I think, actually I know women go through more life changes and transitions than men. I would think especially more towards the late thirties early forties as their fertility lessen. they probably ask themselves especially after taking care of children aging parents and sacrificing themselves for their husbands and their families what more is there to life and what do I want to do hence the midlife crisis, or in a more healthy terms midlife transition. Again I can understand how a codependent relationship can lead to a loss of identity and purpose, I just can't understand how it got there in the first place, and why it is rarely expressed in the relationship, and the significance of the relationship until it is too late. How can we be better men at understanding these things recognizing them, and addressing them before they become a major marital problem? How can we use met tell when our spouses are truly happy rather than just pretending to be happy? Because the way it appears to us is the transition comes on very suddenly because we failed to recognize the warning signs.
I think that sounds really wacko, sorry to say. I'm not even sure what they are trying to accomplish. As far as "lost my identity", I think that's a catchall phrase for quite a bit. For me, I never used that term, but, what I did realize is that in the 27 years of my M, most of it was trying to not make waves, smooth things over, and I gave up a lot of the things I liked to do because my H didn't support me. For example, I wanted to FOR YEARS, take a vacation to Alaska or Yellowstone. I used to tell H that Denali National Park was on my bucket list. His response? "Send me a postcard". So, I stopped telling him those dreams and just planned vacations he would enjoy. I usually did too, but would have liked to do so much more. I was also a career woman, and became a stay at home mom for about 14 years. Did I "lose my identify?" No, it was there all the time, but I just didn't nurture it. I'm doing that now, because I'm not using all my energy to try to fix a broken person. I also think some use the 'lost my identity" as an excuse for just not wanting to work things out. It's easier to blame it on something else.
As far as women who are separated or divorced and attempting in finding love in their life, finding and redefining their identity, and they're authentic self, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it why a woman or how a woman would lose her identity in a relationship, and why all of them self described as if they are walking on eggshells? Particularly in mine, and others situations?
I believe women who have abusive or very overbearing H's feel they have to walk on eggshells, b/c the least thing can set him off......so they live in that nervous dread of the next explosion.
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To some degree I can understand how they would lose their identity in a very codependent relationship, and I can understand how a lot of women at times can be people pleaser, never setting proper boundaries, being authenticly vulnerable, and assertive in their wants and needs.
I think these are situations where people feel suppressed, or don't have the courage to be the person they want to be. Perhaps they have not had the opportunity to develop some areas of their life. I suppose we all have certain things that hold us back to some extent. We have to have boundaries and act civilized, and if we are going to be in a loving relationship.....it can't be about us all the time. It has to be about our spouse. I just don't think losing one's identity or "finding yourself" is a proper definition. Too many people use it to mean too many things.
We have these popular catch-phrases that spouses use as their reasoning for breaking up a marriage. In WW terms, "finding herself" really means to ditch the H. Personally, I think people go through transitions. Some may refer to positive transition as growth or reinventing themselves (another catch phrase). This "needing to find oneself" might apply to someone who has suffered traumatic mental/emotional distress, IDK. However, if we are referring to the usual WW we find here on the board and her giving the excuse of needing to find her own identity, I think is b.s. I mean, is there nothing else she can do to help her find her "authentic self"?
This is the same message they were giving women back in the '70's. Women were told to not refer to themselves as Mrs. So & So, b/c that was her H's name, not her's. Women need their own identity. It was part of the equality movement. There were bra burning rallies. SAHM's is an updated term. They use to be called "housewives", until they were ridiculed for staying home and raising a family. They were told they weren't happy, b/c nobody could be happy being a housewife! They needed to ditch their H, and find a career b/c they were not living up to their full potential. Go find themselves! Otherwise, they were nothing more than a servant to their H and kids. So, whether intended or not, the marriage and family/home life took a serious hit. It was everywhere on television. The talk shows, the movies, magazines, etc. were all spreading the same propaganda. Families were breaking up left & right. The same message is being bought today. Women were told they could "have it all", which was a lie. Today, women have so much it's too heavy to bear the weight.
I don't think a woman would lose her identity in a normal MR, unless she had a mental problem. I've seen some women who I thought did not feel they could express their personality as freely as they would like, but they knew who they were. I've known a few who were beaten down emotionally and physically, but they knew who they were. Once they got out of the abusive situation, they flourished and it might have appeared they had a new identity.....but they knew who they were.
I agree with Grace. I think finding her authentic self is garbage. It seems handy for some people to use as an excuse to forsake the vows, morals, spiritual beliefs, and live like the wind that has no direction.......all in the name of finding themselves.
