Marriage and depression

[DaveK]

Ok, how would you not get at least half custody? Is this a New York thing?

The more times you get super upset, the more you will begin to realize that these emotions come and go. You feel bad, then it fades. Use that to your advantage.

You need to get your focus off of her. It's hard to do. You can't control anything she is doing, so please don't waste any more time or headspace on her. It's only hurting you. So your goal is to catch yourself thinking about her, and then take control of that by getting up and running, or going out to a coffee shop, or calling a friend, or going to gym, etc.

And please don't wait for her to return to reality. Go take action to make your life better and minimize your interactions with her so she can't hurt you as much.

I will have half custody....which doesn't do me any good when I have no clue where they went. I don't think my sons would put up with that, so why even worry about it now. None of this happened....something I have to keep telling me.

[DejaVu6]

(((Dave))) Hang in there. I promise... it DOES get easier. I was a basket case when all this started. It took me about two and a half months to even start to think straight. I have finally gotten to a place where I can be present with whatever I am doing and not consumed with thoughts of my marriage and my spouse. It is a slow process and I know there are still going to be sad days ahead but they have, at least, become bearable. Go easy on yourself. Don’t make any big decisions other than to do what you have to do to protect yourself financially. Use this board like your own personal journal. Read other people’s threads. You will see that you are not alone. Try to get some exercise and a decent amount of sleep. If you have to go on an antidepressant / anti anxiety medication for awhile, do it. I did and I think it has helped. Get out of your house. Spend some time in nature. Volunteer. Let your W walk her path. You just focus on healing yourself and becoming the best person you can be. Have faith that you will get through this. I know it is hard to believe that right now but you WILL. (((HUGS)))

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,

I haven’t read through much of your sitch yet, but I did just catch your last few posts about what you are being put through. It’s perfecrly normal to feel those things and to let it out. This is a very painful time in your life and you should react as such.

I caution you as well about making or saying anything out of emotion as it can make your hole that much deeper to dig out of. I am learning the hard way that emotionally charged words can cause undesirable consequences.

Try to take care of yourself the best you can. Vent here. Spew the bile you have held in you. Better to lay it here than out to your loved ones.

Limiting interactions with WW to a bare minimum helps. It is odd, but sometimes I think I got addicted to the pain. As if I want to feel the hurt....it is because I don't get to feel much else. I'm numb and feeling pain is better than feeling nothing.
Limiting interactions prevents saying anything bad.
I do notice that WW retreats far more now. And she started cooking all kinds of things.And she wants to join a junior manager program at a local hotel. This is absolutely stunning because she always outright refused to do anything that had to do with management....too peopely. I so wish she gets a job, not because of the money, but that will force her to shape up and take responsibility for something. Doing Facebook all day and getting hammered is not a fulfilling life, so matter how awesome the lover is.
Change is in the air at my work as well....might become team lead / QA manager and could end up with 9 direct reports. I have no idea how to be a manager, but I can do it. We have a great bunch at work, so it will be a good transition....if it happens.

I grew closer to a coworker, he recommended the therapist to me. And I tell my coworker a lot of things. Today he told me that he is impressed that I still stand tall in this crisis. I am not so sure about that, but it felt good to hear it.
My boss gave me advice and material about divorce. He got a divorce 3.5 years ago and got remarried. He moved on and is happy, he says his ex is miserable and full of regret.
But that's about it what I have as someone who could be counted as a friend. Well, I have you guys and the folks on the FB self-help group....and a teacher from Long Island who I talk to every day. She has a heart of gold, but she is not interested in me beyond friendship. I think it is that she does not want to get involved with someone. She has schizophrenia, drinks a lot, refuses treatment, and two weeks ago asked me about buying a gun. I kept talking to her on that Monday morning, contacted the suicide prevention hotline for advice, and eventually she wanted to go. I didn't care that I went to work two hours late and missed meetings. That was more important to me. She helped me through many hard hours and I am forever thankful for that.
I have no idea why I tell you this, but something tells me that I need to keep this written down here.

