Introduction

[Accuray]

Again I just feel like I've never heard of someone being so self-convinced of an alternate reality than this man seems to be, especially given the good times the relationship had. To be able to push those parts out and be so absorbed in himself and this sudden danger he's protecting himself from seems to be legitimately crazy the more I think about it. I can't help but wonder if there's truly something that can't be done in these cases to get people to see the flaws in their minds, or if it's more like a disease with no cure that some people will just succumb to without any chance of changing that.

Although it feels like your H is "the worst" example of this, everyone feels that way really. Everyone believes their sitch is exceptional and worse than others they read.

During my time on the board people were talking about this as alien possession, as if a space alien came down and is now possessing the body of your H. Often the change in personality is that extreme.

Its like a form of self-hypnosis that is done in the interest of self-preservation. The root of it, really, is guilt, and knowing that he's done bad things.

That is 100% the basis of "act as if"

If you've got a wayward who is acting this extreme due to his sense of guilt, then what happens if he sees you acting sad, or making statements about how upset you are? That makes his guilt worse! Then he has to hypnotize himself even MORE to protect himself.

Then, if you pursue him and he has to continue to reject you, he feels even MORE guilty, and then he has to hypnotize himself even MORE to protect himself.

It creates this giant wall around him and each time a DB'er backslides and pursues, another brick gets stacked up on the wall.

So if you "act as if", and appear happy, upbeat, and like you're unaffected by his actions, then you are NOT exacerbating his guilt.

You're removing the consequences associated with being around you.

Over time, it makes it safe for him to begin dismantling the wall, because its no longer really protecting him from anything.

At that point, the wayward has the space and freedom to FINALLY do some introspection, and then they begin to realize that maybe it was not "always bad" and maybe, just maybe, they ALSO contributed to how things ended up, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, in many cases, that space isn't really granted until the LBS has fully moved on. So giving the appearance of having moved on emotionally is what "act as if" is all about, its about accelerating that wall-desconstructing phase. It takes a ton of discipline to pull if off in a compelling way, but that's why we do it.

Acc

[TJT]

Thanks Steve & Acc.

An interesting "advancement" has occurred since my last post. I am still able to see my husband's online calendar (we shared them a long time back). As the calendar flipped to November, I opened it on my phone today and noticed later this month an entry that says, "1 year, HOLY S***!!!!!".

I couldn't figure out what would be 1 year ago from a date in November this year, or why the reaction would so emphatic in any case. We were in the middle of building our house so I know it wasn't a job anniversary (and again the reaction wouldn't seem to match if that was it). Pretty sure he wasn't a drug addict going 1 year sober. Of course I had an inkling as to what it was, but I said to myself, let's scroll back to one year ago and see what was there on the calendar.

And guess where I was???

On a business trip. Definitely not home.

I think I found my anger.

I feel like some people won't think this really changes much, but for me it gives a valuable new perspective, having an additional piece of validation (feels stupid to even call it that) that this really WASN'T just a short-term thing (which I suspected but didn't know for how long). And then, now knowing how long, that it was happening exactly at the times where I was trying to ask my H what was wrong...and to please come sleep in the room with me...writing him long letters telling him how much I wanted to choose him even if we don't always get along...asking him if he was sure he wanted to go through with the house if he felt unhappy and him completely downplaying and acting like if we still were having problems in 5 years it would be more of an issue. Going on our anniversary dinner a month from that date last year only to have him texting almost the entire time. (He told me it was people at work needing something from him...now I can just imagine him texting his hussy and joking about what a terrible time he must be having with his miserable wife at dinner)..

My mother suggested he dragged it out to take advantage of me and the extra money it afforded him during this time. But we ended up both deciding that didn't make sense because ALL the money he was saving by being with me he totally, 100% LOST in the house. It completely cleared out the savings that was completely in an account only under his name! So WHY would he do that?? It leaves more questions.