As for the article.......it's pretty cheesy. I've never been to a meetup event, but do they have people trained in these areas? Are there psychologists on the scene of these meetups? I mean, that is coating it pretty thick. It kind of reminds me of some MR books I've seen advertised.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think, actually I know women go through more life changes and transitions than men. I would think especially more towards the late thirties early forties as their fertility lessen. they probably ask themselves especially after taking care of children aging parents and sacrificing themselves for their husbands and their families what more is there to life and what do I want to do hence the midlife crisis, or in a more healthy terms midlife transition. Again I can understand how a codependent relationship can lead to a loss of identity and purpose, I just can't understand how it got there in the first place, and why it is rarely expressed in the relationship, and the significance of the relationship until it is too late. How can we be better men at understanding these things recognizing them, and addressing them before they become a major marital problem? How can we use met tell when our spouses are truly happy rather than just pretending to be happy? Because the way it appears to us is the transition comes on very suddenly because we failed to recognize the warning signs.
I have heard many married women say they want to be more than a wife and mother when they seem something elsewhere . The cause I believe or the truth is most likely what Grace and Sandi quote. There has and does seem to be some sort of prolonged media agenda being propagated . Why ? I am unsure but it seems to be there .
Sandi: "I believe women who have abusive or very overbearing H's feel they have to walk on eggshells, b/c the least thing can set him off......so they live in that nervous dread of the next explosion."
Sandi I can totally understand that from a woman's perspective, and my W'S and sympathise with it, being as emotionally frustrated and fluctuating as I am with some circumstances of life. I can see how I was overbearing in some areas, and yet understanding in others. Especially when it came to division of labor. I can actually see from my W's perspective how at times under stress and frustration how in some moments she would have to walk on eggshells in silence, I could have been unintentionally emotionally arrogant, stubborn, and unshakeable in my own perceptions and beliefs in the past which I am attempting to 180 on. Not that it matters at this point. Damage is already done.
I'm glad however that you do see through the Women's Lib movement. I am not saying a Woman even needs to depend on a Man or a Husband if that is what they choose. If Women would prefer their independence, pursuit of happiness, life and purpose beyond marriage and divorce, then have at it. Who am I to tell anyone how to feel, what to pursue, and what goals, dreams, desires, what is right, and what decisions to make.
I've read a lot of self-help stuff throughout the years as well, and continue to do so. There is nothing wrong with changing, improving, and taking different directions in life when needed. But again like yourself, I think a lot of this self empowerment stuff, although well meaning, and sometimes helpful, but is I'm some form, nothing more than polished sales tactics, fancily crafted wording geared torward women, that is ungrounded in reality, offering hope and promise of a new life, a new transition, a new beginning, to those that are desperate to change for the better, that have left their old lives behind, including their marriages for promises of something greater. IMO the self help community sells. It sells to men and women alike in the information age. The trend I notice with society from now, going back to the depression era, the difference being, everyone is on a mission to improve themselves, feel better, do more, be more, accomplish more, being overloaded more, distracted more, and demanded more of. Your right Sandi. Its already too much for men and women to bear the weight. The odd thing is about today in the 21st century in comparison with the 20th century is, some of us are accomplishing more but the majority of us are accomplishing less. I'm guilty of this too, as some of us read too much and do too little. Our time is consumed by the practicalities of life. Some manage it better than others. Some of us achieve our goals and dreams, and some just start it and give up.
to subscribe to guru's, . I did notice that the trend is that it is focused more on the self and Independence, then it is on a sacrifice and commitment. I think it works for some, and not for others, like everything else we follow and choose. Even DB is somewhat of a guru subscription. But it is unprecedented that's for sure. It suits our agendas, because MWD has seen through the empty promises of D, and the lies that it offers, and what it does to families. It doesn't get easier, it gets harder. But then again, that all depends on an individual's perception, and experience.
I have to wince a bit when I read comments that include "because women" or "because men" statements. I know that it maybe comforting to think that the situations we find ourselves in are caused by socio-cultural shifts in our world, but thinking this way will always create tendency to take us off track as to why we find ourselves in our situations. It's easy to start believing in a media conspiracy, or some kind of absurdly large and abstract force that plays a large part in creating our suffering because it's easier to believe that a force beyond of our control is running the show. It's a form of psychological denial which temporarily alleviates the helplessness we feel when confronted with seemingly insurmountable obstacles to our happiness. However, it can become an intellectual trap that closes doors on self-reflection and brutally critical reasoning that needs to happen in order for us to become better people. It's true, there is always going to be problems with social movements because they are always messy affairs. But one has to be really careful that it is not a focus of the journey into our internal selves where the real work has to happen. The thing to always keep in my is that whatever we focus on expands to displace everything else.
I know. It's tempting to blame 'women's lib' or 'toxic masculinity' for what is happening to us. However, there is always a flip side to every coin. Often I hear the LBS talking about how their partner wants to crash out of the relationship while screaming "I need to find myself!", and often I see it dismissed as some kind of 'brain fart' and they should 'just snap out of it'... but I have been thinking about this for a very long time and how it pertains to my own situation (I have dismissed my W's statements to the effect at the beginning of my own sit), so hear me out.