[Adam04]

Dave,

you clarified yourself quite a bit and thank you for that.

There is just so much of information and action needed right now. Plus a full time job and essentially running the household because WW doesn't do much. I go at a speed that is not sustainable for me, but I got a lot of the tasks done.

Take a breather. Go back to the posters who have questions for you. In answering them, you might gain insight. Also, you should not be doing your W share of the work around the house.

What kind of action do you think is needed? You have time. Pace yourself.

I will reread the posts. One issue is that I have a therapist, this forum, a self-help group, and the lawyer telling me stuff. Even within this thread I found some things confusing (such as no communication vs still talk to her when addressed to not come across as a jerk). Add to that the useless advice from clueless people to "kick her out" or stuff like that.

I can see where other sites or people may provide conflicting idea with whats here. You have to pick your poison and go with it. What resonates with you?

This is not all contradictory of each other: no initiating talks, especially Relationship talks VS talking to her when addressed, and not coming across as a jerk. What part of that are you having a problem with?

Don't pursue, don't try to talk to her first and don't pressure her. If she says something to you, respond and be nice. Don't use the conversation as a chance to see if you two will work it out, that's what it means. Some of this you will get over time the more you ask questions about the process. Feel free to get clarification on anything before trying to implement it.

Also, I wouldn't say kicking her out is useless info. Maybe its blunt and a softer approach can be found here.

She keeps sending me FB messages and I don't know if I should read them, but not respond. Read them with delay, or read and respond as in she is addressing me and ignoring her would be rude. I do not send her messages or texts or anything, not even start a conversation.

Why are you checking her FB? Stop all that social media with her.

Advice I've seen here is if you do not need to answer a question, then you don't need to respond. If its a question that isn't an emergency, then do so whenever you want, but don't appear like you're an eager puppy waiting for the next crumb she gives you. That make sense?

I really wouldn't put anything out on social media. When I get home, I throw my phone in the drawer and don't use any social media apps. in the daytime when I'm at work, I have hardly ever called W at work to chitchat unless we have an emergency about our kids. I can count the number of times that's happened. Maybe that's my fault as she appears to be more of this new aged woman needing likes, pokes, hahas on the text, but I am not. Call me old fashioned.

I cried in front of her when she told me the news and then a few times after. I haven't done this in months. This was not a recent event. I may not have made that clear.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying because after 7months I know the pain is still there. No one is saying not to cry, just not in front of her. You want to show emotional strength and not break down in front of her.

If anything I am deeply saddened that I lost her and hurt by the total rejection. So far nobody could give me practical advice on how to cope with this.

You will see people saying the only way is through it. that's the way you cope, you go through it. You don't try to dodge or go around it or fluff it with something else. You ignore it, it will be there waiting for you. You try to run from it, it will be right behind you. You just deal with it the best way you know how. Some people will be better than others at it. Others will need a lot more time to process. Sometimes its not all about thinking or feeling too much. Just be in the moment, knowing you will be okay. Did you read the sticky you will not die? When you believe you will be okay, slowly that burden lifts. life is somewhat a little more bearable. The pain doesn't ever go away I don't think. Many of us are trying to deal with the triggers. I think you may know the answer but you don't want to face it. You are looking for the magic bullet and there is not one. Sorry.

I really appreciate your advice, but you write "need to play smart" and then leave me hanging. What is in your opinion a smart move to protect me and my sons financially without upsetting WW even more? That is what I mean with practical advice..

Some of the advice is generally speaking. People can make suggestions but they cant tell you what to do. You have to decide, like you chose to go dark without fully understanding it. That was a choice. If you don't understand something and you have the option to find out more about, why didn't you do that first before acting?

