WAS or WHAT 11

[roist]

Previous post was sent inadvertently before finished..............

I have just read this thread. I can't believe it is over a year since I started it. Beginning to think that my situation is in line for a prize as one of the slowest moving here on the site!! There is a good and a bad side to that. I will focus on the good side but admit wondering about if a BD is down the road. I said wondering as opposed to stressing. Que sera sera. Whatever will be will be. It would sadden me that it ends after all this time, but I imagine I will embrace the opportunities and possibilities of such a situation. That's the advantage of having already mourned my M!!

But here I am for now. I believe I see clearly my situation and my W. I know things are not how I want and W isn't someone I enjoy spending time with right now. BUT I still see and believe in her potential. As long as that potential exists, my stand makes sense to me.

The reason for coming here today is to take some notes for future reference and also to help me ponder on my side of things. Recently W, during moments where the kids or life have overwhelmed her (as happens to most people anyway just more often in MLCland), she has stated things like:
# "I haven't bought a new trousers in months and does it not bother anyone else that I don't have any jeans to wear" I will say that I am lucky my W does not excessively spend on clothes etc, but she does buy more often than me. My first reaction was to say that, but I held back. In the end, I just let it slide and didn't even empathise. Ah those missed opportunities. And she has loads of pants, tracksuits, skirts and dresses so being jeanless doesn't mean she has nothing to wear. TBH I thought she still had some jeans (and probably does).
# Last week at dinner, the boys were hyper. Nothing major but definitely not an enjoyable time. As I was reprimanding my eldest she stormed off to our room. She is often the picture of patience with the boys and has invested largely in learning communications skills and other aspects of parenting. I sent son to his room. She came back. When son was allowed back things were better but she said that such interactions especially at mealtimes are not enjoyable for HER and asked does anyone care about that. She went on to specify that no one comforted her and not only the kids.

I could list other examples but in essence she is feeling self-pity and looking for us and ME to comfort her. I have tried that in the past and if she got upset I would go see if there was anything she wanted to talk about or for me to do to help. Invariably I was shut out. So now I just observe, sometimes emphatise but mostly ignore any "woe is me" episodes. This approach seems contrary to my overall view on how I would like things to be but is now driven from a place where I am not motivated to be the one to work on the M.

I welcome any thoughts on this.

I could be wrong but I think things are heading somewhere, where a R chat could be down the line. This is just an impression but not something that I am progressing towards. I won't be starting one, anyway. For me at the moment I have put the M aside and am focusing on other stuff. Plus I am not around as much as before. I have always given her space since I started this journey, but now I am taking more and more space for ME, but not as a tactic. I just enjoy non W stuff more. The more I push for W-free time, she finds ways to become part of some of that! I can see that and mostly am open to it, but will admit not always. I don't think that I am fun to be around for her, but still she seems to want my presence. That is what is interesting and confusing about my situation. It isn't clear but I believe in time it will become clearer because choices will be made one way or another. So whilst giving it somemore time, I observe the potential and carry on with my life as much as possible.

Thanks for reading

[roist]

More noting for future reference, though appreciate any viewpoints that ye as onlookers could give:

My W's unhappiness seems to be ramping up or at least she is being more verbal about it:

Last night at dinner she told us that often when she meets people and says she's married with two sons, they often say how lucky she is as she lust be treated like a princess having three guys at the house. The meaning was a little lost on my sons and they acted their age and let's say she felt even less princesslike! Me, I didn't rise to the comments. Over the last few years I have come to not reply to anything like that in front of the kids or on other occasions if said to the kids with me in earshot. Unless it disrepects me and even then I often wait until the boys are out of earshot to pull her up on it.

anyway, it isn't the first time that she has made reference to being treated like a princess, or rather not being treated like one. I gather she would prefer to be.

Earlier on in my crisis, a fellow poster here called me a rock. he meant it as a compliment. This situation made me feel like one, though I am not sure it is such a good thing. I observe the turmoil, her comments etc and they flow past. They do not change me nor do I react.

