Don - I didn't know whether to be amused or offended so have decided to go with both.
I probably have enough grey back hair to qualify as a silver-back in any plains ape tribe you care to mention. This alpha-male / beta-male nonsense is just a throw-back to a time when people were not respected. I've seen it tossed around here quite a bit and generally avoid those threads.
I recall back in the 80s when a good friend of mine suggested that I force myself on my girlfriend because that way she'd know who was in charge and that she quite probably would like it. We parted ways amicably a few years later with her still being a virgin. "Just do it" - where does that stop? A kiss? Grabbing her butt? Remarking that she has a nice set of knockers and grabbing those?
I think not.
I've read a bunch of things about this whole alpha male attitude on sites that I discover are "how to get laid by hot chicks without commitments". Now, I'm all in favour of getting laid by a hot chick. But one who is consenting, informed and willing and for whom I have deep feelings and am willing to be committed to.
I'm going off now to pose majestically in silhouette against the jungle night sky.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Oh Andrew, in I don't want to speak for Don but I don't think in anyway he was saying force yourself upon her! Or to be some sort of alpha male. I do think the woman still waits for the guy to kiss her. And if you do kiss her, I don't think that would be forcing yourself upon her at all. If she pull away and says she isn't comfortable and you keep going, yeah then it would be.
If you are more comfortable, I would say "I would like to give you a kiss goodbye, may I?" that would be very appropriate. But I do agree that this really should be done. It would do you very well to know if this romantic or platonic. Then more forward from there. I have told you from my woman view, it seems like it is platonic in her eyes, which could be for a number of reasons, but you should know one way or another so you can nurture your relationship in the correct, not assumed direction, and be free to nurture other potential relationships where they see Andrew as romantic partner and can't wait to smooch you! I am not saying it's about the physical, but there is a beautiful part of an emotional connection with non-sexual physical touch I think you would really like.
Oh Andrew, in I don't want to speak for Don but I don't think in anyway he was saying force yourself upon her! Or to be some sort of alpha male. I do think the woman still waits for the guy to kiss her. And if you do kiss her, I don't think that would be forcing yourself upon her at all. If she pull away and says she isn't comfortable and you keep going, yeah then it would be.
Thank you Ginger, and let me be perfectly clear Andrew, I was in no way suggesting that you force yourself on her. I also don't subscribe to the alpha behavior stuff either. Perhaps that was not even the best example as I've heard and read WOMEM saying the exact same thing - don't ask for the kiss, just do it! Take from it what you will, but I was in no way trying to offend - nor amuse - you.
I do find it very interesting that you chose to focus only on the alpha comment while completely ignoring my larger suggestion that you follow through with exactly what you state you have been considering. Fine, ask her first or do it like Ginger suggests. That's fine - just follow through with it as continuing to not know, guess and hope is not in your best interest. There is absolutely no reason not to ask about more serious dating at this point or to ask to kiss her. The only reason not to is if you Think she does not want that, she has good you so, or you really don't want to know. I'll be honest, I fear she sees you 100% as a platonic friend with the uncle comment somewhat sealing that conclusion. However, I'm not there. I'm not seeing and expierencing her in person - you are! We can only go by what you tell us. We can only guess and mind read so the only way for anyone, including yourself, to know is to ask and talk about it. At least you will know. If she's not interested in more than friendship that will stink and will hurt, but at least you'll have an answer and the ability to date someone else. That's good too! It frees you to ask out one of these other women or someone you have not even met yet but will.
I hope that clarifies what I was getting at - as Ginger tried to do as well. Hopefully we can now focus on the bigger picture rather than attack one small element while avoiding the main focus.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Andrew, trust your instinct.. Talk to her about it. One thing i did learn in my story is SUPPORT IS GREAT but when too many people get involved, it can create chaos. Share with us your thoughts and feeling , your journey but the details of your relationship with CL are between you and her. We can not know 100% what it is she wants .. Discover HER, communicate with her, build a strong friendship or a romance but to do so, you need her input.. Best of luck ((( Andrew))) Xox
Ps.. you are a genuine man!! I wish their were more like you around here!!
Okay, that's a bit much. First, I think he's genuine because he's Canadian, not because he's innately genuine. Second, I think Canadians are just squatters on U.S. territory. I mean really, they're kinda-sorta illegal aliens that have setup a rogue makeshift government. The reason we've allowed them to stay is because it's just too d@mn cold up there.