But I feel like it answers a few, too. This is a man who had time realize if his escapade was just something he would feel bad about later. He had time to try to work on things with me if he really wanted, while I was clearly trying, and he chose not to. Granted, seems like it wasn't a full time relationship for a full year (unless I'm seriously WAY more blind than I thought) - but if it was so much ongoing/serious, and if they both seemed so sure that they really didn't want to be with their respective SOs (vs. wanting the best of both worlds) you would think at LEAST with something as major as a house that my H would have found even some other excuse to not go forward with it. I mean I had practically opened up the conversation for him to back out of it myself!!

Part of me wonders if despite his attitude and what he's saying NOW, if he really did question his side relationship the whole time and that's the reason for the ambivalence.

I know nobody will ever know but him. And regardless, it has prompted me to say wow... to your point Steve...there is definitely much of this, probably more than I even thought, that is NOT me (and I say that as responsibly as possible).

And I have further questioned myself, even if he came back to me right at this moment... whether I even know enough about this man to be able to be confident in MY capacity to "re-marry" him. It seems he would have to completely change as a PERSON. This has made me feel like this is more of a personal flaw in how he handles life than just a fleeting phase in his identity. I want to think the latter but that's because I don't want it to be true.

I feel like this has given me a good knock on the head to show that I am possibly holding on to hope that, while perhaps it exists, is SO small, and SO unlikely, that it will only do me more harm than good and is just fooling myself to keep "leaning" on it and holding myself in limbo while he's clearly doing whatever.

I have validated to myself that the only reason I have not filed for D myself is because I haven't let him go. Yet as a result of this information, I WANT to more than ever. The logical side of me is tailing my every move, wondering when I will have enough. I just question whether I can actually let go without actually filing for D - it falls absolutely in line with what you are saying, Acc, that I don't feel like I could really give him that space until I've ACTUALLY moved on and don't want the marriage anymore. I don't see myself being able to truly GAL and move on not caring or thinking about him in relation to my actions until we are not actually married anymore. Because that's the NORMAL way to think, right?? And yes it's ironic because we all know that he obviously thinks absolutely nothing about that annoying detail... and apparently neither does his gal pal!!

So after all of this I went into a reactive spiral of anger, almost immediately going to file online and thinking of how I could let him know that I know. Text him and just tell him to call me so I can say it straight up?? Wish him happy anniversary on the day he has on the calendar?? Don't worry - I realized just as quickly that was NOT the answer. He doesn't care. And as much as I want to call him out and "prove" myself to him, I've learned my lesson at this point that - as Accu has said - it will only re-validate his own story line.

But then I thought to myself, do I care????

I feel like that thought and feeling alone (albeit a shaky, fleeting one) was a great first step toward actually letting go/detaching that I haven't had up to this point.

Regardless, I did realize that whether I care or not (i.e. whether I want to try to "change his mind" or keep DBing or not), putting my energy into letting him know would not be worth it. I mean, HE already knows what he's done. He will go to his grave with it all. And if I don't matter then I don't matter. Whether I care that I matter to him or not doesn't make a difference.

All that being said, I still don't know if I should wait longer for some reason. I certainly don't want to waste my time knowing what I know and that there's already been much more time passed than I thought, but also circumstances have changed in our relationship more recently causing some major shifts obviously that he hasn't had to deal with before.

I don't know if that's just another excuse to keep serving my own glimmers of hope as described earlier, or something really worth holding out on. I know nobody has that answer, but I'm just feeling the chances seem pretty slim and rather than thinking of this as something he might "snap out of", I am more starting to think of it as "maybe this is just WHO HE IS", that I couldn't see before, and obviously it would be unreasonable to think anything I do would ever change that - just like you all have said.

