How are these rules enforceable? If she sleeps with someone and you say it isnt "allowed", then what is the penalty? She loses your "undying affection" which she doesnt care about anyway right now? Dont think about trying to 'control' her with the 'rules' of the separation. If you are going to proceed with such a thing, I would recommend that you think of it as a time to figure out what you want and what is important to you. Dont give her all of the mindpower to decide whether she wants to be with you....why does it have to be a given that you are all in once the trial period is over?
Originally Posted by Kwandoku
If I'm trying to detach, is it bad for me to insist that we shouldn't be allowed to see other people during the separation? On the other hand, my boundaries as a man makes me think that would the ultimate betrayal, and not something I'm willing to accept.
The I think you are within your rights to lay it out there for her at the start. "If you sleep with someone, then I cant accept that from a partner. Crossing that line will mean the end of the marriage for me." But dont expect that she will change anything she does based on your boundaries. They are for YOU to control what you will accept....not to control what SHE does.
Today we had lunch with her brother in the city. I get along with my brother in law, well, like a brother. Have known him the entire time my wife and I have been together.
Out of nowhere she mentions that we are having problems and are looking to do a trial separation. He is the first person to hear of our troubles outside of us.
During the conversation I stood my ground and said that I don't think I should be the one to move out if she needs space. I wouldn't stop her from finding space, but I think that I should stay, since she's the one wanting out.
This feels so incredibly inappropriate to spring this on you like that in front of other people. Frankly, I would have shut that conversation down and said that I wasnt interested in discussing our marriage with an outsider at this time. I think it is a terrible idea to use her brother as an 'arbiter' in this matter. You dont need to try to convince him to be 'on your side'....It really doesnt matter which side he is on. If he DOES take your side, then she will just cut him out anyway. And the likelihood is he will say 'I agree with you Kwandoku, but shes my sister, so what can I do but support her?"
The content of that last line is fine. But man is it strange to be having that convo in front of someone else. Next time, I would recommend you honor your marriage but discussing those types of manners with just W first.
Originally Posted by Kwandoku
I'm hurting pretty bad about her not wearing her ring. She's at a new internship twice a week with 'like minded people' and I can't help but feel insecure right now.
I feel like Im being too blunt and not empathetic enough when I say that she views herself as a single woman right now. So I get that it hurts, but she is going to do what she wants to do right now. And how you feel or what you think matters ZERO percent to her. So instead, how can you focus on GAL? What plans do you have for this week and weekend? How can you take your focus off of her and what she may or my not be doing?
My BIL is a great, balanced guy and recommended he catch up with us separately so he can get both sides of the story openly and without prejudice.
Be careful about what you tell him, because everything you say WILL get back to her. You do not want to come off sounding desperate and needy. Just say things like "I'm as surprised about this as you are" and "I think we both need some time and space to think about this." Be very generic and non-committal. Do not agree to marriage counseling or anything of the sort because she will just go do it to say "see I told you so, I knew this wouldn't work." It sounds like he fancies himself a mediator, but believe me when I say he has no idea what he's dealing with. His sister is completely checked out and done and there is nothing he can do that won't just make things worse. Just tell him you would prefer he not intervene right now.
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I also notice she's not wearing her ring today.
Standard operating procedure for WAS's.
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During the conversation I stood my ground and said that I don't think I should be the one to move out if she needs space. I wouldn't stop her from finding space, but I think that I should stay, since she's the one wanting out.
She said that it was her parents living with us right now in our home, and that it would be awkward for just me to be there. I countered and said that I get along extremely well with her parents, and if anything they would give me less pressure than they would to their own daughter.
AHA! I think we know now why she moved her parents in there, it was part of her plan to force you out. If true, that's pretty sinister.
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Still unresolved at this point but I'm glad I at least expressed my view that it should be her to move out. We have another spare bedroom she could move into, but it's completely her choice if she decides move out.
Exactly. Stand your ground. Stay in the house. Stay in the MBR. It is up to HER if she wants to separate and move to another room or another place. That is her choice. You are not going to be inconvenienced by this anymore than you have to be.
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What rules should we agree to make it effective?
If she leaves the house then establish rules about her visiting. Since her parents are there I'm sure she'll want to see them, but make it clear there is no revolving door for her once she leaves. She can only visit after giving you X amount of notice, and she needs to knock on the door or ring, not let herself in, etc. I'm sure she would never expect you to just walk into her place, so she needs to have the same respect for you.
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She says she needs space to figure out what she wants in life, and whether or not she wants to work our M.
This is just "dangling the carrot"- giving you a little hope that she's still thinking about it. Rest assured, she is 100% DONE right now. She is NOT thinking about working on the M. She is only saying that to make you more compliant. IE- "well you need to move out of the house so I can have my space to decide whether to work on the M, in fact if you do move out I will probably want to work on it." It is absolute BS, don't believe it.
She may very well want to work on the M later, but not now. It's going to be many months or (more likely) a year or more before she gets to that point.
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If I'm trying to detach, is it bad for me to insist that we shouldn't be allowed to see other people during the separation?
As the others said you can't enforce that, and even if she promises not to she will anyway. Don't believe anything she says right now.
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I'm happy to give her space, in the hopes that it will help facilitate clearing her head, but I'm afraid if she has an A whilst we're apart I wouldn't be able to forgive her and ever reconcile the M.
It is very likely to happen sooner or later, and may already have happened. So decide if that really is a deal-killer for you. No one here will blame you either way, that's your choice to make.
Thanks for the responses. So helpful and 100% agree.