Some advice is more direct when the scenario calls for it. Like when you said you were thinking about calling attorney to start the papers, we all knew that was a bad idea. We told you to stop and the reason why. Other times you have to do what's right for you. Even though we "told" you to stop(or advised you), it is ultimately your choice. The thing about multiple sources of info, pick something that resonates with you and go by that. Don't try to pick something you think will win your marriage back because that wont work.

My playing smart comment was more directed to a post of yours like this:

Going dark is so damn hard. Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt.

If you are concerned about her racking up CC debt, and this is right after you said you were cutting her off financially, then why cut her off financially? That was my whole point, but you clarified she still has access to the joint account where you have some money in it.

look, you cant 100% protect yourself if your W still has a CC. My lawyer told me that my W debt are my own debts too unless we file for D then they will halt any more of that behavior. This is relating to the reason why you changed your beneficiaries now, because later you cant make those changes. You're W wont be able to go out and spend like crazy. You may however be able to use what she purchases stuff on her CC like for BF overseas and then tell your lawyer you want W responsible for those expenditures that have nothing to do with the family. Thinking like that may be how you want to protect your family. Communicate that early with the lawyer to make sure all of it gets captured and documented during discovery. You most likely can email your lawyer if this is feasible to do so you can have some comfort and peace of mind.

Buzz words like "play smart", "EQ", "go dark", "self diag" have little meaning to someone who does not know what that is and how to apply it.

play smart was explained just now, hope you got it. EQ was part of the emotional intelligence discussion because your W mentioned the other guy had it. I was trying to open you up to that emotional side of it, but you admitted you have problems with this, understanding the emotional piece. I still think this is an area you can greatly improve in but you may need your counselor for that one. Maybe reading a book about it might help. I cant tell you what will fix you if that's what you need. You will need to make some effort to go out there and look for the answer too if it intrigues you enough. GO dark, now this one, you implemented before you fully understood? That's on you. Next time you are unsure of something, run it by here first(just like when you said you were wanting your lawyer to draw them papers up, phew) self diag, not sure about this one. When I made that comment I was saying we were still looking under the hood of the car running a diag(diagnostic to find out what the issues were) its not a buzzword here. Just a poorly used attempt at a metaphor causing confusion, sorry bout that.

Originally Posted by Adam04

I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.

What upsets me a bit is that several people tell me "you are doing it wrong", but fail to detail what the better plan of action is.

you've mentioned you can't connect with your wife emotionally. you've said you 've been shy and awkward and didn't think you would ever marry. this says something about how you see you self worth. You've allowed W to disrespect you. I don't know if you purposely don't answer other peoples questions or address some of your root causes for issues. I think one of them is your self esteem. I think because you may have low self esteem you are allowing WW to get her way and many things is an attack on you. someone is being too mean to you, your wife has no EQ and is mean to you, you make excuses for some of the other stuff like the BF on Fb and your son getting angry at you for buying spam at the wrong store? what the hell....

I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope you aren't victimizing yourself. We're saying to you to slow down and don't let your emotions control or guide your actions and you interpret that as we are saying you are doing it wrong. If using your emotions is wrong, what is the right way then? Some of that responsibility lies on your shoulders. You've said " guess you cant wait around for someone to come and fix this." that responsibility isnt for someone else, its for you and you're looking for a white knight. People here can give you advice and guidance but its up to you. Choices are hard. This is hard for many of us here.

[DaveK]

(((Dave))) Hang in there. I promise... it DOES get easier. I was a basket case when all this started. It took me about two and a half months to even start to think straight. I have finally gotten to a place where I can be present with whatever I am doing and not consumed with thoughts of my marriage and my spouse. It is a slow process and I know there are still going to be sad days ahead but they have, at least, become bearable. Go easy on yourself. Don’t make any big decisions other than to do what you have to do to protect yourself financially. Use this board like your own personal journal. Read other people’s threads. You will see that you are not alone. Try to get some exercise and a decent amount of sleep. If you have to go on an antidepressant / anti anxiety medication for awhile, do it. I did and I think it has helped. Get out of your house. Spend some time in nature. Volunteer. Let your W walk her path. You just focus on healing yourself and becoming the best person you can be. Have faith that you will get through this. I know it is hard to believe that right now but you WILL. (((HUGS)))

I will read your post many more times. This is one of the nicest things someone wrote to me in a long time. And thanks for the hugs, I really need it right now.
I did as much as I can to secure my assets. The only sure way to be shielded entirely is to file for divorce....and I won't do this now.