Our need for an 'actualized identity' is very real. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that it is the most important part of us because it's literally who we are and where out self-esteem and motivations come from. For a person to lose their identity is a real crisis because the loss of 'self' is a catastrophic breakdown in our self-support system. I know that it has played a huge rule in my own situation as I have come to understand the loss of my own identity to co-dependence with my W.
When I first met my W I was an extremely fit, happy, out-going male who traveled all over the world, had a lot of friends and suitors. I loved who I was. I didn't think I was better than anyone, but I valued myself to a healthy degree. As I fell into my relationship and started a family I had to focus more on my career and became successful at it. It meant long hours at the studio, and less time dedicated to nurturing my own support systems (including my marriage). And because of the way I was brought up this is how I thought things are supposed to go - I substituted my own identity for something that was pushed on my be the environment I grew up in. Then I became unhappy and unfulfilled, and the rest is obvious history.
The point I'm trying to get at is that I could easily blame societal expectations on what happened to me because that's what was modeled to me as 'success'. However that wouldn't solve my problem. I had to look deep into myself and realize what was at the root of my situation wasn't what was expected of me as a 'family man'. The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
That is also the point of DBing; to find yourself, to become a fully actualized happy human being (look up Maslow's Hierarchy) so that you may have a chance at winning back the relationship with that person who thought you were special enough to have a life with you. That's where the work is. Blaming (wrongly or rightfully) a social concept is only going to keep us spinning in an endless intellectual loops to nowhere. They don't matter. This is why I wince at the first-mentioned statements; it's because they are just distractions away form the truth. It allows us to assign the blame to the next person and limit the efficacy of the work we ought to be doing.
The last point I'm going to make is that I no longer dismiss it when I hear my W, or anyone else, say "I need to find myself" or "I don't know who I am anymore". I realize now that this is a cry for help from a person who is hurting a tremendous amount, who wants to find the happiness they once had, or maybe never had. This deserves my respect because it is an incredibly brave act. To risk everything at the chance to break away from unhappiness IS worthy of respect, and is NOT as selfish an act as it seems. I know, it doesn't do anything to minimize our own hurt and resentment. Not at first. But, ultimately, it does obligate me meet this person with compassion give as much support as I can to them because everybody has a right to be happy, and because we don't own people we care about. They don't owe us to stay with us at the expense of their own identity and happiness. That is the underlying truth that, I think, is that the root of DBing and letting go, and what blaming 'women's lib' obscures. And so I wince.
Last edited by MarcPa; 04/21/1903:52 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity
IHCLACS, I'm gonna bottom-line it for you. If you want to have a chance at get back with your wife let her have a chance at finding her happiness. Be supportive of that by accepting that you have to let her go. Don't dismiss her feelings, or blame what is happening to her on 'this or that'. Blame will not bring her closer to you. Rather, understand her pain. Respect her as a human being. Work to forgive her, and your self. Validate her feelings. And most importantly, don't make this about you. She doesn't owe you your happiness at the expense of her own. Once you understand this I guarantee that you will find the peace that comes with grace, and you will have a better chance than anything of getting her back.
I have to wince a bit when I read comments that include "because women" or "because men" statements. I know that it maybe comforting to think that the situations we find ourselves in are caused by socio-cultural shifts in our world, but thinking this way will always create tendency to take us off track as to why we find ourselves in our situations. It's easy to start believing in a media conspiracy, or some kind of absurdly large and abstract force that plays a large part in creating our suffering because it's easier to believe that a force beyond of our control is running the show. It's a form of psychological denial which temporarily alleviates the helplessness we feel when confronted with seemingly insurmountable obstacles to our happiness. However, it can become an intellectual trap that closes doors on self-reflection and brutally critical reasoning that needs to happen in order for us to become better people. It's true, there is always going to be problems with social movements because they are always messy affairs. But one has to be really careful that it is not a focus of the journey into our internal selves where the real work has to happen. The thing to always keep in my is that whatever we focus on expands to displace everything else.
I know. It's tempting to blame 'women's lib' or 'toxic masculinity' for what is happening to us. However, there is always a flip side to every coin. Often I hear the LBS talking about how their partner wants to crash out of the relationship while screaming "I need to find myself!", and often I see it dismissed as some kind of 'brain fart' and they should 'just snap out of it'... but I have been thinking about this for a very long time and how it pertains to my own situation (I have dismissed my W's statements to the effect at the beginning of my own sit), so hear me out.