Then, there's the real issue that's been looming and everyone seems to be ignoring it and hoping it'll go away: what the h3ll is the Turkish taco woman's first name? Have you noticed that Andrew hasn't provided any hints?
He's using the other women as a distraction. He's crafty, that's for sure.
I think Canadians are just squatters on U.S. territory.
Er - well - you personally might argue that you live on territory bought from the Spanish but that was done before a certain episode of tea abuse. I bet you can't even manage the first 2 verses of God Save the Queen. Although I do just mumble through much of it myself. And of course despite the number of different ways that it's served, I despair of finding a decent cup of tea anywhere near to or south of the Mason-Dixon.
Originally Posted by doodler
Then, there's the real issue that's been looming and everyone seems to be ignoring it and hoping it'll go away: what the h3ll is the Turkish taco woman's first name? Have you noticed that Andrew hasn't provided any hints?
Frustrating isn't it.
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So - there is perhaps an expectation of a date report.
It went well. No smooch. The target shifted at the last moment and she looked like that was very on purpose. I thought about making a second attempt but didn't. We visited for a bit over 2 hours which is a slight problem but at the plant I'm at today I only had to explain to the person at the main desk who was all in favour of my reason for a long lunch. We left only when she realized that she had to get one of her kids to an appointment otherwise I might have had a very awkward afternoon return. I had my phone in my pocket so had no idea what the time was but was getting antsy towards the end. Fortunately I didn't miss anything at the office of importance and can easily make up the time - even the time to write this post.
I do think we are generally quite compatible. Her own legal issues appear to be sorting themselves out and she is a lot calmer about it all now. We did talk a bit about ex-partners and the process of getting rid of them but that was a minor part of the conversation (thank heavens). She was very interested when I talked about how my settlement was negotiated and structured. Her's will be very different.
I like the fact that she is un-apologetically herself. I think that there are a number of things about me that she feels could do with "improving" but beyond telling me that for example she thinks that my preference to have a clean counter at the end of the day is silly to her and that I'm perhaps turning S24 into a giant man-baby, she seems to not care. Her disapproval doesn't really matter a lot to me either. It makes for entertaining banter. She does actually listen when I disagree with her even if she doesn't agree with what I say. And a number of the things she brings up she's absolutely right about - but they don't matter enough to me for me to change.
On key thing popped out as I was walking her to her car that supports my prior thinking about what her understanding of our situation is. She mentioned that she had been thinking of asking me out to the Remembrance Day ceremony at her church but that her son said that I specifically was not allowed to go. She remarked that she told him that he was going to have to deal with that eventually.
This removes a fair bit of tar from the "OM" brush I worry about. If she's open to involving me in her friends, acquaintances and faith community etc and if her son is annoyed that I exist it means that she has more solid plans than just a quaint uncle. And yes - I consider her son being annoyed as a positive - one that I need to accept and that she will need to navigate. Over time. This all will take time. It will likely be quite a while before I even meet the guy - as it should be.
Not sure when I'll see her next. I'll probably suggest after work on Friday again. I believe she's planning on spending much of December in Florida - so keep an eye out for her please Doodler and say "hi". She's got a three legged dog and her name is nothing at all like the Taco lady's. You should be able to spot her fairly easily.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I bet you can't even manage the first 2 verses of God Save the Queen.
I can't even manage the first two words. But, I do have a British neighbor and I went to his Guy Fawkes party a couple weekends ago. Does that count?
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Frustrating isn't it.
Yep, frustrating. I feel like I'm married again.
Originally Posted by AndrewP
I believe she's planning on spending much of December in Florida - so keep an eye out for her please Doodler and say "hi". She's got a three legged dog and her name is nothing at all like the Taco lady's.
Awww sh*t! Do I have to guess her name too? I'm grasping at straws; I need a hint.
Awww sh*t! Do I have to guess her name too? I'm grasping at straws; I need a hint.
How about this - the dog's name is Fezzik and he's a "he" not a she.
I never promised useful hints. In fact I've never promised hints of any sort. Your move.
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A couple of more things that I want to think about.
I'm pretty sure that over-all my status with CL hasn't changed and that I'm still more or less "on the shelf". Freshly dusted but on the shelf.
