I've thought about a response similar to what you mentioned. For me, the strong eye contact will have to become an area of focus.
Like I said, she wants S / D, I will give her what she wants--the boot from MBR ("okay since you're serious...")
I didn't shoot her down about having R talk--she asked me WHEN I would like to have it. So ball is in my court--haven't chosen a date yet
I will do my best not to reason or turn into a blubbering mess. Done begging and pleading.
TF, you're right about the late night convos. I've NEVER liked that when W does--some time ago I told her I don't like it because, in so many words, I feel manipulated or taken advantage of to agree with her or just get so worn down.
Worst case is just that--worst case, and rather unlikely.
This week W will take OS to dentist in Santa Monica. She may leave YS with me while she overnights with OS at MIL.
She talked about how it's better that her first night away from him would be when he is with me for one night and it's local instead of her being gone across country this fall for 3 months (and I'll have both boys).
She will be gone for 3 months this fall for a training. Also, with govt shutdown continuing, guess who is the only one drawing a paycheck right now? THIS GUY
May be why she was so nice to me yesterday? She noticed something, or trying to butter me up?
I didn't shoot her down about having R talk--she asked me WHEN I would like to have it. So ball is in my court--haven't chosen a date yet
I will do my best not to reason or turn into a blubbering mess. Done begging and pleading.
I think that mostly (from the little I have read, so please forgive me if I am way off here), She might be feeling a little differently than she was just a few months ago.
Even though she hates it, you are validating her now, and maybe she feels "heard" a bit more..
Most of that is because you are different on most accounts, or at least showing signs of being different.
I think a lot of WAS gain energy from being angry, and that mostly comes from the LBS not being who they need them to be , or at least made them out to be.
I often liken it to the space shuttle theory. Pulling away from the LBS is hard for them as well (even if they don't show that to you), and what fuels their journey, is their anger. The harder they pull, the more fuel that they need, kinda like the shuttles used the bigger tanks that broke away once they reach their cruising speed.
As far as the R talk, please don't expect things to be one way or another. Expectations are killer through your stand for your marriage. Positive ones, yet especially the negative ones. Be prepared for things to go either way during those talks, but don't have pre-determined thoughts about which way it will go.
Don't forget, mostly, she will need for you to become the person that she wants you to be( or better yet, the guy she told her friends that you are), in order to justify her actions and decisions.
And when you aren't that guy, she will probably try and make you into that guy by any means possible. watch for the switch during your talk, and IF you aren't giving her what she wants to hear, you will see it. Might not happen, yet be prepared for it.
Prepare yourself for every scenario, yet don't fuel the conversation. Listen, validate, and I like what R2C said above.
Your sitch will change when you start acting, rather than RE-acting....
Hi Bo, I remember reading your first thread and though I would hold back saying anything. But now, it's getting more difficult to not make a few statements, b/c your W reminds me of my experience after my first baby was born. I won't tell the long story, but I was very young when I married, and I got pregnant the first month of marriage.
Back then it was called "Baby Blues", which almost sounds sweet when compared to the actual months and sometimes years a woman can have PPD. Nobody told me to see a doctor or a therapist. I didn't know there was something wrong with me......I thought something was wrong with my H and our MR. The child was just a little over a year old when I thought I absolutely could not stand for my H to touch me again. That's how bad it had gotten. But still, I thought he was the problem. I tried to leave him and go back home to my parents....just assuming that would be fine with them. Obviously I had not grown up enough b/c they were not too thrilled at my news. Anyway, I was pressured to go back and work on my M (b/c I was raised as a good Christian girl, too). Things would get a little better, but we had issues in the bedroom for most of our M. Many years later, our kids were grown......and I was having an A with a stranger I met over the Internet!!! Who was this person I had become? Well, I won't continue with this story right now, except to say I am here today b/c of the help I received from MWD books, and this board. Oh, and I am still in my M!
I really, really don't want to see you and your W make some of the mistakes that were made in my MR. Your W is so close to leaving you, that it scares me. I don't want to contradict any advice you may have already received. I don't want to contradict my own advice I have been known to give regarding a wayward W situation and confuse any readers. But right now, and until I see something else...….I am not going to talk as if she is wayward. I think she is on the verge, but for now, I am just going to talk about your sitch, as I feel impressed...okay?