Basically yeah, I don't want to sabotage the potential opportunity to GAL and turn this around...but if it's also possible, and seems more likely, that nothing I do will matter, then even if it still hurts I can't help but wonder if I just need to file, push through the pain it causes me, and call it a day. Up to now I have sort of felt like not filing for D would make it easier for him to change his mind, but if he doesn't seem to think anything of being married to me right now, that logic doesn't make sense. And if he were ever to change his mind later, then NOT still being married to me would similarly not matter to him in attempting to reconcile. Why should I be afraid of just doing it then? Clearly I am expecting him to be thinking about this in a "healthy" way with more sensibility in which me filing for divorce would mean more to him. But that's simply not the case, point blank. And in this case I even would ask, if filing for D would HELP potentially turn it around, if it would seem like an action in his mind that shows I am moving on. But I fear it will also simply validate his own story and feel better about it all if he can tell himself "see, she wants a D finally too, phew!"

I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him, and what you've said Acc . I know that once I make that decision to "stop trying" if you will, it may be the nail in the coffin. Part of me thinks that would be fantastic. The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds. I just don't know if I'm strong enough to be someone who can act "as if". I am disappointed in that but I honestly feel like it can get unhealthy at some point to continue trying to "act" than to actually be.

Ultimately, I really am leaning more strongly toward filing sooner rather than later. But I wholeheartedly admit that it will still upset me and that it's still not what I feel I truly want the outcome to be. Yet, in summary, I know sometimes the best choice is not always the one we like. I just want to hear from you all what difference any of this makes from your perspective... and hopefully get a little sleep before re-evaluating this in the morning.

Happy weekend...

[TJT]

Journaling

I woke up feeling even crazier this morning. Very sad, wishing I could just message him and tell him how much I love him and want him to come home and just love each other!! Not even thinking about doing it, I just hate the feeling..

Also thinking crazy things like maybe I should try to engage with him in ways that make him feel needed, just to at least create the opportunity to show him any changes. Like asking if he can help with something with the house, but not in a desperate way...

I’m just feeling SUPER helpless and SUPER sad and fighting things hard today. Feeling like if don’t create an opportunity there will be none. The cycle of emotions has kicked back up as my brain went crazy again after what I learned yesterday. I made the mistake of going back and looking at our text messages from a year ago and remembered there was a time around then he was asking for “space”. Again there is a ton of proof of me trying to be supportive and tell him I love him and want him to be happy, etc. We had loving exchanges between the both of us. It seemed he was excited about our house being built. And yet there are also many examples of him working late, me asking if we could do something together, etc. So I feel even more confused and sad about what the hell went wrong and feeling like we could still be together if I just knew WHY he felt there was no other way!

I have plans to GAL today and it’s been really hard to drag myself out of bed this morning and feel excited about it. But I am still going to try. I just want off this roller coaster. I want to be happy again and loved again.

[EZdozit]

TJT,

You need to up your detachment efforts. You can control your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can’t control his.

If you decide to file that doesn’t have to be the end. I believe Steve has said in many threads even D doesn’t mean the end of a relationship. That’s how I’m approaching my sitch now. I requested to push to complete my D a couple weeks back....and now crickets from my WAW. I’ve only upped my DB efforts since I had one of my life’s true pivot events and I am finally starting to see an impact after 5 months of DB’ing. I still fully expect my D to happen...but I also believe that karma is a real thing and I do see my W flailing. I see a scared little girl who’s now lost under the facade she has fronted since BD. Heck when I had to interact with W earlier this week, she actually made the statement “Your getting everything and I’m getting nothing”...WTH?? I saw right through her logic and attempt to justify the position she has put herself in due to her choices. She’s the one that left, wanted the d, etc al. Yet I’m somehow at fault in her eyes...

I believe you know the answer as to file or not...but you can construe that if you in fact do...it in itself is an action.

You got this!

[Yorkie]

TJT

I think you are and I are at a similar place in our 'journey' I too have days where I struggle to be bothered to put one foot in front of the other and days where I'm ready to take control and sort this out once and for all. I think it's a natural reaction. I've decided that for me it is too soon to make monumental decisions and so I only make the ones that have to be made. I will have to sell the house, but we needed to downsize anyway. I won't be filing for divorce because I'm not ready.

