Sandi's Reflections - Part 2

[RR17]

Sandi, I posting this here to avoid hijacking neffer's thread.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm just sorry I didn't see it when you first posted. I'm not able to stay on top of things as I once did (or thought I did). I only remember one other WH posting on the board, but he didn't stay long.

Thank you also for the kind words about how much our posts have helped you, b/c it is really encouraging. I was still wayward when I arrived on the board, and I give a ton of credit to the mentors I had back during that time. It played a big part in my decision to end my A and stay with my H. I was on this board from the minute I got home from work, until I would nearly fall asleep at the computer every night. Years ago, we were able to contact members privately, so I was getting extra help in my time of feeling weak and tempted. I went through several months of hard withdrawals, and another several months of what I suppose could be determined lighter withdrawals. In a minute, I'll tell you why I think it took me so long.

I was very depressed after ending my A. And, I was struggling with some health issues (before and after the A) and doctors had switched my meds around, until it's a wonder I have any sense at all. I didn't want to take responsibility for having an A, but I finally did. I was not thrilled to be staying in my M. It was just the right thing to do. That's what some LBS's don't understand. The decision to stay in the M, doesn't mean all the emotions are immediately set right.

I think there are some significant differences in a wayward W and a wayward H, simply b/c of the differences in women and men's makeup. For example, you felt protective over your W and son. That's how men usually see their responsibility, or their role as the protector over the family. Maybe that's why it is so shocking when we read about some WW who left her own children behind in order to be with the OM.....or live like a girl gone wild. There have been several WW's to come & go since I've been a board member, and every single one was alike in their type of mindset, etc. Anyway, it would be interesting to compare notes with a former WH.

It took me nearly two years before I felt like I had reached the point of having the energy to work on my MR. Now, I don't want that to discourage you. I'm just being real with you. This was me, but it's not to say it will be you. You see, I made the decision to do the right thing, end my A and stay in my M. However, my feelings did not change for some time. Yes, I ended my A, and went totally NC with OM, etc. But......it did not stop the fantasizing in my head. And, those little games your mind likes to play...….the "what ifs" or "what may have been". Then I realized I was keeping the A alive in my mind. I could stay busy during the day, come to the board at night, but once I finally went to bed...….here would come the fantasizing. I didn't know how to turn it off. Truth was, I hadn't really tried as hard as I'd like to have admitted. Then something else hit me. Call it God or whatever (I call it God), and that was the fact I had not shown any remorse or even given a humble apology to my H. Why? B/c I wasn't remorseful! I still had a chip on my shoulder. Well, no wonder my feelings for my H had not changed!

Did I mention I wasn't sleeping too well, either? Okay, so finally I started praying that God would help me to feel remorseful, b/c I knew I should be and that I needed to apologize sincerely to my H. Oh boy, when it came, it nearly killed me. My H had stayed up late and I was tossing & turning in bed. I went to him to apologize, and I was so broken he could barely understand what I was saying......but he "knew" what I was trying to do. Afterwards, I went back to bed and slept for the first time in forever. It was still tempting to fantasize about OM, but I started praying every time those kind of thoughts started. Guess that was a good antidote b/c one day I realized the fantasies had stopped.

I'd like to say that that took care of everything, but it didn't. However, it was a start. It would take time for my feelings to catch up. I had to start doing things on purpose (as the kids say). In other words, I had to do things out of my "will" rather than waiting on my "feelings". For example, I willed myself to treat my H with respect. Eventually, the feelings caught up, and I truly did/do respect him. I had so much hard work to do on my heart/mindset. I had to get rid of all those unresolved issues from the past. I had to forgive my H for a host of things. I didn't want to, but God made me realize if my H could forgive me, who was I to say I wouldn't or couldn't forgive him. WW's are very prideful, and that's why humbleness is important. I had to let go of a bunch of old cr@p. It really is a process the wayward spouse has to go through, IMHO, to find their way back again. The LBS has to go through their own healing and forgiving, and so does the wayward spouse. They each have their own different type of process to go through, and then they have to work together to piece their MR together. It's tough!

Some MR's can bounce back faster than others. Frankly, I have doubts when a LBS starts talking about how quickly their WS is progressing and everything is lovey-dovey. Maybe that's just me, or maybe it's b/c I know how much work is involved.

Well, I don't think I've told you anything you don't already know, or read where I've said it. I just want you to know that it can get better. I feel that I was extremely blessed to have the H I have (yes, the one I disrespected so badly) and received the help from some wise people. Although you may be still struggling, you can become stronger by remaining on the board, paying forward what you have experienced/learned.....and are still learning. Piecing is not for sissies, that's for sure. Don't give up. I thought I would never be happy again. I thought I missed my chance when I let OM go. I was wrong on both counts.

This entry really resonates with me and I have a few questions:

Not to get tied up on titles, but at what point do you consider that you were piecing? Was it when you decided to do the right thing and stay in the MR or when you admitted remorse or perhaps at some other point?
Given your own experience and years of reading here would you say that some of these steps don't always happen in the same order? (particularly the decision to will yourself to do the right things and heartfelt apology)
During your time willing your self, was there anything that you believe an H should do, outside of continuing DB basic?