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She totally seems like there is at least some PPD going on—but I’m not going to push her on it. I’ve said it before—if things are really all that bad (with me, or with PPD, or anything else), she needs to be in front of a professional every week or two
You have made similar comments, and I'm sure that in your way of rationalizing she should know to get herself to a doctor or therapist. Remember me saying how I thought the problem was my H? Maybe she feels that way, too. Anyway, I just can't help but empathize with both of you, and I really believe this M can be saved if the two of you can be in agreement about some issues. One being...….the birth control vs none BC. First let me say that I am not here to criticize your religious beliefs. You sound very strong in your faith, and should I say something that is offensive, please know it was through ignorance and not intentional.
I always planned to marry a man from the same religious beliefs as mine. So, there were not many boys I dated that weren't from the same church. My H and I came from very similar backgrounds, religious beliefs, education, etc. I have always considered that a blessing, when I see other couples struggling over their beliefs. Anyway, to get on with what I wanted to say...…...my first baby was barely two months old when I realized I was pregnant again. I realized it when I started miscarrying. I had gone on the BC pill, but obviously it had not gone into effect quick enough. At first, I was in shock, and then guess what happened? I was scared to have sex! If I could get pregnant that easy...….I didn't want my H hanging his pants on the bedpost! I suffered another miscarriage before our second child was born. So,. enough about me. Just wanted you to know I understand a little bit where your W might be emotionally/mentally at the moment. I also can see your side, and how you thought you had the perfect match for a lifetime partner.
Since there is tension over your W getting an IUD, I suggest you not make any remarks, comments, facial expressions, sighs or grunts that indicate your feelings on the subject. I don't know your W personally, but I am willing to bet that she highly resents religious views on not using any BC methods at this time in her life. Although she might have shared the same views before having the second baby...….actually going through the process can change a woman's opinion, b/c every pregnancy & delivery is different. It is real easy to resent a H who talks as if they both are pregnant, both are giving birth, nursing, etc...…..when she's thinking, "What part was your body going through?" I don't have to tell you how the modern day woman looks at it as being her body, and her call......b/c I'm sure you are familiar with it. So, I won't. You are not happy that your W seems to be adopting the same views. So until we can figure out how to make the relationship better, will you be able to hold back expressing your feelings surrounding this subject?
I will start another post, since this one has become pretty wordy.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Ride back and walk-up she was not a great conversationalist, and I had to keep telling myself to STFU and not force it and learn to live with the silence.
Yes, it's hard on us talkers! However, if she's home with two little ones all day, every day, she may not have anything new or interesting to tell you.
Does she have female family members who live nearby? What about close female friends who go to the house to visit?
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I’ve been trying to validate better today. I’ve read on the threads about asking her a question about the last thing she said.
She probably needs all the validation you can give her. And, it might not hurt to complement her, especially when she looks pretty. Women's self esteem can drop and they can have body image issues after having a baby. Does she get out of the house very often?
I don't particularly like the validation statement, "I'm sorry you feel that way". Although there are times that's about all one can say, but it can be said very softly with genuine concern...…..or you can sound like a jerk while saying it. So, I encourage you to look up Wonka's validation cheat sheet. It close to the top of Newcomers forum.
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It would not be a shock to me at all if PPD is present here. But I can’t rescue her from it.
See, this is an example of how something could be said with sincere concern, or cold/callous.
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The potential EA?
Oh dear! I didn't see this part when I sent previous post. Well, she is certainly ripe to have an A.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I do hope she feels a bit differently than even a few months ago, but who knows?
I am trying to change some things—at least the things that I can, to the extent that I can.
As part of the 180s, I’m also trying to reduce complaining / pouting, as well as project more confidence. It’s interesting that you talked about ‘acting’ at the end of your post—I know it means ‘doing,’ but for me right now, it feels a lot like ‘acting’ in the sense that I’m trying something new, and it’s more of a ‘fake-it-til-you-make-it’ approach for me. Kinda like my first year of teaching—no idea what I was doing, so it all looked pretty amateurish, until I got it down—kinda like now!