[ovrrnbw]

Read up on "Affair Down".

Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.

Yes, cruel...at least what I read so far. Puts things into perspective, but makes me feel even more miserable and helpless....as if I have no chance..... ever. And it kinda makes me feel as if all is my fault, although nothing that I read so far states that.

This line of thinking has to stop. Up in New York it's all feminism and equality and show your emotions and I think this has rubbed off on you. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being yourself but I think outside influences play a role on us all. Did you know that feminists are more attracted to sexist men, statistically? All this crying and worrying about her reaction has go to stop. Stomp it out.

Let go of the stuff you can't control.

Focus that energy on what you can control.

You have freedom now. Go to the bar. Go play golf. Hang out with friends. Talk trash to your buddies. Don't you remember being single and doing whatever you wanted? I had a blast. I have so many stories to tell people. Go do that again! Your kids are old enough that you don't need to be around them constantly.

In regards to the equality statement I want to say that I believe in equal rights under the law, but I don't believe that all people are equal because all people are different, make different choices, and experience different consequences based on those choices.

There's not much action needed or understand needed right now. I'd focus on the first two LRT rules for now:

1. Stop pursuing.
2. Get a Life.

[DaveK]

Dave,

There is just so much of information and action needed right now. Plus a full time job and essentially running the household because WW doesn't do much. I go at a speed that is not sustainable for me, but I got a lot of the tasks done.

Take a breather. Go back to the posters who have questions for you. In answering them, you might gain insight. Also, you should not be doing your W share of the work around the house.

What kind of action do you think is needed? You have time. Pace yourself.

I've come to the same conclusion. Financial stuff is all set for now, I will keep a good chunk of money in the shared account, and I will set things up so that I can deposit money into my sons' accounts (they have their own accounts now). That is not the purpose of dowsing them with money to bring them on my side, but purely as safeguard for the time I am away in April. Esp S17 has shown that he is very capable to run the show here, he did that for a good part when WW was in India and I was a mental train wreck.I regret that now, because I asked too much of my kids at that time.

I can see where other sites or people may provide conflicting idea with whats here. You have to pick your poison and go with it. What resonates with you?

Advice and suggestions that do not generate guilt. I know that it is hard to judge for others what makes me feel guilty. I am quick to blame myself for everything.....hmmm, yea, that is the lack of self esteem again. Clearly an area where I have a lot of work to do.

This is not all contradictory of each other: no initiating talks, especially Relationship talks VS talking to her when addressed, and not coming across as a jerk. What part of that are you having a problem with?

I have/had a problem with the type and level of interactions. This morning I got a text message to our home phone (Google Voice) reminding WW of her therapy appt. I passed that on to her without further comment. I don't know if this is the same as initiating or if that falls under not being a jerk. Now that I wrote this and after getting a cup of coffee....WW has the access info to Google Voice and she should be quite capable to keep track of the one appointment she has. While passing it on was nice I think, it was not necessary. Going forward I won't pass it on.
Making coffee in the morning...I make enough for both of us, but that's it. I no longer get a cup for her and put the creamer in. She thanks me for making coffee and I respond with you're welcome of the like and that's it.
S13's progress in math. He uses an online course and I get progress reports every other week. I forwarded the first one to WW without further comment. She still admins the home schooling and writes the quarterly reports. Then again....I sent her the login info to the parent portal weeks ago when I signed up for the course. If she really needs that info she can get it herself. I guess I answered that question...no need to pass it on.