As always, thanks for your valuable contributions.

[sandi2]

Not to get tied up on titles, but at what point do you consider that you were piecing? Was it when you decided to do the right thing and stay in the MR or when you admitted remorse or perhaps at some other point?

That's a really good question. I was still in the house with my H, and we had not claimed to be in an in-house type of separation......just to clarify for readers. For me, when I made the decision to do the right thing and ended the A with OM, I considered the MR to be piecing. I had read information about the importance of transparency, and I immediately started being open about my computer activity, etc. As stated in the post you copied, I tried hard not to deliberately show disrespect toward my H. I was focused on trying to get through the withdrawals, come to the DB every day, and address my health issues. This may not have appeared as the 110% effort my H said he initially wanted from me, but in time he was convinced I was being honest and had ended my A. Luckily for me, he is a very patient man.

Some of the hardest work for the WW is in her heart. The H may be working on his 180's or whatever, but she has to get rid of all that resentment, disrespect, and rebellious feelings she accumulated over the years. I'll try not to repeat what I said in that post again, except to say it is a process for her to work on her attitude, heart, speech and overt behavior. I mean, I was not feeling like a happy camper by any means. I couldn't just bounce back into being the W I used to be.

That brings me to the second part about admitting the remorse. When I was able to put away my stubborn pride, and really deal with the fact I had not forgiven my H for things that happened years ago....and I started facing the hurt and devastation to my family.....I began feeling humble. The remorse came, and I truly forgave my H for the past issues. I was able to genuinely apologize for my betrayal. Once that happened, then the desire to put effort in other ways begin to come. Before that, I had no "want to", no energy, no drive. I had too much garbage in my heart.

Given your own experience and years of reading here would you say that some of these steps don't always happen in the same order? (particularly the decision to will yourself to do the right things and heartfelt apology)

I don't think everyone's steps come in the very same order, and certainly not within the same
time frame. As similar as wayward spouses seem, the circumstances are individual and people go at their own pace. There have been couples who experience more than one false start (as it's called), and many WS backslide before they get completely through the withdrawals. I do believe it's essential for the wayward spouse to go through the process of cleaning up his/her heart. I believe it's very tough to make a happy, loving MR without the recovering WS experiencing a humble attitude.

I was very, very blessed to receive the information I needed at that time. I was getting it every day from the board. I have to wonder how many WS's get that type of information on a daily basis?

During your time willing your self, was there anything that you believe an H should do, outside of continuing DB basic?

Yes, I believe the recovering wayward spouse needs a lot of encouragement and support while trying to get through the withdrawals and just doing trying to do the right thing but not really "feeling it". It's not easy for the faithful spouse to know how to balance some of it without smothering the recovering WS.

I think professional guidance is important, and the faithful spouse should insist upon it. I think the WS needs information about what they are experiencing and how to proceed. My H would not go, but I got my help from the board. I also know he was reading what I was posting on the board, b/c he was watching my computer history. So, I think he got a little information, too.

I recommend the faithful spouse try to incorporate more fun activities and have group settings when possible, rather than pushing for romantic settings right off the bat...….especially if they've been in a SSM, and the WS was in an A, etc. I do believe the faithful spouse should insist (if need be) that they sleep in the same bed. They don't have to have sex right off the bat, but don't let the WS come back under the premise of being in separate bedrooms. While reconciling, this is the time to build the "friendship" side of the relationship (that's not the word I like to use referring to a M couple, but maybe it gives the right message of what I mean.) If the faithful spouse is the H, and if they were in a SSM, I think he should make it clear to his W that he will not settle for a life without sex. He needs to make his stipulations or conditions very clear upon them reconciling.

When it is the W that's been wayward, I think the H should not fear holding her accountable for her whereabouts, activities, etc. If the faithful spouse does not feel comfortable about something the WS wants to do apart from their spouse being with them, they need to express their concerns. The WW or WH should not be going off on trips without their perspective spouses. I'm old fashion, but I don't think a wife/mother should be out hitting the clubs/bars without her H when she is suppose to be recovering from waywardness and walking the straight & narrow path.

The faithful spouse should not agree to simply pick up the MR where they left off, without the WS doing the work.

Give the WS some space, but don't leave them alone for an extended amount of time, when they are going through withdrawals, and especially if they are reluctant to be transparent. Just don't make them feel like your breathing down their neck all the time. Don't smother with your presence. Yeah, it's a tough job being the faithful spouse.

I'm not sure if I'm addressing the type of things you wanted to know. Let me know.

[SoTorn]

WW's are very resentful toward the H. They will rewrite history and make it sound as if they were treated terribly, had to sacrifice happiness, etc. It's a way they try to justify what they are doing currently. She knows having an affair is wrong, but she'll try to justify it by making you out to be the bad guy.

Don't acknowledge her text. She's baiting you into a fight. You know the truth, and you won't make her change her mind or admit how it really was.