I still have hope, the tiniest tiniest glimmer that things might work out. But more importantly I'm giving myself time to come to terms with a huge change after 27 years of marriage. I refuse to let him hurry me and I refuse to hurry myself.

I am certain that I will know when all hope has gone and am ready to divorce, so I just give myself the luxury of time.

You've just found out another upsetting part to your story. It's too soon to act on it. Give yourself time to absorb and process it rather than react to it. Eventually, I think our days when we feel crazy and manic will become fewer and fewer and that shows strength and healing.

[TJT]

TJT,

You need to up your detachment efforts. You can control your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can’t control his.

It makes sense in theory but it's definitely taking some practice! I am really NOT feeling like I can control my feelings, thoughts are a close second. I'm good controlling my actions but the first two make it a lot more confusing and end up just keeping me in limbo with INaction. Which, I guess is where I've accepted I need to be until I can master the other two and be sure any decisions I do make are something I'm good with.

It just goes back to how my inaction could be perceived, I guess. What's gotten really confusing to me is it's obvious that DBing plays a lot into psychology and what influences people, and while there are definitely some general behaviors across the board that we know are detrimental, I also feel like each individual has tendencies that need to be taken into account, or maybe even things we just don't understand. As a result, since our own default behaviors likely don't match what will work in these cases, it seems that by default we MUST think about them and their reaction to things, because otherwise we'd constantly be messing up.

So this balance of "stop thinking about him" yet "don't do the things that will mess this up" can get really confusing. That's what got me into the whole debate about whether I should file or not. It seems in some situations it's a good push, while in others it become justification for the WAS that the other person is now on the same page as them. But if I don't push, doesn't that continue to make me look desperate and sad, that he knows he's done all of this to me and yet I won't file either? How will I EVER know which way is better? So what I'm more paranoid about is not necessarily what he's doing or thinking per se, but just more around self-sabotaging any little opportunity that may be there, by simply not knowing what the opportunity is.

I don't know if this is making any sense, but I just feel like everyone else understands what to do much more clearly than I do. Or at least feels that there IS a way when I feel like there may not be.

EZ, what was your recent "pivot" moment?

I am certain that I will know when all hope has gone and am ready to divorce, so I just give myself the luxury of time.

This is essentially where I've ended back up after a few days...and I'm also taking into consideration/realizing that as long as we stay married, he's going to be limited in his ability to truly move on with HIS life, at least logistically, mostly because of the fact that he won't have any documentation about not being responsible for the house if neither of us file. So if he is planning on getting a new vehicle or getting a new place or anything, the mortgage on his credit is going to make those kinds of things pretty difficult based on his income...and he will be forced to either file, change his mind to work together again, or else live in a very limited way. At least that's what it seems like to me. Also, not sure how we'll handle it when tax time comes if we're still married...that's another thing to start thinking about in a few months. ugh.

But also, yes, I agree with you Yorkie and I'm glad you shared your feelings at this point too. I don't want to rush myself either, and as much as I'm afraid that that makes me look desperate and sad in his eyes, I know if I start to think about filing and I get super panicked about it, it's probably not the time.

[EZdozit]

[quote=TJT][quote=EZdozit]TJT,


EZ, what was your recent "pivot" moment?

TJT - I had a bogus legal situation that had been hanging over my head for 3 years thrown out and dismissed. In large part...the primary catalyst which led my w to become WAS. Since she found out...a marked difference has occurred in her behavior...but so much damage has been done....it has become something of an internal battle. My walls remain firmly up....but may take a peak over the top as things progress.

I get your internal struggle...I feel like you will truly know when you need to. At the very least, continue to use the time afforded you to be AWOAFWL!

[TJT]

Wow, that's good to hear it's finally resolved but definitely [censored] that it contributed to your sitch like it did.