Part of detaching for me has been trying to give her space and spend less time with her—hopefully that will resolve at least some of her anger towards me. But then again it could always make her angry—WHY DON’T YOU SPEND ANY TIME WITH ME ANYMORE?
But you’re right—expectations are a killer, in any respect. It’s obvious that positive expectations can get crushed, but so can negative expectations—but my MO is to expect the worst and anything other than that is a positive with respect to stuff like this.
Thank you for your thoughts, and I’ll try to respond to as much as I can.
Let me first say, you’re not offending me—I understand you mean well, are a person of faith (though there are differences between Catholics and Christians in general, and teachings on BC can be one of them), and you are trying to help me, so I’m not going to react poorly. It does take a lot to offend me, unless someone goes after something deeply personal, or rather maliciously attacks a personal belief of mine. I don’t think that’s the case here. I also understand that you believe my W is not a WW, at least not yet, and you’ll treat her more as a WAW, which is fine by me.
I really, really don’t want to see the mistakes of your MR in ours. I also don’t want to see the mistakes of our parents’ MRs here too (her parents divorce when she was 6 or 8–I forget which, and my parents had a pretty unhappy marriage on the whole and finally S / D when I was 22). I vowed to make sure that that wouldn’t happen to me. And here I am.
For your first post, with respect to BC—I’ve basically laid it down and have not pursued it since October. I spoke my peace to her about it when she told me she was getting the IUD, and I basically told her “I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s a good idea, I’m morally opposed to it, and I won’t support you on it, but I also won’t blow up our marriage over it and that I’ll pray for your conversion in time.” And that was the end of it for me. I’m not totally okay with it, but at the end of the day, I also realize that it is her conscience—I didn’t push her to do this, I expressed my feelings about it, I tried to get her help and community for Natural Family Planning (NFP), prayed for her A TON, but......nothing, not yet. I’m not going to force her on it, and I’m not going to try to convert her on it any more. And you are correct, she will not be convinced by moral arguments against it. So, since mid-October, I haven’t expressed my views on the subject.
I fear that my W is close to leaving, but I hope that is not the case. Today she’s seemed different—seemed a lot more invested in me. She’s talked a lot today about doing things around our place later (we should put this in front of the fireplace for when YS starts crawling / walking), talked about sending me breast milk for me to use with YS while she is at training in the fall. She just seems different. I know, I know—believe nothing they say. And I’m trying not to get myself sucked back into things with her—c’mon Bo, don’t get sucked back in, don’t fall for it, or her.
I just don’t know what to believe—it’s hard for me to trust her. Like she’s buttering me up to knife me in the back emotionally later.
For your second post: Her mom (my MIL) lives out here—but that’s it for close family, for either of us. It’s always kinda been us on our own out here in SoCal, for the most part. She does have some female friends from work, but I think she needs some good, quality sisterhood (which I also tried to get for her for the whole NFP thing). We really don’t have too many visitors—now with 2 small kids, her having a busy work schedule and me having the demands of a teacher’s life, free time is really hard to come by.
With respect to the compliments, I’m not doing it, because I’ve given up pursuing her at the moment. Sometimes she looks amazing, like last weekend, or even today going to the story where she wore blue jeans, a cami underneath, and a tighter Nike black jacket over the cami. And she smelled great—really put on the peach body spray hard-core, and it smelled like it was concentrated towards my side of the bed. She tried to get out of the house more while she was on leave, but it was touch and go.
I’ll have to revisit the validation cheat sheet—I do understand that some of what I say / express can come across as cold and callous—it’s not totally my intent, but part of me doesn’t especially care right now. Though the PPD quote was genuine—I truly can’t save her, it’s not my place, not my battle.
It’s hard to want to pursue or emotionally embrace someone who has her finger hovering over a button that could nuke our marriage. Sounds harsh, but it’s where I’ve been at.
I’m sure she’s ripe to having an A....and I probably am too. But this guy has been in her life for the last 3.5 years or so. I’ve had to learn to swallow it and accept his presence in her life for work. But I’m not okay with it, and will probably never completely be.
I hope this helps, but please ask / comment if I need to clear anything up. Thank you!