Don't pursue, don't try to talk to her first and don't pressure her. If she says something to you, respond and be nice. Don't use the conversation as a chance to see if you two will work it out, that's what it means. Some of this you will get over time the more you ask questions about the process. Feel free to get clarification on anything before trying to implement it.

I will heed that advice. When I wrote the first post it immediately received half a dozen responses with a ton of links to other threads. That suggested to me a need of urgency....but that may just have been purely in my mind. The unexpected amount of responses is also why I didn't (yet) responded to all of them...plus lack of time and the rather clunky way of responding to sections in posts.
I no longer pursue as in doing nice things for her, commenting on her looks, going overboard over how good her food is (more by accident I quoted my late uncle last time saying that best about dinner is getting seconds). But I wonder if I should eat the food she cooks? Until I am clear on how to respond to that I will go eat it, would be rude and wasteful to ignore it and eat a sandwich instead. What helps a lot is that S17 preps his own meals since he does not like anything that we make. S13 eats anything and has low standards as far as food, means he is perfectly fine with a can of cold pasta (yuck!) or a bowl of canned soup. I will spend mental time on this issue later. At some point I have to figure out how to put dinner on the table while working full time and it not being just frozen junk.

Also, I wouldn't say kicking her out is useless info. Maybe its blunt and a softer approach can be found here.

It is useless because it ignores the fact that WW owns half the house. I legally cannot kick her out. Aside from that, it would be morally wrong because she has no income and no place to go. Kicking her out also does not solve any of the issues.

She keeps sending me FB messages and I don't know if I should read them, but not respond. Read them with delay, or read and respond as in she is addressing me and ignoring her would be rude. I do not send her messages or texts or anything, not even start a conversation.

Why are you checking her FB? Stop all that social media with her.

I essentially did this since last Wednesday. Before then we would spend significant amount of time sending each other memes and jokes and talk about stuff that had nothing to do with our marriage/issues. I liked it a lot because it was like talking to a good friend. After I stopped responding she kept sending funny cat pics (a test balloon), but I did not respond to that.
At times I am tempted to look at her FB profile, but there is no rational reason for that. This urge is something I need to discuss with the therapist because I need help to end this addiction to pain. I feel numb otherwise and pain is at least one feeling. My emotional needs are entirely unmet for a long time and I don't know how to satisfy them.

Advice I've seen here is if you do not need to answer a question, then you don't need to respond. If its a question that isn't an emergency, then do so whenever you want, but don't appear like you're an eager puppy waiting for the next crumb she gives you. That make sense?

Yes...and as mentioned before, I no longer do that.

I really wouldn't put anything out on social media. When I get home, I throw my phone in the drawer and don't use any social media apps. in the daytime when I'm at work, I have hardly ever called W at work to chitchat unless we have an emergency about our kids. I can count the number of times that's happened. Maybe that's my fault as she appears to be more of this new aged woman needing likes, pokes, hahas on the text, but I am not. Call me old fashioned.

I rarely post anything public and I have to rethink what I post privately as well. I have no idea which channels the posts take.It comes from the urge to just have to tell someone and without someone at home it goes to random strangers on the Internet. I have to train myself to seek other avenues. I may get the same need met by writing myself and email and throwing it away before sending it. This will be an area I will struggle with a lot. I do not have anyone that I can talk to 1:1 in person in a personal and relaxed setting. I talk a lot to a coworker, but there are limits at work.

If anything I am deeply saddened that I lost her and hurt by the total rejection. So far nobody could give me practical advice on how to cope with this.

You will see people saying the only way is through it. that's the way you cope, you go through it. You don't try to dodge or go around it or fluff it with something else. You ignore it, it will be there waiting for you. You try to run from it, it will be right behind you. You just deal with it the best way you know how. Some people will be better than others at it. Others will need a lot more time to process. Sometimes its not all about thinking or feeling too much. Just be in the moment, knowing you will be okay. Did you read the sticky you will not die? When you believe you will be okay, slowly that burden lifts. life is somewhat a little more bearable. The pain doesn't ever go away I don't think. Many of us are trying to deal with the triggers. I think you may know the answer but you don't want to face it. You are looking for the magic bullet and there is not one. Sorry.