In some ways it's very like my situation 2 years ago but without the expectations or angst. That was when I was hoping that my ex's affair was over and that she'd want to come home. She did do an "anchor check" on me which reassured her that I was still right where she left me and then went back chasing after OM. Finally reconnecting with him just after January which is when I threw in the towel.
As an aside my thoughts about my ex at the time (and now) were "who'd want her". Cruel perhaps but an aging overweight woman with some health problems, a tendency to complain a lot, be controlling, a nasty temper and no interest in sex is probably not most people's first pick. Her being stuck in her flat above the liquor store both surprises and doesn't presuming that she's still there. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
CL was very surprised that I have pretty much zero insight into my ex's life and status. She gets an ear-full from her kids it seems and since her STBX is behaving like a jerk towards them, she's pretty much OK with that. My kids have strong boundaries and know that hearing about their mother is painful to me so they block all that out.
CL certainly has her share of flaws but even beyond her good looks is quite the catch. I do believe that having me on her "shelf" that she's not looking around. I do find it frustrating as everyone knows. I do see it ending as well but not when. The how would be an increase in dating and spending time together or with a friendly parting of ways continuing to stay in touch from time to time. Will someone else cross her path who would be a better match? I have no clue - I'm sure that such a person exists. And that doesn't concern me at all. I do suspect that she does worry that I have other options. In my posting on social media I joke about my lack of a partner and how I haven't embarked on online dating - perhaps that helped push her to pull out the dusting rag. I'm not changing my attitude though. I have no duty or commitment towards her or visa versa. That would only happen if she takes the steps towards being more serious which she's not ready for.
I do think that the lack of muchas smoochas and "getting serious" is very much an ethical thing for her because she is still legally married. While it is an issue - otherwise why would I talk about it all the time here - it's not one that realistically is worth bringing up with her at this point I believe. She knows I am interested. She knows that I respect her, her beliefs, and her body and personal space.
I do think that part of it, especially from things she's mentioned from her upbringing, is that she doesn't want to be perceived as "wanton" in any way. There was a big focus when she was young on "proper" behaviour and dress and she jokes that she was a rebel because she died her hair.
She also mentioned that her STBX was "very" focused on appearances and people's perceptions. We were talking about a recent story where a bride blew up her wedding dress with high explosives (it was in Texas) and she looked horrified as she loved her dress which she still has. But she also mentioned that her H had insisted on knowing in advance what it looked like and was very upset that it wasn't "appropriate". Not a good start to a marriage. I see it affecting her in lots of ways, always making things tidy around her etc. She has told me that she and the kids were constantly judged and chastised for being less than perfect. She's rebelling against that now. I do sometimes worry that she'll take it a bit too far. The kids and her commitment to them, despite her griping about it, does serve to anchor her somewhat. They are absolutely her top priority.
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One other thing. When I got home yesterday, slightly later than usual having put in some extra hours at the plant, S24 and I exchanged the "how was your day". I mentioned that I had had a nice lunch date with CL and he acted very startled and slightly upset. He then left the kitchen for a couple of minutes and then came back and resumed making his dinner a bit more subdued.
I do worry that something's "up". It is certainly the time of year for lost lambs to go "baaa" or whatever gastric sounds they make. S24 knows that CL is sort of an on/off/wtf situation for me. I'm pretty sure that I would politely close the door to my ex if she would knock on it. I have had a lot of weak moments lately though. A number of friends have smacked me down about even thinking about it.
With that said, today I need to send off her monthly payment. The 13th. 13 is a significant number in my former marriage. It came in to play in a "lot" of ways - seemingly popping up all over. While "I" don't believe in such nonsense my gut has other opinions. I had been tempted to suggest to my ex that given the current postal strike that if she had anything she wanted me to take down to D26 at the end of the month to just pass it over. I'm writing this here to make sure that I don't open that window of the lighthouse. Unkind of me perhaps. This is absolutely the sort of thing I would do for a neighbour but it is best to continue to act as if she doesn't exist.
Breakfast potato pancakes finished. Time to top up my tea pot and head upstairs to the home office. There's a pretty layer of snow over everything right now.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I never promised useful hints. In fact I've never promised hints of any sort. Your move.
Hot d@mn! That was a preemptive strike. Luckily, I'd already considered some three legged dog names: Tripod, Stump, Trey, and Skippie. All were wrong, but my next guess was going to be Fezzik.
And, for the Turkish taco woman: Mary, Diana, Sarah, and Zoe.