I also understand that you believe my W is not a WW, at least not yet, and you’ll treat her more as a WAW, which is fine by me.
I wasn't seeing her as either one when I first posted. I recognized everything that was setting the stage. I saw her on the verge of becoming a WW, but was hoping it could be turned around before more damage was done to the MR. I saw her as a young mother suffering from PPD. Having personally suffered PPD, I know how vulnerable a woman can feel, along with other issues that resulted in disappointments and unfulfilled expectations.
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I’m sure she’s ripe to having an A....and I probably am too. But this guy has been in her life for the last 3.5 years or so. I’ve had to learn to swallow it and accept his presence in her life for work. But I’m not okay with it, and will probably never completely be.
Since becoming a wife, has she always had male friends that sort of left you excluded from their friendship activity? How does she act about her phone? Does she guard it, lay it down face first, keep it glued to her everywhere she goes in the house? When texting, does she try to hide the message from you, turning the phone where you can't see what she is typing? When she receives a call or text, does she go to another room to take it, or turn where you can't see who is contacting her? Does she sleep with it? Do you ever look at her phone, pick it up when it rings, etc.? If so, does she try to take it from you before you see anything (considering you pick it up in her presence)?
Even if she sees this other guy and her as "just friends", she is so vulnerable for male attention, emotional closeness, and adoration, that that so-called friendship can shift gears quicker than snapping your fingers. He's in an unhappy M, too, so that increases the chances of an EA. And, let me tell ya...…..EA's are very serious, especially for the woman. If you are one of these men who say they aren't too worried about it, as long as it doesn't become a PA...…..then you aren't fully aware of the damage an EA can cause a MR. The OM may be in for kicks, or to feed his ego....or hoping it will lead to a PA, but it goes much deeper for the woman.
Does she get out much since the baby was born? How old is he now?
As for your thoughts about having to accept the OM's presence in your MR...……...no, you don't have to accept it. Anytime a spouse feels uncomfortable about a friendship the other spouse is pursuing....(or not pursuing)……..it should end the minute this is expressed to that spouse. And if that spouse chooses the friendship over the MR, then one of the spouses is way off track. Know what I mean? You are the man in this MR, the head of the home, and the protector. If you ask your W to end the contacts with OM, and she refuses, then she is giving more value to her relationship with OM......than her relationship with you. Now, if you were some unreasonable, jealous, controlling H who never approved of anyone that was her friend.....then I might question the motive. But, I don't get that impression from you.
You are a man who believes in doing what is morally right, and if you feel this "friendship" is becoming a threat to your MR, then you may need to consider addressing it. I don't know if others have already discussed it with you. I don't know if you have studied the link on setting boundaries. If you haven't, then I suggest you start reading it. Don't make any sudden moves. Just read it. That's all.
Here's the thing. If she can't have private friendships or male friendships that excludes you...……...then the same rule applies to your friendships. If she is uncomfortable about you being friends with someone and she wants you to end it...…….will you? Even your lifelong friend? If your W felt threatened or suspected some OW was getting too close for comfort...….would you drop the friend? You need to think about it carefully, before opening your mouth about your W's friendships. And, I'm certainly not accusing or comparing your friendships to an inappropriate friendship she might be having. You can't have a doubled standard, and that's what your W will try to hit you with, if you have female friendships that exclude her.
I'm going to express a few thoughts that you may not like, or agree, but there is something that is causing concern for me. Maybe you are just trying to build confidence or it's a way to keep you distracted, or maybe b/c you haven't had sex in a while, IDK. I'm referring to the little remarks about your female students, co-workers, or just women in your vicinity. I don't really think you mean anything serious about what you say, and don't get me wrong, you can express whatever you want. It's your thread. At first, I thought you may be trying to psych yourself up to get through this ordeal. It just seems that those statements are linked to the way you have talked about not getting sex....and how you know you wouldn't have trouble getting a woman (should there be a D).......and your W's physical appearance after having the baby. Do you agree that it could be seen as disrespectful to criticize the one who has given birth to your child within the past recent months....not to mention what that does to your own mindset.