I will try. I do not know what the answer is. I do not know where this all ends up. I know what I want it to end like, but I don't think there is any way I can nudge the ship in that direction. It is really discouraging to be so powerless.
I won't die and with the opportunities I may get at work I have something to focus on instead.

Some of the advice is generally speaking. People can make suggestions but they cant tell you what to do. You have to decide, like you chose to go dark without fully understanding it. That was a choice. If you don't understand something and you have the option to find out more about, why didn't you do that first before acting?

As mentioned above, the many posts triggered a sense of urgency. I read the thread about going dark and what stuck in my mind most was to end interaction and conversation. I overdid this the first two days by ignoring WW even when she addressed me. There was one night where S13 and WW were talking and S13 asked me why I don't want to talk to them. I didn't respond to that because it isn't that I don't want to talk to him, but to her. Any advice on how to handle such a situation better? I feel bad that I blew off S13 although he was not the target of this action.

Some advice is more direct when the scenario calls for it. Like when you said you were thinking about calling attorney to start the papers, we all knew that was a bad idea. We told you to stop and the reason why. Other times you have to do what's right for you. Even though we "told" you to stop(or advised you), it is ultimately your choice. The thing about multiple sources of info, pick something that resonates with you and go by that. Don't try to pick something you think will win your marriage back because that wont work.

I had a bunch of folks at different places tell me take care of finances, protect your assets, shield yourself from her spending money, and so forth. I think I am at a point now where I have much bigger control over finances.
My appointment with the lawyer was for information only. I wanted to know what I need to do, how a divorce process works, if a settlement agreement with WW waving spousal support will hold up in court, and a ton of other questions. Even as far back as when I got the first therapy sessions back in early August I was advised to take control over all finances. Since then it was always the first piece of advice even when I just needed a hug and someone to tell me that the world isn't ending.
Full legal and financial separation is only possible with filing divorce papers. NY does not have anything else based on what the lawyer told me. I think much differently about it today than on Monday. The lawyer's interests may also not have been entirely my interests. He only stands to make money when there is a divorce. That said, I have now a much better understanding, I have a legal contact established, but I will NOT file papers.
I stated it early on, I want to save my marriage, I do not want a divorce. I understand that I have no control over what WW does, but a lot of control over what I do if I make rational decisions.

My playing smart comment was more directed to a post of yours like this:

Going dark is so damn hard. Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt.

If you are concerned about her racking up CC debt, and this is right after you said you were cutting her off financially, then why cut her off financially? That was my whole point, but you clarified she still has access to the joint account where you have some money in it.

Yes, was a poor choice of words on my end. I still want and will have her access to money, but not all of it.

look, you cant 100% protect yourself if your W still has a CC. My lawyer told me that my W debt are my own debts too unless we file for D then they will halt any more of that behavior. This is relating to the reason why you changed your beneficiaries now, because later you cant make those changes. You're W wont be able to go out and spend like crazy. You may however be able to use what she purchases stuff on her CC like for BF overseas and then tell your lawyer you want W responsible for those expenditures that have nothing to do with the family. Thinking like that may be how you want to protect your family. Communicate that early with the lawyer to make sure all of it gets captured and documented during discovery. You most likely can email your lawyer if this is feasible to do so you can have some comfort and peace of mind.

That is a position I am now in. WW is disturbed by me essentially cancelling the shared CC. She used it also to pay for her therapy session copay and she asked me about that today. I told her to use the debit card or the flexibly spending account (FSA) card. She said she cannot find the FSA card, I immediately ordered a replacement for her that will come in a week from now.