Thanks for the encouragement, I'll certainly keep trying!

Today I had a generally good day of feeling a lot more stable, especially relative to the weekend. Well, aside from the HOA dues coming in the mail! This is one of those things I feel like I should ask my H to pay half of, since he's technically still on the title and won't do anything to move things forward otherwise. If he's still entitled to the house, he should still be responsible for the cost of where it sits! But I mean, like that's gonna make him want to come back.

[Accuray]

And guess where I was??? On a business trip. Definitely not home. I think I found my anger.

TJT, you're entering a new phase with this information but please remember it may not mean what you think it means. When our spouses are not faithful, our brains will fill in the worst possible interpretations of any "evidence" that we find. In my case, my W had messaged her affair partner "you asked for what you want and you got it" which I took to mean some kind of lurid sex act, but what it really meant was that they had an office birthday party for him and he requested chocolate cupcakes. In this case, you really don't know what that one year quote was in reference to, it literally could be anything. Please just keep that in mind as you go forward, your imagination is your own worst enemy.

I feel like this has given me a good knock on the head to show that I am possibly holding on to hope that, while perhaps it exists, is SO small, and SO unlikely, that it will only do me more harm than good and is just fooling myself to keep "leaning" on it and holding myself in limbo while he's clearly doing whatever.

Your course of action should be driven by what you want to do, not how he will react to it. Does that make sense? This has everything to do with you and how you want to live your life.

It is, however, useful to think about this. When we're married, we're married to three people really: (1) the person we thought our spouse was when we married them, (2) the person our spouse actually is now, and (3) the person we want our spouses to be in the future.

Unfortunately, many people see (1) and (3) much more clearly than (2), because (1) & (3) are all about us and not that much about them. If you are, or have been, "married to hope" it really can be valuable to step back and really think about "who this person is" based on what they've *done* in your marriage (not just the bad stuff), versus what they've said. What they've done, or "how they've shown up" in the marriage in the past is the best indication of how they will show up in the future. People *can* change, and the balance between you, or how you come together can change, but there's an enormous amount of inertia that must be overcome with a tremendous amount of motivation. Does he have that motivation to change things? Will he?

Regardless, I did realize that whether I care or not (i.e. whether I want to try to "change his mind" or keep DBing or not), putting my energy into letting him know would not be worth it. I mean, HE already knows what he's done. He will go to his grave with it all. And if I don't matter then I don't matter. Whether I care that I matter to him or not doesn't make a difference.

This is an excellent insight and you should pat yourself on the back for seeing things this way and understanding what that means. Live the life you want to live. Live a life anyone would admire. That's the best thing you can do. If you do that, it really doesn't matter what he decides to do or what he thinks.

I am more starting to think of it as "maybe this is just WHO HE IS", that I couldn't see before, and obviously it would be unreasonable to think anything I do would ever change that - just like you all have said.

Yes -- are you holding on to "who he is", or are you holding on to "who you have always wished he was" -- for many people there's a big difference.

I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him

YES! 100%. He represents stability, validation, and a resumption of your ability to have control over your future. That is really what you want, you want what he represents to you based on where you are right now. Step back and realize he is not those things.

If he came back tomorrow, you would not feel secure in your future with him, you would continue to struggle with validation because of how you feel about yourself due to the choices he's made, and those things combined would not allow you to feel good about your control over your future. Even if he was back you would spend some time feeling like you're leaning back in a chair that's close to falling over, and that's no way to live!

The healing process that YOU need to go through is pretty much the same whether he is in the picture or not. Your brain is trying to trick you into thinking that "getting him back" represents a shortcut to getting back to feeling how you used to feel. That shortcut does not exist. Your brain is deceiving you. You are at "square one" regardless of your future relationship with him, and you have to walk this journey *for you* no matter what he does.

Your brain needs to accept that there is not a quick win here -- there is not a path forward that doesn't totally s#ck. Embrace that and choose the path that's best for you right now, then change paths if it suits you.