Our need for an 'actualized identity' is very real. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that it is the most important part of us because it's literally who we are and where out self-esteem and motivations come from. For a person to lose their identity is a real crisis because the loss of 'self' is a catastrophic breakdown in our self-support system. I know that it has played a huge rule in my own situation as I have come to understand the loss of my own identity to co-dependence with my W.
When I first met my W I was an extremely fit, happy, out-going male who traveled all over the world, had a lot of friends and suitors. I loved who I was. I didn't think I was better than anyone, but I valued myself to a healthy degree. As I fell into my relationship and started a family I had to focus more on my career and became successful at it. It meant long hours at the studio, and less time dedicated to nurturing my own support systems (including my marriage). And because of the way I was brought up this is how I thought things are supposed to go - I substituted my own identity for something that was pushed on my be the environment I grew up in. Then I became unhappy and unfulfilled, and the rest is obvious history.
The point I'm trying to get at is that I could easily blame societal expectations on what happened to me because that's what was modeled to me as 'success'. However that wouldn't solve my problem. I had to look deep into myself and realize what was at the root of my situation wasn't what was expected of me as a 'family man'. The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
That is also the point of DBing; to find yourself, to become a fully actualized happy human being (look up Maslow's Hierarchy) so that you may have a chance at winning back the relationship with that person who thought you were special enough to have a life with you. That's where the work is. Blaming (wrongly or rightfully) a social concept is only going to keep us spinning in an endless intellectual loops to nowhere. They don't matter. This is why I wince at the first-mentioned statements; it's because they are just distractions away form the truth. It allows us to assign the blame to the next person and limit the efficacy of the work we ought to be doing.
The last point I'm going to make is that I no longer dismiss it when I hear my W, or anyone else, say "I need to find myself" or "I don't know who I am anymore". I realize now that this is a cry for help from a person who is hurting a tremendous amount, who wants to find the happiness they once had, or maybe never had. This deserves my respect because it is an incredibly brave act. To risk everything at the chance to break away from unhappiness IS worthy of respect, and is NOT as selfish an act as it seems. I know, it doesn't do anything to minimize our own hurt and resentment. Not at first. But, ultimately, it does obligate me meet this person with compassion give as much support as I can to them because everybody has a right to be happy, and because we don't own people we care about. They don't owe us to stay with us at the expense of their own identity and happiness. That is the underlying truth that, I think, is that the root of DBing and letting go, and what blaming 'women's lib' obscures. And so I wince.
I still don't know how you Lose yourself . Happiness comes from within sure. They have lost that and that I can accept. The part I struggle with is I think they can find themselves and stay married instead of giving up . Most women are the ones who really dream of being married and having the married like after all. Like I said if they need time to work on themselves or whatever the issue at hand is thats fine but you dont need to walk away from your vows for that. You know the ones which said for better or worse, till death do us part? Well they meant something in the olden days. I understand this new era isn't the same I get it. My core values and my soul are marriage is forever. Thats just who I am. I guess i need to find a partner that shares that logic. Not one that said them just to say them or really said
The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
Great post. This particularly is something I've focused on for the past several months--probably since the divorce was finalized. It's not about becoming a new person. I have a lot of great qualities--qualities that my XW happened to fall in love with. Those include being generally positive, generous, genuine, loyal, and easy going. Step #1 was to get back to the person I was at the beginning of the relationship. Step #2 was to 180 on my bad qualities. The key part is being able recognize them. Step #3 was to start doing things that I haven't always been comfortable with. I have made strides in all three areas, but I still have a long ways to go.
bubbs - People change with time. They evolve, while their partner changes too. Circumstances transform in unanticipated ways. But I get what you're saying bubbs. It feels like you were cheated because you believe in your vow more strongly than your partner did, and that's hard to take. However, didn't your vows also include honoring, cherishing, and making your partner happy? Mine did. And that's the dilemma - which supersedes the other. Is her happiness less important than mine. Believe me, I get it. I struggled with this too. I was raised Catholic. A vow is supposed to be a vow. But then I asked myself this question; would I be happy knowing that my partner is miserable? Is that how I express my love for my partner? By capturing her in misery? Shouldn't I let go of an unhappy marriage for the love of other? Do we withhold agency from the ones we love for fear of losing our own happiness? What does 'loving unconditionally' really mean to me?
Last edited by MarcPa; 04/21/1905:38 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity
SAHM's is an updated term. They use to be called "housewives", until they were ridiculed for staying home and raising a family. They were told they weren't happy, b/c nobody could be happy being a housewife! They needed to ditch their H, and find a career b/c they were not living up to their full potential. Go find themselves! Otherwise, they were nothing more than a servant to their H and kids. So, whether intended or not, the marriage and family/home life took a serious hit. It was everywhere on television. The talk shows, the movies, magazines, etc. were all spreading the same propaganda. Families were breaking up left & right. The same message is being bought today. Women were told they could "have it all", which was a lie. Today, women have so 