LBS dealing with WW (part 6)

[Joe2017]

Journaling:
Well I did a little backsliding today. I've been doing so much research on whether or not cheaters will cheat again, and the overwhelming evidence is that they will continue to cheat as long as they can get away with it. They can also become serial cheaters, and cheat again and again because of how they can become addicted to the thrill of the game.
Well, sht. That crap got inside my head all day long.

But it got me thinking, and I made XW tell me about any interactions she's had with OM.

So, I found out that OM has asked to use her as a personal reference for a rental application for a house. She told him that she gave him a good reference. She was friendly, but not wordy. I told her that I did not like how friendly she was. She said she is trying to keep the peace and still wants his kid to have a place to live. I told her I understand that, but restated that I do not like how friendly she was to him. He also temp checked her, and she ignored those messages. So that's good, I guess.

Now, I know that the interaction was not gushy and over the top but I still don't like it at all. This might be a deal breaker for me. I'm seriously thinking about breaking this off.

She has not stopped giving me everything I ask for, but I can tell she is getting tired of all of my demands. To be fair, it has been pretty harsh for her over the past couple weeks because I have been making her painfully aware of the reality of what her actions caused during her A.

I need to take a step back and re-evaluate what I am doing and why I am doing it. Recon might be the wrong thing to do. I am alright with ending this if it is the best course of action.

OK, going to bed now. What a weird few weeks. Lol.

[Joe2017]

Oh yeah, we are going to a counselor as soon as we select one, and make all of the scheduling work.

[DejaVu6]

Lots of things to think about Joe. Is this your XW’s only affair or have there been others? I have to admit, when I read your post, my first thought was that your fears and insecurities are more about you than they are about her. What is it they say about trust? You can lose it in an instant but it can take a lifetime to earn it back?

I think I wrote about it before on my thread but my first H had an affair with a mutual friend. I don’t think it had gotten to be physical but if it didn’t, it was close. I discovered it by accident because I called my answering machine when I was away for a weekend and played back the messages and she had left a message for him that was way too friendly. Now my sitch was different because the A ended the day I found out about it but I remember clearly thinking at the time that I had a choice to make. I would either have to end my marriage or stay with my H, figure out what needed to be fixed in our MR and find a way to trust him again. I ended up choosing the latter and I remember having to consciously choose every day to trust him because I knew that neither of us would thrive in a marriage where he was constantly having to answer questions about his whereabouts and I was constantly wondering what he was up to. It was difficult at first but it got a lot easier as time went on and I made him promise me that if he ever felt the need to stray again, he would respect me enough to end our marriage first because that is essentially what would happen anyway. I remember actually being grateful for his A because it brought us closer together and I am confident he never cheated on me again. Our marriage ended two years later but it was the mutual decision of two people who were going different directions. I am proud to say we are still good friends today...19 years later. He recently apologized to me - not for the A because that is water under the bridge - but because he said I was not married to the best version of him and he was very “ego-driven” back then - looking for validation from people and things outside of himself and outside of our marriage. I think my current H is similar in that regard. Maybe I have a “type”...lol.

Anyway...my point, and I do have one, is that I think you have a similar decision to make. My H had contact with our “friend” often because she was the GF of one of his best friends so I couldn’t tell him never to have any contact with her again. I had to trust that any contact he did have with her would be completely appropriate and in the context of his friendship with her BF. If I didn’t trust that, then I didn’t trust him and our marriage would have had no chance. It would also have gone against my decision to trust him.

You asked your XW about her interactions with the OM and she told you what they were. She could have told you she’s had no interactions but she didn’t. I get why she would give him a reference for a rental application and I think her reasons are likely genuine - especially because she ignored the temp check texts. I also get why you wouldn’t like it. Not liking it and not trusting her are two different things. I didn’t like that my H would still be having contact with the AP but it didn’t affect my choice to trust him. You also wrote that you’ve been making a lot of demands on your XW? The way you worded it makes it sound like you are punishing her or trying to make her feel more guilt because you don’t think she is remorseful enough? Is there anything that she can say or do to show you that she is? That is actually a question that I think you need to ask yourself. If the answer is “no” and you can’t make the choice to trust her than maybe recon isn’t a good idea.