Whilst I don't believe she sinisterly planned to have her parents move in, as they had discussed it with us over a year ago, and the W has always been the one more uncomfortable with the idea - it certainly isn't helping the situation right now.
Today I messaged our MC to let her know we wouldn't be coming back in the near term. She was understanding as she had a pretty clear sense that the W was already leaning out of the marriage in our initial sessions.
I accept that the W is 100% done with the M right now, but what I keep flip flopping with is my feelings around detachment. I know it's the right thing to do, it just sees to counter intuitive.
Further observations/context -
She's not angry, nasty or resentful towards me, and was genuinely sad and torn up but when she dropped the bomb. She insists her lack of feelings stem from having a realisation that she and I two very different people and not due to any other factors in our R.
I know all too well that our R deteriorated to the point where she longer felt like she could love me, which I completely accept my responsibility in, and the "we're just too different" is her label on her feelings right now, but it's not something I/we can work on until she's ready.
Since dropping the bomb however, her personality has drastically changed and is acting out all the signs of an MLC. It seems like dropping the bomb was a huge weight off her shoulders and now she's acting like how she's wanted to for a long time.
My next challenge is standing my ground on the trial separation.
Should I have a preference on whether she moves into the spare bedroom or out of the house completely? I think to properly detach I should have none. In fact, it's probably better she moves out she can't use the "staying in the same house wasn't a real separation so I still don't know what I want" excuse down the line.
It's valentine's day today. First time in 14 years I haven't bought her a rose or made dinner plans.
Today I messaged our MC to let her know we wouldn't be coming back in the near term.
Good. MC is great if both spouses are just having some trouble and both want help, but when one goes WAS then it has no value at all. Your money would be better spent on a DB coach and IC.
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I accept that the W is 100% done with the M right now, but what I keep flip flopping with is my feelings around detachment. I know it's the right thing to do, it just sees to counter intuitive.
DB'ing is definitely counter-intuitive. Here's why. Every time you've had a fight or argument or disagreement you settled it by reaching out to your W, buying her flowers, taking her to dinner, apologizing, maybe negotiating. So now you are programmed to think that's what works to fix things. But dealing with a WAS is radically different than dealing with an unhappy wife. What worked before will NOT work now. The very things that worked before will just look to her like you are needy, desperate and pathetic because she is 100% checked out, no longer in love, convinced you are a boat anchor preventing her from sailing into a beautiful new life. You can't stop her from sailing away, all you can do is let her. She has to learn for herself that her problems are not you, that they are internal demons she needs to wrestle down. It takes a lot of time. So that's the one thing you can give her right now that works- time.
Now I am not saying be cold and indifferent and insensitive. No, that's not it at all. LOVINGLY detach. Read Sandi's rules every day and let them guide your behavior.
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Since dropping the bomb however, her personality has drastically changed and is acting out all the signs of an MLC. It seems like dropping the bomb was a huge weight off her shoulders and now she's acting like how she's wanted to for a long time.
Yes, that is not uncommon.
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Should I have a preference on whether she moves into the spare bedroom or out of the house completely? I think to properly detach I should have none.
You are correct. Many WAS's see their husbands as controlling and manipulative even when they weren't. So your goal is to let her make all her own decisions. I'm not saying to agree with her, it's more like: "W, I would rather you stay here and work on the M but if S is what you want I will support your decision." But it is HER decision to make. You open the cage door, she decides whether to step through the door or not.
Thanks AnotherStander, that makes a lot of sense - to tell her how I feel, but ultimately the decision is hers.
On whether or not she's having an A, emotional or otherwise, how or should I try to find out?
I've asked her a couple of times and she vehemently denies there's OM. She has mentioned potential greener pastures for both of us out there, so there's definitely at least an imaginary ideal partner that's "more like her" out there in her mind.
The reason I ask is because although I should be detaching, how hard I come down with tough love on a wayward wife as Sandi points out is different from a WAW without OM.
For instance we're still currently in the same bed, but if I knew for sure there's an A, then I would insist that she move out of the MBR.
How do I get to the bottom of this without snooping?
Going out drinking much more often with her younger single uni friends Putting a lot more effort into her looks when she goes out - but not for me Plastic surgery (something she told me she's always wanted, so I was supportive) Spending much more time on her phone/social media Hanging out with male colleagues/uni friends solo, which is something she never did in happier times She has verbalised that she feels like she has no identity and doesn't know her purpose in life Saying "grass is always greener" things and that there may be people better suited for us, and that we're just too different
K,
These are all signs she is having an affair with one of her co-workers. Is her phone pass protected? Doe she take it everywhere including the bathroom?
Just so you know I highly doubt she is going through a MLC at age 31.
Someone she goes to uni with. Someone more like her.
I feel like my heart has collapsed, and it's hard to swallow.
She was going to Singapore alone for a few days in April to find herself before heading to a yoga retreat. Turns out she had booked tickets for the both of them.
So sorry to hear this Kwandoku. I don't know what you should do exactly. Other people will be on here to give you some advice. My advice is to not do anything impulsively and to give yourself some time to think first. (((HUGS)))
Sorry to hear that but it is so predictable in these sitches. Before you do anything is an affair a deal breaker for you?
You can ask her to leave but you can’t force her to leave.
The first thing we suggest is to ask her to leave the marital bedroom or better yet move her stuff into the guest room. That is a sign of strength that you are not going to share the marital bed with a cheater.
Just know she is probably going to fight it. If she asks you why just say you know why.
Once we know more about you stance on an affair we can discuss confronting her.
Again, I’m really sorry you are going through this right now.