Five years ago we were not in a great place and I didn't really care about M. Then I did and decided to do whatever it took to save it. What an eye opener that was. The efforts I put into learning as much as I could and putting it into practice. However over time, I have settled into observing, knowing she isn't YET ready for anything more. Each week or maybe even daily I smile at myself after a poor interaction and laughinlgly say to myself "not ready yet".

But I am not made of stone and I am not as solid as a rock. I am no longer as saddened by my situation but I find it sad to watch her struggle and not interact more lovingly. I think I am in a phase of avoidance. I prefer doing other stuff without her so that's what I do mostly. I am sure she has noticed a huge difference over the last six months in me. I am not cold but not overly warm either. whenever there are poor interactions I tend to go get busy elsewhere. Last week she followed me and stated that my storming off in anger wasn't a solution. I calmly replied I wasn't angry but didn't appreciate her tone and wasn't interested in prolonging the situation.

Four years ago I was willing and able to discuss anything with her. That was a huge 180 for me. But it wasn't time. Now I am not sure I would be able to really discuss important stuff with her. I believe I could relearn this skill but for now it is redundant. TBH I probably fear reconciliation more than I do separation, as I see how much work that would be for us and for ME.

What all this rambling made me think about is that after all this time, we seem to have arrived back where it all began. I am not the same person as was then though. I am no longer blind to our interactions etc. Last sunday I was out on a club day and it doesn't take me long to pick up on couples whos interactions are "not ideal" and it gives me pleasure to see others that are. I seemed to have really honed in on that. If I was inclined to I could easily pinpoint the wives, least happy with their H. I imagine some people do that. As for my own interactions with W, I put less and less attention on it. People can see what they see. Before I used to want to keep up appearances. Now I don't. That being said apart from probably a little less chatty our interactions are not negative.

I am not sure that there is anything much more than obseve that I can do for the moment, but if anyone thinks otherwise, I welcome your views.

Have a good day. Thanks for reading

[AndrewP]

Good morning roist. I don't believe that I've ever posted to you before despite our paths crossing many times. I know very little about your history so keep that in mind please.

I personally believe that most people don't change. Not that they "can't" change but that true change is very difficult. From what I've read you put out an extra effort with a particular goal in mind and now you're tired. You are returning to the you that you were. It's a thing. Neither good nor bad. We are counseled here to change and adapt and "do the 180" but really, all that only matters if those changes are fundamental. Which is very hard and quite rare.

You sound tired. Rather than as a rock, you've been carrying both sides for quite a long time. It's ok that you are now tired. It makes perfect sense.

For your W - she's undoubtedly not changed either. Each of your personalities are probably reverting to the old ways and the old patterns. The issues that were there before are still there under the veneer.

As far as what to do now and going forward - those choices are your's alone. I honestly don't know enough to be able to provide any reasonable advice.

[roist]

Thanks Andrew, I appreciate a fresh perspective and I hear what you are saying and it is logical. I do believe you posted to me once before, at which time you said that she may never change. It is a possibility.

However being the quiet observer that I have been, I have noticed changes. She has changed. I am not talking from when she changed from the attention-giving loving spouse, but within her own path she has changed and dare I say recently started to grow again. The changes are subtle but her state of mind is better than earlier. she is showing interest in other stuff now and some of it is quite positive.

I definitely have changed. Whereas some of our interactions and patterns may be similar to pre-crisis buildup, I believe that fundamentally the differences are important. I have changed and now my decisions are coming from a much healthier place. I am also confident that I will have a bright future regardless of how this turns out. However I am not the H I want to be nor do I treat her like the princess she seems to want to be treated like. A simple fix then would appear to be that H and treat her like a princess, but I can't now. I could but ......

Anyway as for us, I have long accepted that if she ever does sort of her crisis "we" will be the last aspect of her life to change/improve. So as long as she appears to be showing slight improvements, the chance she is on the right path exists. By right path I mean one that could involve reconnection eventually.