I think examining your reasons for recon is important. I think you need to really understand what they are in order to make a clear decision. Maybe you are putting too much pressure on yourself and on her? Maybe you do need to take a step back and think or just go out with her as friends and not worry about what it means or where it is headed. Maybe you just work at being friends first. I don’t know... I’m probably rambling now. I’m a romantic at heart so I like to think that all recons can work out but that’s probably pretty unrealistic. Anyway... I hope you had a good sleep. (((HUGS)))

[ballast]

Joe...so like Deja in my first marriage, my W had an affair which brought about our divorce. At that time for me, I was of the mindset once someone cheats, that marriage is done, divorce and find someone else. It was black and white, the thought of recon was never a thought for me. Well now in my current sitch i haven't the foggiest clue what my WW is up to. She may or may not have an OM. Thing is when she left I was way more interested in R'ing with her...again likely because i have no evidence of an affair/OM. As time has gone on, i've spent a good bit of time asking myself "if W did have an OM and someday wanted to come back, what would i do?" Along those lines i've spent a great deal of time reading up on how incredibly hard R'ing from infidelity can be and at least right now...I'm thankful I do not have to make that decision. I still believe for me it would be a yes/no moral question. Did she cheat with OM? if so, then I can't R with her. Thing is I KNOW I would be an agonized, completely angry hot mess as I would know that i loved her, never wanted us to be in this position and would be raging against having to make such a painful decision especially as if I had said yes, then my D might have her family back together again. It is true to me that the R we all desire is infinitely harder to deal with if/when the chance of it comes around.

What I want to share with you from what reading i've done on the topic is that the concensus seems to be that it takes the betrayed spouse between 2-5 years to "recover" from the betrayal. If you look at what Sandi says about WWs and how long they need to process through whatever they are going to, that timeline is similiar. I think what I would say to you is that you are WAY early days both in any kind of R AND in your recovery process. I think you need to do your best to let this unfold naturally and not make rash decisions. Perhaps set yourself a marker of say "i'll give it 6 months" or something like that. For me given what I know of your sitch, I'd be a flat no even though as I say I would HATE it.

As for the OM, she needs to fully terminate contact with him. It is noble of her to be worried for his child, but that is a leverage point for him in her life and it must be ended. Definitely something that could be spoken about in MC. She needs to focus solely on the family she betrayed and not any other. Just my two cents.

praying for you buddy...give yourself the grace of some time to see where this goes before making final decisions.

-b

[neffer]

You need to be patient Joe. Piecing takes time and commitment. I´m three years into it. And I´m still longing for OW in my fantasy world sometimes...not the real world. I know that. I´m working into it. So I treat myself as an addict, and go step after step.

Time and patience. You have the freedom of choice there. Account that.

[Yail]

I've been doing so much research on whether or not cheaters will cheat again, and the overwhelming evidence is that they will continue to cheat as long as they can get away with it.

My thoughts on this is that it is likely similar to the "research" all us LBS/MFSs do on whether or not our spouses will return. We look for ourselves in statistics, stories and even worse...clickbait on the internet.

Only you will know if you feel she will or won't repeat past behavior. Trust yourself, since right now you can't yet fully trust her. Your own gut and experiences will guide you.

[AnotherStander]

She has not stopped giving me everything I ask for, but I can tell she is getting tired of all of my demands. To be fair, it has been pretty harsh for her over the past couple weeks because I have been making her painfully aware of the reality of what her actions caused during her A.

I was reading your response in another thread where you were talking about how she has forgotten so much of what she said and did. The reality is probably that she caused much more harm than she remembers (or wants to remember). Separation and divorce was on her timeline, but recon is on YOUR timeline. If recon is that important to her then she will give you the time to work through these things. If she's impatient about it well that is not a good sign because it's that same old "give me what I want and give it to me now" WAS mindset at work. Take your time to process this stuff, there's no rush.

