Making the best of the mess.

[unchien]

How can the LBS know they want to R unless they get a little closer to the WS and see what is on offer? How can the WS decide if they do want to R unless they get a little closer to the LBS and see what has changed?

This is why R sounds so daunting and impossible to me. As you put it so well, it doesn't work if you go into the process assuming it is a return to the old MR. It *has* to be like dating somebody new, which also includes starting off without M expectations. Incredibly awkward when you have a long history with somebody...

You also put it so well that both the LBS and the WAS need to see what is on offer, and what has changed? My W has been clear in MC what has hurt her so much, and I do hope over time to address those hurts. But I also need to see that she is willing to come to the table, and I need to understand whether she is going to approach this with an open heart and mind, or else this will not a relationship worth pursuing for me. What keeps me positive is at least we are in MC where I can assess whether things are changing over time, or whether she continues to blame me 100% for the MR failure.

[AlisonUK]

I think that's the paradox of letting go of the rope. The old relationship needs to be fully and properly dead and grieved for and both of you integrate the changes that happen for you as a result of that, before a new relationship can be embarked upon and considered.

I know I won't feel happy to R with H until and unless I see what has changed and what he is willing to offer. I'm not even looking his way at the moment, out of self-protection - and perhaps that is how it will stay for us.

[97Hope]

The problem in my sitch is that H is still clinging to the old R. He wants to talk about it all the time. I know I've mentioned earlier but I put a stop to that. I validated and validated his feelings, but it got to a point where it was just another list of my failures and I told them that I was not interested in hearing it anymore given that he was "done". (his words).

He said that he could respect that. Now he likes to talk about old times with anyone who will listen. I also feel him reaching out to me sometimes. It's very hard not to respond to that.


We MUST keep our expectations at zero to fully detach. Heck, sometimes I keep them at negative zero (not sure it's healthy or helpful) but when he comes over I imagine that he will be in the most foul mood and I gird my loins. I've yet to be disappointed with that approach because if he is sunshine and daisies, I am thrilled, if he's crabby and cranky, well, I'm girded up and I can respond appropriately.

I have told him (twice that I can remember) that I will not be spoken to in that way when he was rude. I was calm and just said, "I don't like it when you speak to me like that, if you can't be polite, you will have to leave". Guess what? He apologized and turned it around.

Had he left, I would have been fine, too.

Dilly, actually - everyone reading - this is not a perfect process. I've blown it more times than I can count. But I love the feeling of being able to manage my emotions and it was worth the 2 years DBing to get here. Keep doing what is working, and stop doing what isn't working. That is a major point I got from the books. Also, I still keep Sandi's Rules on standby.

I want to thank you all for contributing to this convo. It's really beautiful how much we are learning about ourselves and each other.

[dillydaf]

It is beautiful, thank you Hope I like the negative expectations, as an optimist I should practice that I think. And I have to practice the standing up for myself with the rudeness and the R talks, you're so right that after a certain stage validating their complaints probably just reinforces their thinking instead of moving on.
Keep on keeping on, sounds like it's currently working for you x

[97Hope]

Dilly it's a switch for me - I am an eternal optimist. The optimism I reserve for myself - I can control. But him, well, my name says it all - I hope we are able to have a R in the future, but I'm not waiting for it or setting my anchor to it.

Just spent 2 days with him working on these down trees. I'm feeling like it was too much time right now. He just left and I am glad he's not coming back. Being around him as things are I prefer to take in small doses. I realized while he was out of town that I was way more calm.

So I'm still working on regulating around him. Not as detached as I need/would like to be.

[dillydaf]

I know how you feel hope, that is a lot of time together and sounds like you need a break from him. They're not the only ones needing space...I like your idea of saving your optimism for yourself

[Destroyd]

Hope, I am a conflicted optimist too. I always think that things are getting better between my wife and me, and then we go to MC and she tells the counselor that nothing is getting better. Then I am crushed. I have been stopping the MC sessions, but without them I never know if things are getting better or I am just being delusionally optimistic.

[BluWave]

This is a great conversation, and one that has had me thinking over the last couple days. It is confusing because while we are all in (or were) the same situation, there are also differences. The reason I tend to guide people back to Sandi's rules, is because that is a template that applies to all of us (whether we have a walkaway, a wayward, or despite how much time has passed). I think by the time people get here they are usually in the LRT and need to go dark, and Sandi's rules take that into account. You can follow the rules and not initiate any contact, and when there is contact, it is a simple guide on how to be pleasant (so they want to come back), however it is also important to be (act) detached, so they get the idea you could be moving on. I don't know how many of us ever reach "detachment," because let's face it, we are posting here because we want to save our M (ie still attached or at least attached to the idea of them). I see detachment as a goal with many levels, not something you can turn on or off, and something we might need to fake until we make it. I don't know if people ever fully achieve it until the M is dead and gone and they have moved on to other Rs in their life.

The main question I am gathering in this convo is an interesting one and posters might have varying opinions on. How can you drop the rope and go dark, while simultaneously reminding them of what they are missing, so they want to come back? My thought on that is that you don't need to remind them or show them anything. They know. They might rewrite history and paint you to be the "bad guy," but that is more what they do to justify their actions, and not necessarily a core belief. I think having time together, family time, and allowing cake does more damage than good, and it outweighs the benefits of them feeling a loss of you. It is when they feel they have lost you, that they want to come back. It is strange indeed. When you allow the positive time together, you send the message that you are okay with the way things are and also that you are still plan B. No one wants plan B when they can have plan A! They might seem at times that they do -- when they temp check, text, flirt, seem affectionate or give you those sad puppy dog eyes (my H did that cr-p all along) -- but they are not coming back because you remind them of the time. They simply take that time, maybe even get an ego boost, and then retain plan A.