Buzz words like "play smart", "EQ", "go dark", "self diag" have little meaning to someone who does not know what that is and how to apply it.

play smart was explained just now, hope you got it. EQ was part of the emotional intelligence discussion because your W mentioned the other guy had it. I was trying to open you up to that emotional side of it, but you admitted you have problems with this, understanding the emotional piece. I still think this is an area you can greatly improve in but you may need your counselor for that one. Maybe reading a book about it might help. I cant tell you what will fix you if that's what you need. You will need to make some effort to go out there and look for the answer too if it intrigues you enough. GO dark, now this one, you implemented before you fully understood? That's on you. Next time you are unsure of something, run it by here first(just like when you said you were wanting your lawyer to draw them papers up, phew) self diag, not sure about this one. When I made that comment I was saying we were still looking under the hood of the car running a diag(diagnostic to find out what the issues were) its not a buzzword here. Just a poorly used attempt at a metaphor causing confusion, sorry bout that.

What this exchange highlights is that I am still rather on edge and stressed out. Picking arguments with folks who want to help me is rather stupid. I have one thing I am unsure about, but I post that separately.

Originally Posted by Adam04

I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.

What upsets me a bit is that several people tell me "you are doing it wrong", but fail to detail what the better plan of action is.

you've mentioned you can't connect with your wife emotionally. you've said you 've been shy and awkward and didn't think you would ever marry. this says something about how you see you self worth. You've allowed W to disrespect you. I don't know if you purposely don't answer other peoples questions or address some of your root causes for issues. I think one of them is your self esteem. I think because you may have low self esteem you are allowing WW to get her way and many things is an attack on you. someone is being too mean to you, your wife has no EQ and is mean to you, you make excuses for some of the other stuff like the BF on Fb and your son getting angry at you for buying spam at the wrong store? what the hell....

I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope you aren't victimizing yourself. We're saying to you to slow down and don't let your emotions control or guide your actions and you interpret that as we are saying you are doing it wrong. If using your emotions is wrong, what is the right way then? Some of that responsibility lies on your shoulders. You've said " guess you cant wait around for someone to come and fix this." that responsibility isnt for someone else, its for you and you're looking for a white knight. People here can give you advice and guidance but its up to you. Choices are hard. This is hard for many of us here.

It sure is damn hard. All of this is new to me and what is new is scary. A lot of my validation came at home. W happy, kids happy meant me happy.WW blamed a lot of things on me, basically telling me that it is all my fault that she has an affair, that I am the sole reason why, that I drove her into the arms of someone else. She even told me that she could only stand being with me all these years because she was drunk. How the heck can anyone hear that from the person closest and have a high self esteem? Not that it was high before that.
Not answering questions is not intentional. There is just so much here piling in on me that I am getting overwhelmed. Dealing with this and myself is consuming all of me, yet there is normal life going on. Plus annoyances to get the psychiatrist's office to call back. It is very difficult to get mental health care.
Things will continue to be difficult as long as my mind clings to the dream of being back together with my wife. It [censored], she was my support system and now that is gone I start whining....so I stop here.

[DaveK]

Read up on "Affair Down".

Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.

Yes, cruel...at least what I read so far. Puts things into perspective, but makes me feel even more miserable and helpless....as if I have no chance..... ever. And it kinda makes me feel as if all is my fault, although nothing that I read so far states that.

This line of thinking has to stop. Up in New York it's all feminism and equality and show your emotions and I think this has rubbed off on you. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being yourself but I think outside influences play a role on us all. Did you know that feminists are more attracted to sexist men, statistically? All this crying and worrying about her reaction has go to stop. Stomp it out.

Let go of the stuff you can't control.

Focus that energy on what you can control.

You have freedom now. Go to the bar. Go play golf. Hang out with friends. Talk trash to your buddies. Don't you remember being single and doing whatever you wanted? I had a blast. I have so many stories to tell people. Go do that again! Your kids are old enough that you don't need to be around them constantly.

In regards to the equality statement I want to say that I believe in equal rights under the law, but I don't believe that all people are equal because all people are different, make different choices, and experience different consequences based on those choices.