I suggest you stop responding to any texts that does not ask a direct question about the kids. You can tell when she is on a rampage, so don't get hooked by responding.

Thank you Sandi. Detach and GAL is at minimum protecting me emotionally. I spoke with an attorney. He said do not move out. He said that I am being very mature about this and that the longer I stay and keep acting like I am, at minimum it builds a better R with kids and shows them how to be a mature adult. He said that it looks great in court that I can detach and focus on the kids without conflict because it shows I'm invested in the kids.

[harvey]

I wish there was a similar expert who gave us her musings on the WAW.

[RR17]

Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2

[Cadet]

Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2

BINGO

And there is NO difference in what YOU do.

Its all the same.

[lost8]

Sandi your responses are invaluable coming from the perspective of a former WW and we all appreciate the time that you have devoted to helping so many of us. I hope it is ok to ask you specifically for advice on your thread.

My WW of 6 months seems to be interested in spending more time with me and is slowly offering up more and more in brief discussions. Now granted I will admit she has been drinking a fair amount and I know this is still her self medicating through her IC work addressing many abusive relationships since back to her early teens and maybe even before. Her latest abusive relationship was a boss of 7 years that she recently resigned from and is now working from home. My W had often gone out after work to HH or other social functions at her previous job but now working from home is not interested in that much outside the house unless she is with me.

In the past few weeks I have heard the "I'm sorrys", her IC work has relieved her of the resentment that she has had for me and my family and she is expressing that, many ILYs from her, doesn't want to lose me, wants me to sleep in MBR, physical intimacy, etc. Last night she talked about R and I expressed not being able to feel the pain that she has been in from her past life but only the pain that I have felt the last 6 months or so and was very upset and acknowledge what she had done.

Her biggest concern is not wanting me to take her independence and being able to go where she wants when she wants but I know......big red flags. I don't ask but she tells me and will still stay out overnight because of the drinking. She has expressed that we do have to discuss the A at some point but we have not addressed details yet but that may be coming soon. I haven't asked if it is still ongoing or at least contact with OM but she is home all the time and when I am there she is not on her phone like she used to be and would do it right in my face.

I will be honest I am not ready to R until she is 100% onboard and although she does not want to spend time out like she used to, she is saying that her "friends" are upset because she doesn't hang out anymore. The "friends" could be OM pressuring and she could be fighting it like you experienced. At this point I feel emotionally detached from her and only in the last few weeks have responded to her wants because of physical attraction. She has said that she can't wait for me to get home from work, wants to spend evenings with me, wants to come places with me even if I am just running out.

I guess my question is what do I do from here, the steps aren't laid out as clearly when the sitch gets to this point? I see her trying to get back to me but I have not opened up or let her back in. The A needs to be addressed and where she stands with OM but how does that happen? She is progressing to opening up and I don't even want to ask...honestly don't care. I am truly at the point where if we split, I'm good and have told her it would be a long road to a new MR because of the damage that has been done and the intense therapy program she is in.

[RR17]

I'm not sure if I'm addressing the type of things you wanted to know. Let me know.

You did address a lot of what I was looking for. In my sitch and I can't believe I am the only one, WW is demonstrating all of the signs of the "Will herself to do the right things" stage. It took a while to trust that it wasn't just to throw me off her trail. But I see it almost exactly as you described your sitch. BTW, I believe this stage deserves a legit Label.

So question is, stubborn W hasn't admitted that she is piecing or staying or anything. I have heard "For now I am still here" but as offten said here, actions speak louder than words. I think due to self esteam issues blah blah blah, she will always struggle to admit how wrong she was.
I do believe she is trying to show me.
Anyway, I don't think the feelings are all back, so she is still Willing herself. And I have tried to be supportive as you described. I also think W is waiting to see if my changes are perminate. So some of the advice that you provided seems out of reach. We are doing a lot of this Friendly activity stuff that you described. But telling her that I reqire for her to move back to the MBR seems confrintational. Telling her that sex will be expected seems like fighting words. It is my gut feeling but I think these are the kind of things she is withholding until the feelings return. I hope this makes sence. I am in no way justifing her feelings, simply sharing what I believe is going on.
As has often been discused on my thread and in my sitch is comunication problems. From this group I have learned a new term, Covert Contracts. W comes from a family culture of these contracts. Certian things should just be known. Good luck, right?
So should I find the best way to comunicate the above requirments or continue to be patient?
Thanks for your responce.

[neffer]

Hey RR, Sandi...sorry for my intrusion...

RR, why not getting out of the comfort zone?...like doing some travelling?...I have done some of that.


patience RR (sorry, I had to say it ;))

[harvey]

Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2

BINGO

And there is NO difference in what YOU do.

Its all the same.

I understand there is no difference in what I do. I understand that Sandi's posts are helpful to a lot of people. I find it interesting to read the mind of a WW, but my WAW has little resentment for me. There is no distance-pursuit. She treats me like a friend. I realize that could change with time. I've detached relatively well, so I'm not basing my actions on her. It would just be interesting to have a perspective from a WAW.