Can you say how much of what you are feeling is tied to the IUD, and how much is tied to having no sex? I think it's all connected, but the main vein to your problem seems to be the lack of sex. If this is true, then I suspect she reads it loud and clear. She could be seeing you as acting selfish, unconcerned, cold, and pouting. Now, if she's emerged in an affair, then cancel that last sentence. If she's not in an EA, yet, then I'm concerned that she is not seeing the guy you are trying to represent.
Do you see yourself as a guy with NGS? You made some references to how you use to be, but unless I have forgotten something (and it's possible) I can't say I have really noticed it. Maybe I need to read your first thread again.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Lots of family time: Saturday—grocery store (W asked me when we got to beer / wine if I wanted anything for NYE or if we were good with what we have—for me, first mention of NYE. Last year’s NYE involved movies, tons of drinking, and some fooling around.) Also, church, dinner. Sunday—Knott’s Berry Farm.
I’ll address Sandi’s comments in a secondary post.
I’ll try to address your points as much as I can. I may take them in scattershot order, but I’ll start at the bottom about the NGS stuff.
I ordered the book NMMNG, and it should be arriving soon. Obviously, I’d have to read the whole thing, and even if I did I may self-diagnose poorly (because everyone self-diagnoses poorly). From what I’ve seen on the forum and in other places, I’d have to say that while I’m not sure I’m full-blown NGS, I’m sure I exhibit at least some symptoms, including:
*covert contracts *over-apologizing *over-explaining *complaining / letting things get to me that really shouldn’t *being a doormat *sarcasm *passive-aggression (to a certain extent)
I’m sure that there may be some aspects littered in previous posts by me, and that’s fine—first step in recovery is acknowledging you have a problem. But, I’m trying to root out as many of these as possible. I realize I may not be able to fully eradicate everything (some of these qualities may be hard-wired into me), but at best I’ll hope to minimize as much as I can.
I’m sure that some of my comments about sex / moving on is me trying to psyche myself / build myself up and exhibit PMA. I’m also sure that part of it is at least me acting out about not having sex in almost 2 months. The sex cravings have subsided for now, which is good.
One thing I’ve read in the threads is the idea of seeing myself as a prize—for W, or for someone else down the road if D happens. I’ll be honest—I don’t want a D (who does?), but I also know that I need to mentally prepare myself for the worst. Of course, there is always the possibility of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I also don’t want to be a LBS who is all ‘woe is me’ when that BD hits. I do know that I was good enough for my W to marry, even though a lot of my qualities I now have more or less were present on our wedding day. In some instances I have changed, but the bulk of my character has stayed largely the same. The same is true for her—at least, I hope. But at the end of the day, I do know that I can be a prize to at least one woman out there. I do hope it’s current W, though, but I can’t take that for granted right now.
The whole not finding my wife all that attractive thing? I can see how that can be viewed as disrespectful towards the mother of our children, especially with the body issues that can result post-pregnancy. For me, though, attraction is physical / visual, yes—but it is also emotional and spiritual (so, all of the above). My wife’s current mental state (whether caused by PPD or not) and her spiritual state (not sure where she is at with God) definitely DO NOT HELP with any sort of attraction.
But it’s also hard to be attracted to (and want to be with) someone who has expressed the possibility of a S / D. As I’ve seen on other posts, why should I want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me? I’m being pushed away, denied love / sex / affection, and someone is trying to ‘fire’ me from my vocation? It’s hard to want someone like that.
But since we’re on the topic of respect (and get ready with 2x4s in case I deserve them): How respectful is it of her to consider breaking marriage vows / marriage covenant? If I was abusive towards her or the boys physically, emotionally or sexually, of if I cheated on her, then I’d deserve whatever I get. How respectful is it to get an ILYBINILWY BD? How respectful is it to have someone float the possibility of a ‘break’ or an S? How respectful is it to be withheld love / affection / sex, when I haven’t done all that wrong?
I’ll admit my flaws and the areas in which I need to change. But earlier on she admitted that she was concerned that it wasn’t real, and later on that I’d backslid on a number of things anyway.
The way I look at it: It’s about time I show some g-damn respect for myself and our marriage. I’m trying to make some changes in myself, and I’m not the one threatening to leave. Don’t WS / WAS stray or walk-away because of a lack of respect towards LBS?