The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds

That has NOTHING to do with him, and everything about you wanting to avoid feeling like you failed. Once again, even if he came back tomorrow you will need to process those feelings because of everything that's happened. Getting him back will not circumvent that. It just has to happen. You're right that typically everyone loses is D. The silver lining is coming out of it stronger, being more self-aware, with better relationship tools. That can be a real win for you in the future!

The cycle of emotions has kicked back up as my brain went crazy again after what I learned yesterday. I made the mistake of going back and looking at our text messages from a year ago and remembered there was a time around then he was asking for “space”. Again there is a ton of proof of me trying to be supportive and tell him I love him and want him to be happy, etc.

I wouldn't be responsible if I didn't admonish you with a "don't do that, you're only hurting yourself" but really I appreciate that its part of the process.

When I discovered that my exW was cheating on me I created a virtual storage locker of everything that I'd found, and for months after the fact I would go back and review it, review the timeline, re-read the detail, etc. It would rip the bandaids off and plunge me right back into total hurt. It was the equivalent of punching myself in the face and giving myself a black eye every once in a while. Why did I feel compelled to do that? I don't know, but eventually I stopped and I felt better. Not sure you can skip that part.

Good luck to you TJT, no matter which way this goes you *will* be fine, and you *will* be stronger than you were before. That much I know. Happiness awaits and you will go back to feeling loved and valued, either with H or with someone else. That much I know.

Acc

[TJT]

@Acc - thanks for the time you took in your reply. I really do appreciate that on principle alone, but also what you've said is helpful, even if it only seems to help little by little!

Quick update:
My dad came to visit for a long weekend and then as he left today I also flew out for another business trip.

The visit with my dad was okay. He helped me with some things around the house and even bought me some Christmas decorations (I wasn't planning to do anything). That said, in some ways I thought it would be better, like I would feel more "connected" having my family around, but I found that I just didn't feel like myself in some ways. It was definitely great to have plans and have someone to go out with each night for dinner, etc. but I also didn't totally feel like he fully understood what I am going through (he and my mother divorced, and of course they both try to compare the situation) and I think, perhaps a result of that, I felt like I suppressed talking about certain things. I also didn't want to make the visit a complete whine session on my part, knowing I could probably fill the entire weekend with just that.

So ultimately, I kind of felt like I was not being authentic, and while I did enjoy the "distraction" I also felt like I was sort of faking my way through it as if I was in a more stable state than I really am. There were times I wanted to be upset that I didn't let myself, etc. I guess that's no different than the other GAL activities, but I think it's also more reinforcement that when it comes to family, I don't feel really close to mine and in some ways it exacerbated the feeling of the loss of closeness with my husband.

Also, I did find more shared calendar info during the visit. It was an entry for someone's birthday party next weekend. On a whim I texted my H's gal pal's ex-boyfriend and he confirmed that the name was a child cousin of his ex who will be turning one. So it's seeming more and more likely that they are still seeing each other AND seems like he may even be meeting her family, which is super interesting to me because I just can't imagine how those conversations are going...how they met, what happened with her and her boyfriend (they were together for 4 years so not insignificant) and oh yeah, this guy is how old?

Anyway...back to your other comments, Acc:

what it really meant was that they had an office birthday party for him and he requested chocolate cupcakes. In this case, you really don't know what that one year quote was in reference to, it literally could be anything. Please just keep that in mind as you go forward, your imagination is your own worst enemy.

Yeah, I told myself the same thing, it just seems like the more I give him the benefit of the doubt, the more I find out that proves me wrong. At this point my intuitions, even those that I remember slightly having a year ago, seem to be winning here. But I get the reasoning either way. For the record though, I don't think I care at this point if it's a sex act or cupcakes! lol I've just been trying to get any validation that they are still seeing each other just so I know the situation on his side.