Think about it, if a man leaves his W and home for OW, and he still gets to have a nice relationship with his W and enjoy family time, why would he even want to end the A (or simple freedom if there is no longer A) and come back? He doesn't need to. He gets the benefit of having his own place, his freedom and doing whatever he wants, while also having the benefit of dates and family time when he feels like it. Simultaneously, he loses respect for his W. If she allows this, she is sending the message that she doesn't value herself enough to demand more in the relationship. It shows weakness and low confidence. That is not attractive to anyone. A strong and confident woman is not okay with her H leaving her and then coming and going as he pleases. She is naturally hurt and angry and she puts up boundaries to protect herself. She demands respect. She flips the scripts and makes him do the work of having to show her why she should even consider taking back. It took me 9-10 months to get it and once I did, it worked immediately.

That does not mean she should be cold, bitter or play hard to get. I would never suggest that. Perhaps indifferent at times or simply too busy to be bothered with him, yes, but angry or emotional, no. That was one of the mistakes that I made. I started off serving up cake and being desperate and needy. I allowed him to have family time, R talks and he saw my emotional process and instability. Then I did a 180 swung in the other direction and ignored him and showed him indifference, but with coldness and bitterness. It wasn't until I completely took my focus off of him and started to move on with my life without him, that things changed. I was showing him that I could be cordial and pleasant, but that I was detached and not interested in him anymore. He saw that I removed myself from plan B.

And I GAL and became F-cking Fabulous. I looked, walked, and dressed the part and had no time for him at all anymore. AND IT FELT AMAZING TOO! I will never forget the Firday evening he came to the house for the kids and I was dressed up, looking hot, and ready to go out. I held my head up high. I was also pleasant, and said hello back to him, but wasted no time. I quickly loved on my kids and said goodbye and then confidently got out of there. Wouldn't you know he followed me to my car and kept trying to hold a conversation? I was polite, listened and smiled, but really, dude, I have to go out and do other things! Bye bye now. .... He looked like he had been punched in the gut ....

Does this make more sense? .... Ladies, remove yourself from Plan B and be the best gosh d-amn Plan A. Let him go and don't bother with him. If he likes what he sees, he should be so lucky for you to reconsider him. Then he needs to actually do the work.

The old M is dead. You cannot hang on to that and go back to it now. You also cannot simply pretend it never existed and start dating them again as tho they are a new person in your life. The history is there, it is painful, and it will need to be addressed. That is why piecing is it's own struggle. You have to build a new R together while fleshing out the problems of the last one. You need two strong people that are 100% in it to tackle this kind of work.

Blu

[AlisonUK]

These are wise and helpful words, Blu.

I think I am swinging rapidly into coldness. I know I am polite when I see my H, and I know I could be warmer, but I'm just brisk and civil. I concentrate on the children and sometimes I even refuse to make eye contact with him. It's because I am hurt and angry with him, and at the moment a stone thick wall is the healthiest thing I can manage. I hope the civil interactions we had this weekend over Youngest's birthday are a turning corner, but it is only two weeks since his last tantrum in my house, so there's been no time at all for him to turn over the new leaf that I require if he's to be permitted any closer to my heart.

[97Hope]

Think about it, if a man leaves his W and home for OW, and he still gets to have a nice relationship with his W and enjoy family time, why would he even want to end the A (or simple freedom if there is no longer A) and come back? He doesn't need to. He gets the benefit of having his own place, his freedom and doing whatever he wants, while also having the benefit of dates and family time when he feels like it. Simultaneously, he loses respect for his W. If she allows this, she is sending the message that she doesn't value herself enough to demand more in the relationship. It shows weakness and low confidence. That is not attractive to anyone. A strong and confident woman is not okay with her H leaving her and then coming and going as he pleases. She is naturally hurt and angry and she puts up boundaries to protect herself. She demands respect. She flips the scripts and makes him do the work of having to show her why she should even consider taking back. It took me 9-10 months to get it and once I did, it worked immediately.

Blu,

I value your opinion immensely - so here's the thing. I am not hurt and angry anymore. I was at first but ironically, I have my own place, my freedom and I do whatever the heck I want. I'm enjoying this time immensely more than I would have guessed. I'm more confident, and definitely stronger. H has commented on this a LOT. He's naturally drawn to it. I can see it and feel it. I didn't feel this way at first, I was sad and wrecked and all that stuff, but I didn't show him that. Now, it's not an act at all. I really feel - good. At peace. In control of myself and able to manage my emotions.

I'm not trying to seem argumentative, I'm just wondering if you think should I force a NC boundary when I don't need it? Should I go all the way and not let him come over for family time and tell him no when he asks me out? I'm quite enjoying myself, and don't always accept the invites.

In the meantime, I am going to evaluate myself. I want to be sure that I am not accepting less-than. I feel good about where I am, but I hear you when you say a confident woman wouldn't accept this sitch.

Would love to hear your thoughts.