I’ll admit I’ve not always been the perfect spouse, or even a very good husband or father at times. I’ve struggled with anxiety / depression at various points in my life, as well as a cross-country move and a career change, as well as a stint as a SAH Daddy. That said, I know what I’m capable of, I know I can be really, really good (and at the risk of sounding immodest, I’m sure a number of women would probably love to put up with some of my flaws if W won’t), but I also know that I’m trying to improve.
W has criticized me a lot over the last year or so, basically, whether or not I’ve justified it. I know life is not always ‘eye-for-an-eye,’ but wouldn’t I be a NGS if I just rolled over and said ‘oh yes hun whatever you say I’ll work on it pls don’t leave me.’ She’s a flawed human being, too, but I haven’t thrown her flaws in her face all that much during this time period. I’ve tried my hardest to show her love, growth, acceptance, stepping up in responsibilities, and yes some of it was so she’d notice and quiet the talk about S / D. But all the hard work that I thought I did over the spring and summer, what did that get me come Fall? Her floating possibility of a break / S—doesn’t seem fair.
And I’m sure that there has to be some PPD present here. I also know that in struggling with my own depression / anxiety issues in the past, it can be really hard to want to seek help. I get that. But this is a battle I can’t fight for her, truly.
But the thing is—even if it is PPD, how fair is it for her to level all of what she said at me because of her PPD? I’m sure there are some kernels of truth in what she is unhappy about. Fair enough. But I also don’t feel like D is the answer (and I know it’s not about what I feel or what I think is fair, or trying to reason with her). How respectful is it of her to blame me for just about everything—hormone levels or not? Which is worse—she’s truly serious about this, or she’s hormonal and went off the rails and doesn’t totally mean it?
It’s not totally my fault she got pregnant. Pretty sure it takes 2 on that one, and she enjoyed getting there I believe.
It’s not totally my fault she failed her first fit test last fall. Can’t help it she has asthma (that’s genetics).
It’s also not my fault that the feds gave her an arbitrary deadline of doing that test before March, when the cut-off for that position is 37, and she’s only 30.
It’s also not totally my fault she got herself in really good shape a couple of years ago and didn’t capitalize on a chance to take and pass her fit test then.
Long story short, she also needs to grow the F up and look at herself and realize that at least some of her unhappiness starts and ends with herself.
I may have contributed to some of her problems, but I’m not the full cause of everything that makes her unhappy. That also means I can’t fix it for her. And unless she puts the work in (preferably with a professional), she will continue to be unhappy—unhappily married to me, unhappily single, unhappily with another man down the road, whatever. That root unhappiness will chase her all the days of her life unless / until she actually fixes it.
Last thing, before I address the potential EA in another post:
She may see me as selfish, unconcerned, cold and pouting? Could be. Sometimes my actions don’t perfectly communicate my feelings. I’m trying to give her the space and detachment that has been suggested to me here. Am I doing so perfectly? Probably not.
I know it’s not supposed to be about her (it’s supposed to be about me and what I should be doing), BUT: how has she not been selfish, unconcerned, cold and pouting through all of this? Please don’t tell me that it’s because of the hormones—I’m sure it is to a certain extent, but she has had no problems holding me accountable for the times that I’ve acted out because of emotions or fatigue or stress or whatever I may be going through (physiologically or not). I know being pregnant is way different from anything I could ever experience—but I don’t deserve threats, outbursts or sullenness from her, either. Should I be merciful towards her? As a Christian, or even a decent human being—yes—but the first step is admitting that there is a problem and working towards fixing it.
I know I shouldn’t be fighting fire with fire here, but if it’s a life without me that she is seriously considering, then perhaps she should be getting a preview of that here. I don’t want to get too far into mind-reading, but: maybe she’s picking up on that over the last few weeks and realizes that the space and distance isn’t what she really wants or needs. Or maybe it suits her perfectly and she realizes she would be better off. Who knows.
You are not happy that your W seems to be adopting the same views. So until we can figure out how to make the relationship better, will you be able to hold back expressing your feelings surrounding this subject?