But yes I am tired and although I know I could carry on for a long time yet, it interests me less. I am still standing but more passively. I am giving her the TIME and SPACE she needs. That I need too.

I could revamp my efforts regarding improving our R, but am curious to see where our current path leads. she does not openly mind my GAL activities but I get the impression she doesn't particularly like it either. Time will tell if this is good or bad. Worst case scenario I am setting up my life and activities for after, best case scenario she misses me and decides to work on us. Whereas I am not leaving that decision entirely up to her, she needs to reach a certain point for either to occur. Like a WAS who leaves, I believe that at some point a conscious decision to want to improve things needs to be made.

I had that moment 4.5 years ago!! It is powerful. I believe she needs to get to a place to make that decision. I cannot hand it to her.

Thanks again Andrew, I appreciate you dropping by and being openly honest. If others wish to do so, I welcome that too.

[HaWho]

Roist - sounds like you are okay with things right now as they are.

Keep up the GAL and keep building happiness for yourself.

[roist]

Hi Hawho,

Great to hear from you. Although I miss walking the path with you, I am glad you are out of the turmoil.

As for me, I am less okay than I thought. Having a hard time a the moment. Things are very strained at the moment and I don't even want to talk to her. Our boys are in preteen years and we are dealing with the normal stuff that goes with that.

I don't have the time to outline all the details, but in essence I have the impression my W often criticises me though sometimes very subtle. yes I know it is normal to be blamed/prejected upon, but over time that becomes less supportable.

Last night we had a bit of a battle with our eldest son, which in itself is hard to support. Then she criticises my suggested course of action. I tried to explain but she PROJECTED it back to me. I told her calmly that my idea was not so bad and almost every time we have such issues she finds a way to be critical of me. She said she wasn't critical but just discussing to find a solution. I replied that it didn't feel like a discussion but an attack. She said she was just annoyed (at situation with son).

Anyway I am getting tired of such interactions. Very tired. Ignoring them doesn't work. Neither does arguing. Nor empathy. Nor talking. Today I feel like the WAS. I just want this to end. The problem is that I don't see a better solution YET.

I come here when I feel down, rant a little and then type something to convince myself that it isn't all that bad. Always seeking that positive silver lining. Usually it helps

My W is also unhappier at the moment. Her princess comments are becoming insistent abut her not being treated like one. She seems genuinely surprised and taken back by this. Maybe in time she will stop blaming me and see if she could be contributing!!

My W often moans about interactions with some people. After which she sometimes asks if it's her or the other! Sometimes it is blatently her, but others it could be the other person.

I am nearing the end of my self-help rant!! I hope it helps because at the moment it feels like a pressure cooker.

Thanks for reading

[bttrfly]

hi Roist
I hope you're having an easier time of it. Maybe could you get a few days away, just you or you and the oldest? Call it a bonding weekend, but it might give you some distance?

Just a thought. Sending best wishes your way as always,
xoxoxo

[ForeverYoung]

Hi roist!

Beginning to think that my situation is in line for a prize as one of the slowest moving here on the site!!

Oh well, there goes my prize!

I could list other examples but in essence she is feeling self-pity and looking for us and ME to comfort her. I have tried that in the past and if she got upset I would go see if there was anything she wanted to talk about or for me to do to help. Invariably I was shut out. So now I just observe, sometimes emphatise but mostly ignore any "woe is me" episodes. This approach seems contrary to my overall view on how I would like things to be but is now driven from a place where I am not motivated to be the one to work on the M.

Anyway I am getting tired of such interactions. Very tired. Ignoring them doesn't work. Neither does arguing. Nor empathy. Nor talking. Today I feel like the WAS. I just want this to end. The problem is that I don't see a better solution YET.

