confidence is called being cocky! Being cocky over time can be very damaging. Examine that part of your life and reflect on how much damage you may have possibly caused. I had to call a lot of people to apologize after some deep self reflection. My cockiest was really me being a know it all, and ultimately I had a lot of insecurities about being wrong. Very defensive, nobody could tell me anything. A very UNATTRACTIVE trait.

In BLU post I bolded attract, well a lot of things we do as LBS are unattractive, and we have to become attractive again. So, by becoming AMOAFWL, you are ultimately becoming a very attractive person again. Pursing, lack of confidence, being cocky, manipulation, neediness, clingy, being the victim, defensiveness, insecure, and sad/angry are all unattractive. Do the opposite! Study validation and AS "detacting with LOVE". And put into practice Sandi's 2x4!

The words I underlined is the best POSSIBLE way to get your W back. This is the same for all LBS. You want your W to come back, you must let go and work on [[i]b]YOURSELF[/b[/i]]!

[sandi2]

IMHO, the things that mostly set the WW from the WAW are the following:

The WW is the result of her holding unresolved resentment (anger) in her heart against her H. This resentment turns to feelings (and behavior) of disrespect toward her H. Anger and disrespect fuel her rebellion. In her wayward mindset, selfishness takes front & center and is her primary motivator. When she has an affair, leaves her H, or acts like GGW, lies, denies, and keeps a hidden agenda........it comes from these areas. The WW's heart can be described as cold & hard.

The WAW, IMHO, does not have the cold, selfish heart of the WW. She is not directed by selfishness. She does not have a hidden agenda that involves an affair or random sexual partners. You don't see her moral integrity dip, like you see in a WW. She doesn't go crazy, try to dress and act like a teenager, or act like GGW. She doesn't breakup the family out of sheer selfishness. She either leaves b/c her H is abusive; is imprisoned; involved in some type of illegal activity; is too controlling, jealous, etc; has an addiction........or something that pushes her to leave him in order to survive. In other words, her leaving can be seen as justifiable.

The MLCW is based on fear. It may be defined by some tragedy or abuse when she was growing up, where she received no therapy or loving support to help her deal with the experience. She tried to go on with her life, but at some point something happens to trigger her buried fear/anger that is linked with her past. Sometimes a recent death of someone close can trigger her fear of getting older and dying. Her overt behaviors resemble the WW.......but they are two different women.

These are three different women.........three different hearts.