I need to take a step back and re-evaluate what I am doing and why I am doing it. Recon might be the wrong thing to do. I am alright with ending this if it is the best course of action.

Good, that is a great mindset to have in this. You have options, you are in the driver's seat. Let her sweat it out a bit, there is no reason to rush back into anything.

[Joe2017]

Nah I'm not punishing her. I just have rules she has to follow due to trust issues. But every time I talk about what I need for building trust it makes her feel guilty and she gets upset because she said she feels guilty every day already, and this has been going on for weeks.

She says she never wants to hurt me again. But I have heard that before...
She says she loves me and she's in love with me. But I have heard that before...
She said there's nothing more important to her than me. But I have heard that before...
She said she will never cheat on me (again). But I have heard that before...

I'd hate to traumatize my kid again by involving her in our lives and having our trust violated a second time.

This is probably going to hurt. Lol.

Edits:
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input and opinions. You've all given me a lot of great insights.

[neffer]

Is she into IC? She should be...

[joejoe1]

Joe,



I did alot of research on will a person that has committed affair do it again, watched a lot of videos also. I researched for months. After countless hours spent on trying to get that question answered, I realized the truth is nobody has an answer. Human beings are just to unpredictable. There are alot of studies trying to predict peoples actions by using their prior actions. There are many articles showing cheaters will always be cheaters there all also many articles showing how affairs strengthen marriages , especially if both individuals are willing to put in the hardwork to create the proper boundaries and respect each other.

You are going to have to be patient. It took me almost a year to stop asking questions and questioning my wife about her actions during the A. We starting piecing at the end of OCT, I think one of my last questioning sessions came in June of the next year. I got the same answers from my wife every session and I never felt any better after those sessions and always left those sessions trying to think of more questions to ask. Those sessions never helped after the first few questioning session, they just ruined the mood and left darkest filled days.

As I read your post, I realize you are trying to make it your job to teach your XW a lesson on what her actions has caused. It's not your job to teach your wife a lesson. You probably feel like your W hasn't learned her lesson and she needs to feel what it feels like to hurt a person, the way she hurt you. She just don't get what you are going thru. Seems to me she understand the damage she has caused. She will never feel the pain you felt the way you felt it because she is not you. She is dealing with her own pain and she has to do her own healing to do. You have to let the healing and time do it's work. You like me are so worried about her hurting you again, that you are trying to get to a 100% answer letting you know it will never happen again, there's no answer for us in that regards my friend.

We don't know the future, the only thing we can do is work on ourselves and set no expectations of what a M should look like. Marriages are ever evolving. Stop trying to teach your W. Stop trying to control your W. Stop trying to get her to give you an answer she will never be able to give. The only thing you can go off is her actions. If her actions are showing you that she is in it to work on the M, give her space to do so. A person can only be guilted for so long. You are less than a month it and you are looking for some sort of perfection. There is no perfection. My W and I had a fight two nights ago about disciplining our boys, she was right and I was wrong, before the A, I would yell, scream, storm off, not listen, tell her she was wrong, but the difference now, is my W is patient a we are both aware of our communication problems. I mentioned that because, we still run into issues, I still get angry on days, or feel down. Some days I still think to myself, WTF.

I have also found myself thinking about what if I had an A, would my W stay with me. She has told me she would, but who knows. I have found myself also having intimate conversations with women I work with, and I have to pull back. I'm telling you this, just to let you know, that we will continue to deal with some of the same problems, now we are just more aware.

Something your W shouldn't be doing is having any contact for any reason with the OM. She has no reason to be helping him out, there's other people that can help him out. I had my W send a no contact/last contact/have a happy life letter to the OM. She wrote it, I proofread it, change some words around and watched as she pressed send.

I would also found a counselor, and counselor that deals with A ASAP to help you all work thru the problems are building a new and solid foundation.

Onward and Forward