There's not much action needed or understand needed right now. I'd focus on the first two LRT rules for now:

1. Stop pursuing.
2. Get a Life.

Before I got married I lived at home with my parents and brother. I finished up college and worked after that for half a year to earn money to move to the US. I never had that single life.
Can I do whatever I want with responsibilities towards my kids? I don't think you suggest being irresponsible, but I have to take care of them and that to me means being at home at least some time.
Go to a bar? I thought about it, but one of the Sandi rules is to stay away from bars. I opt for going to the gym and lately I am dying to get a big fat pretzel at the mall. So I will do that on Friday night.
I stopped pursuing. The biggest part of pursuit was chatting with WW via FB messenger. I cut that down to total bare minimum and on some days there is no communication via that channel.
Hanging out with friends.....all my life I was very shy. I do not have friends in a sense as that I can call someone up to ask if they want to come over for a movie or go somewhere. That is a big issue all along. After we moved from CT where WW's family is from we had nobody here to drop the kids off and go have fun.
Might be a good opportunity to dig out my base guitar and start playing again. Haven't done this in over a decade.
A lot of my interests result into solitary activities. Not surprisingly, because I am agonized by the thought of directly interacting with people I do not know.
I look through the meetup groups in the area and pick something. When spring comes it will be easier, more options. Tonight I go to a board game meetup that is fun aside from the mental stress of learning all the rules for games I don't know.

[DaveK]

Communicating and doing fun stuff with S13 is easy. He likes going places and watching goofy TV shows. S17 is a totally different story. He spends almost all his time in his room. There are days I don't see him at all. When I knock at his door he does not respond. My attempts to talk to him about his gender identity issues were rejected, no matter which avenue I tried.Talking to him about our marriage issues met the same fate, him claiming that it is not his problem and that he does not want to give an opinion.
He wrote a resume and submitted it, then sent it to me. It is one of the worst resumes I have ever seen and I am involved in hiring for the past two years. He did not sell himself well (he used terms like "casual experience" for things he knows a lot about) and the structure of the resume is bad. Contact info is squished into the last line, skills and experience are disjointed, nothing has a dates attached to it. He has a lot to list as a 17 year old, so the content is awesome. He outright refused to even hear my advice. That resume gets tossed in round 1.
Both sons have a bank account and I have the info for S13, but not for S17. So I asked S17 to give me his account number. I told him that if I ever want to give him money it is the easiest way to do an electronic transfer. There is no immediate need for this. He refused claiming that he wants to keep if clandestine and that he does not hand out personal information. I told him that I am sad that he does not trust me with this and he then said that I am now guilting him into doing something. While telling WW on which card to use to pay for her therapy session this was brought up by her, she told me not to take this personally. I eventually stopped engaging in this discussion with either of them.
He is very close to WW and it seems as if he takes her side in all of this. It bothers me as I am sure that the version he was told is not entirely accurate.
On a positive note, S17 often tells me about his programming projects and we watch tech related YouTube videos. He is happy that I get him cheap frozen pizzas and canned octopus and one in w while a bag of beef jerkey.

Anyone have advice on how to better communicate with S17?
How do I talk to S17 without having it be verbatim reported back to WW immediately?
How can I help him with his personal issues when he stonewalls like that?
Should I fix the resume for him and send it to him?
Any advice on how to engage him into a conversation about what is going on in the family?

Sorry, goes a bit outside of divorce busting, but it is an important issue for me.

[SoTorn]

Your marriage issues are not for discussion with your kids. They are not your kids problem to resolve. Yes you can update them on any logistical changes and explain your behavior, but beyond that dont discuss your M or WW with them.

Just do your best to be a good listening ear to your kids and make sure that you are readily available to them and taking care of any needs they have.

My D16 is either in her room or gone with friends. But I still plan a couple of days a week to either take the kids to fo something fun or to dinner.

Just make sure the kids know that you both love them and will both be there for them no matter what.