Your course of action should be driven by what you want to do, not how he will react to it. Does that make sense? This has everything to do with you and how you want to live your life.

It is, however, useful to think about this. When we're married, we're married to three people really: (1) the person we thought our spouse was when we married them, (2) the person our spouse actually is now, and (3) the person we want our spouses to be in the future.

It sort of makes sense...because I know I need to be happy with myself and my decisions, for sure. But at the same time it IS confusing because of how DBing teaches us to 180...so I'm always trying to determine what his current expectation is so that I can figure out what the "right" 180 is that might have the most impact. And that's made even MORE difficult since I'm dealing with someone who I know doesn't acknowledge, let alone make transparent, his true feelings or emotions that he's dealing with, and thus why in my last post I wrote about being so conflicted about whether his actions are really HIM or a symptom of something else.

Unfortunately, many people see (1) and (3) much more clearly than (2), because (1) & (3) are all about us and not that much about them. If you are, or have been, "married to hope" it really can be valuable to step back and really think about "who this person is" based on what they've *done* in your marriage (not just the bad stuff), versus what they've said. What they've done, or "how they've shown up" in the marriage in the past is the best indication of how they will show up in the future. People *can* change, and the balance between you, or how you come together can change, but there's an enormous amount of inertia that must be overcome with a tremendous amount of motivation. Does he have that motivation to change things? Will he?

I like how you put this, because I do feel like there are things I've ALWAYS "hoped" for the marriage that never came to be, and I have a hard time remembering that. BUT I think part of the reason is because he really has shown up in phenomenal ways in the past! Before the past year or so, and even still at times during the past year, he has done great things as a husband that DID meet my "expectations", if there's a positive way to even use that word. This is what puzzles me the most. I mean when we had just moved into the house, like JUST, we were in the garage looking out at the road, and he was listening to some music and a sweet song came on that he said always reminds him of me. He was still talking about the future together as if he was planning on being around for a while (and these were things I took specific note of and felt better about).

So I'm starting to think that the "answer" is somewhere in between... I think there are parts of him he hasn't ever fully let me see, even if there are parts of him that are great - and I think there are great parts of him that he is suffocating, for whatever reasons, and either changing or simply not holding true to his real values even if they are still there.

To your point, I know he'd have to want to change or change back in either case. It's just that knowing he has been a good husband before makes me feel like it's more possible than not, and I just wish there was something that could catalyze the realization in himself! I know it's not something for ME to "fix"...I just want to so badly because I WANT to see him grow and how much of a positive thing it could be to really put in that work vs. just avoiding or replacing or whatever. I care about him as a person and of course I'm biased in this situation as to what I think would be "best" for him, and I know that if he has to "learn" whatever I think he should learn in a different (albeit a potentially much harder way) then that's just how it is. I can't control his life or how he chooses to live it and I am working on accepting that as much as it [censored] and seems so stupid.

I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him

YES! 100%. He represents stability, validation, and a resumption of your ability to have control over your future. That is really what you want, you want what he represents to you based on where you are right now. Step back and realize he is not those things.

This may have been one of the most helpful perspectives yet. Thank you!!

If he came back tomorrow, you would not feel secure in your future with him, you would continue to struggle with validation because of how you feel about yourself due to the choices he's made, and those things combined would not allow you to feel good about your control over your future. Even if he was back you would spend some time feeling like you're leaning back in a chair that's close to falling over, and that's no way to live!

Yeah this is where I have this total fantasy in my head that even if came back, he'd be capable of fully, 500% understanding AND acting all the things he'd need to do to make me feel that security. I'm thinking of it in such a detached way from myself, but like not in the good sense of detachment, I don't think. Meaning, I'm thinking of this almost like he's a student (and NOT that I am the teacher, to be clear), but I feel like okay, he doesn't understand what he's going through, or how to deal with his feelings, or how to be emotionally vulnerable, etc. But if he learned those things or was working on learning those things actively, then I would feel better and empathize and not be so hurt by what he's done, because I'd know at that point it was just him not having a healthy understanding of certain things, vs. he's just a terrible person who doesn't care about my feelings.