You mentioned earlier that you avoid R talks. Don't. You've been busting for a long time. W isn't going anywhere, and it sounds like you are near done. Re-read Michele's chapter on "The Talk". (I think that's what's it called) Prepare your discussion and choose the right time to address as she advises. You don't have to do this right away, of course, but don't wait until you're "Done" and W doesn't have any chance at R.

[Gerda]

Roist, when I read your signature line, "She's still worth it," I get so happy. I think there is a lot of truth in that and there is some reason why you are still together.

From the far vantage point of reading your posts and knowing nothing, I will say that it looks like you are noticing everything she thinks of you and trying to change her. If she were a healthy, whole woman and a great partner to you in life and in raising your kids, you might be able to feel more clearly that you can't try to change her. Are you still GAL-ing? Or are you starting to fixate on what you don't have?

I see the doubts you are feeling as despair, and despair does not come from the Light.

Tweens and teens will exhaust anyone. I agree with the above, that you should take a trip with each son and have some serious bonding time and just enjoy each other without an agenda.

But here is one thing you might try -- I was just cleaning out stuff in trying to prepare half my place for renters since my H moved out, and I found something I wrote in 2013, before BD but on the way there. It was a list of "Expectations of My Husband That I Release." I still remember the website I found it on, a "Daughters of Sarah," kind of site. It was astonishing to read the list now. For example, number one -- "I expected my husband to be affectionate to me everyday." Or how about number 12 - "I expected my husband to take care of me when I was sick." How astonishing to think that I got cancer after that and he sure didn't take care of me!

But the point is, reading that now, I see that I released ALL of them. There are 16 on the list. I remember writing them and thinking with such longing of how much I wanted him to do them. I was still expecting them and feeling disappointed. Now I look at them and it seems impossible I would ever think of expecting any of them.

Honestly I can't imagine expecting them of any man ever!

But what I am trying to say is -- Try writing that list. You are supposed to put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself a year later. I cried when I saw on the envelope a note to mail it June 29, 2014. That poor former me! I didn't even know cancer was coming then, let alone all the adultery, the kids being abandoned, the DIVORCE!

But I am so proud of myself for how far I came, and I know that it really helped me to write those expectations down, release them, and FORGIVE. It's a decision you make everyday and I don't see how anyone can do it without God because no human can do it. It's not in our nature. But you can every morning go out to the trees or the lake or the sky and say, "HEY! I can't forgive her! I release my expectations and I release my anger to you! Take it! It's too much for me to bear! Help me forgive!" I think that one day you will realize you are a little less angry, and if you keep doing it, that will keep happening.

[roist]

Thanks FY. Great to hear from you. Wise words as usual.

Bttrfly, also good conseil. am thinking about it..... was already, but appreciate your input

Gerda, thank you for taking the time to write your long reply. Appreciate it, even if you did mix up the signature with that of foreveryoung! I am glad you can see how going through your experience has strengthened and improved you. I can see that too in myself. My despair as you call it comes from living a half-marriage. We live as a married couple in most aspects without the affection and support that should be there. I can understand her checking out and don't begrudge her doing that. It's the living with a HUGE WHITE ELEPHANT as if everything is normal that is not sitting well with me.

At the moment I have stepped further along my path of "not like this". Life is full of so much more that I am no longer interested in sharing poor interactions. I prefer go off and do something more fulfilling. So yes I am still GALing, moreso than ever! And as I distance myself, I have noticed that she follows/approaches. I am curious to where this is heading, and imagine well that she will initiate a R chat in the coming months. Probably not an ILY chat but to constate I am distant or some other poor behaviour. I have not spoken to her, because I feel she isn't ready to HEAR me, but think she isgetting there.

I am still standing because I believe in her potential and in our potential. In one of Michelles books she outlines a couple who see only the faults and errors of their spouse. The H outlines all he finds wrong with his W, as she did too, but ends up admitting that he has stayed because he believed in their potential to refind what they once had. That resonates with me. Whereas we are not in a very good place at the moment, there are signs that I am right to believe in that potential. So i inactively stand.

Best wishes fellow standers and crisis survivors.