I do get that even if that did happen, I can't predict how I would actually feel. And that how I think I would feel would likely not be the full reality. This is one more thing that confuses me about why I'm so intent on wanting to make this work, because I definitely don't want to live in doubt either. I just can't get past what "could" be and the immense amount of loss from "giving up" on the situation. What you said earlier about my brain just wanting a shortcut is the clearest explanation for that and I will keep thinking about that. I have definitely felt like an addict in withdrawal in terms of being so frustrated with myself that I can't just let all of this go.

The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds

That has NOTHING to do with him, and everything about you wanting to avoid feeling like you failed. Once again, even if he came back tomorrow you will need to process those feelings because of everything that's happened. Getting him back will not circumvent that. It just has to happen. You're right that typically everyone loses is D. The silver lining is coming out of it stronger, being more self-aware, with better relationship tools. That can be a real win for you in the future!

I will admit I hate the thought of a mutual loss that was largely controlled by one person, not necessarily because I can't accept failure, but because this was the one thing I always expected would only occur after a pretty long and and strong fight. Not just all at once with a bunch of surprises wrapped into it. I do feel like I am being blamed for things or punished for the things that I admit I do need to improve. But it's not that I can't accept my part in it; it's that while I feel "good enough" as a person, I don't understand why I wasn't good enough for him to look past the things he may have grown tired of with me to want to work on the marriage, and as a result I don't feel like "I" was given a chance to grow into a better person and wife for him, and together with him. THAT is ultimately what I want and expect in a marriage, that even if we fail at times - which I fully expected we would - that we would work on it together. I even wrote that in my wedding day letter to him, and I did that time and again with his faults, in ways and in specific situations that I honestly think other people wouldn't have/won't.

I want to fail, but then analyze what happened, adjust, and get back up and stay the path...it's having to pick a completely different path and accept the loss of control and security and certainty that you mentioned earlier that is more my problem.

When I discovered that my exW was cheating on me I created a virtual storage locker of everything that I'd found, and for months after the fact I would go back and review it, review the timeline, re-read the detail, etc. It would rip the bandaids off and plunge me right back into total hurt. It was the equivalent of punching myself in the face and giving myself a black eye every once in a while. Why did I feel compelled to do that? I don't know, but eventually I stopped and I felt better. Not sure you can skip that part.

Thank you for sharing/admitting that. I am getting a little better about it but still slip up... I do sense that I am getting less compelled to do those things, but I know it's going to happen here and there for a while still until I'm fully weaned!

Good luck to you TJT, no matter which way this goes you *will* be fine, and you *will* be stronger than you were before. That much I know. Happiness awaits and you will go back to feeling loved and valued, either with H or with someone else. That much I know.

These words mean so much to me, even coming from a complete stranger over the internet. There is connectedness in community and having shared similar experiences, that's for sure, and this little nod makes me feel understood and like there is also hope down the "other" path, not just the one I'm trying to hang on to.

Meanwhile, this is my first business trip where me and H have been fully NC, me not wearing my rings, etc. I have been acutely aware of the fact that I no longer appear as a married woman to the general public, and I hate every minute of that, both personally, of course, but also the weird impacts it has on how we are perceived professionally. I considered bringing them as a backup emergency button type of thing, but told myself I can't use that as a security blanket because reality is reality. There are certain situations I may definitely still use them for, but this was not one of them where I felt like it was actually necessary. It would have only been for me and I didn't want to deceive myself.

This also means there are people I have not told about my sitch yet who are likely going to find out this week, either by noticing the lack of rings or perhaps by asking about H..

We will see how the week goes and I'll be pretty busy so may not have much time to post, but will make sure to come give an update! I do have some additional tactical questions I've been meaning to ask here, but just hasn't been a priority for now.