Is this the end...

[equalzr]

Thanks for the response, Burned.

Any one else have any advice on how to handle the no contact situation? Just continue to give it more time, even if it means up to and after a D? Yes, I know that GAL is for me and not for her, but how else can she see that I am capable of change as opposed to telling her about it?

Also, I am still stuck on the text I received yesterday where my W offers to talk to me and listen to what I have to say. This is the first time since she moved out that she has even remotely mentioning talk to me and listening to me. It was simply a fluke that I was home when she came to pick up the dog a few weeks again and I allowed her to cry on my shoulder. All other times when picking up or dropping off the dog, I have not been home. Is this simply a form of temperature check or is that an opportunity that I should not let pass?

GAL and changes are for you. Who knows if she'll ever notice or even care if she does. Be genuine about making Hero 2.0 a better person and 180/improve on the areas you know you should improve in. Its a process and doesnt happen over night.

[Hero18]

So, I took some time yesterday to reread the DB and DR books. Based on my reading, I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H. This would be a 180 from past behavior as the medium and the messaging is different. I can see how it can/will be considered as pursuit, but at this point what else can I lose. We are getting close to the point where we will start discussing a settlement, if I continue my current course of radio silence I will probably end up divorced anyway and wondering why I did not at least try one last time. I am not going to talk about getting back together nor will I be telling her how much I love her. My intent it to explain what I have learned over the past few months and how I see now how I contributed to a break down in the M. I also want to apologize for making her life difficult with my passive aggressive behaviors and indecision. I did a really poor job of saying I am sorry in the past. I would also like to ask that she simply considers what I wrote, maybe even put the D on temporary hold, take a chance and go for a walk with me to see if she wants to get to know who I am now. I will also reiterate that I will not stand in the way of her happiness even if that means me being completely out of the picture.

I am sorry if I am being so bull headed, but this is now day 3 of feeling like this is something I have to do and re-reading all of Sandi's threads (even though I think I am dealing with a WAW/MLC not a WW) and MWD's books again have not convinced me to stop.

I once again turn to the board to help point out what if any holes there are in my plan.

[burned]

It's your call, man. Just be aware that the DR book was written many years ago, while this board is a living, breathing organism that serves to develop MWD's philosophy and keep it up to date. Something like that.

Also keep in mind that most of the chapters in DR are for couples that haven't had a BD. So a lot of it doesn't apply to us here. Sure, there's a lot to learn about cheeseless tunnels, 180s, goals, etc. But the concepts people use here about pursuit/pressure and so forth, those are more important now. Focus on the chapters about LRT and infidelity.

You can do it if you want but keep your expectations at zero and be very cautious not to write/say/do anything that could be interpreted as "I disagree with you and want you to reconsider and here's why."

One of Sandi's rules is to not insist on showing her the changes you've made. That sends the message, "Hey, look what I did to try to prove that your feelings are wrong and win you back."

Just...tread carefully. I did a lot of that kind of thing before discovering DB, and I pretty much ruined my sitch.

[Rose888]

I understand the need to write a letter. I wrote one and gave it to my husband.

It did not make things better, but I am still glad I sent it.

However, if you send it, do not, repeat Do Not, ask anything of her. Not that she thinks about what you wrote, and definitely not that she puts the D on hold and goes on a walk with you. That is 100 percent pursuit.

[Ready2Change]

...I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H......

Write it all out. Refine it over a course of a week. Post it here for input. Refine it more.


I gave a few "Feeling" notes to W during my sitch. I mixed many different expert guides to write them. We still got divorced.


I still believe SHE needs to FEEL the lose of YOU is the only way to turn her around. This is in general and not to you specifically. That is why pursuit never works.

[Hero18]

Thank you all for the advice, I did end up writing a letter and a few hours later I burned it. For at least an hour I though back to how I had pursued my W and what that had gotten me. We are S, but at least it is stable. There is no animosity yet and she has not completely shut me out of her life so at this time I will not jeopardize that. Perhaps as we proceed through the phases of the D, my mind will change. May if there were to be a letter in the future it would be to simply detail the end of the relationship as I cannot accept being friends once we are divorced . Maybe this would be the first time she realizes what she has lost...or maybe not.

You know I have had so many better days recently, but the last two weekends have just been brutal for what ever reason. I am really not looking forward to my Wedding Anniversary a week from tomorrow...

[sandi2]

Hi Hero, I'm sorry to read about another H who is suffering from the actions of a WW. If you've read my thread "Help for the LBH who has WW", you'll see that the W has formed a foundation of resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. At the point when she drops the bomb, her selfishness and sense of entitlement is her driving force that leads her to break up the MR. When the H experiences the bomb, he is in shock. He tries to figure out what happened. Then he tries to jump into Super Husband mode and do things that he thinks will turn her back into the MR. However, these two people are on an entirely different time frame from one another. He wants to correct everything he might have done wrong, but she's through with the MR.

I have been reading old texts and emails to help me figure out what I did wrong and where I can do a 180 and something finally clicked.

At this point in time, I don't think there is any 180 action that will "nice" her back into the M. You are torturing yourself by going over these old text/emails. I think you are probably experiencing desperation to fix what's broken, but it doesn't work that way. A wayward W is a different breed from what you might read in some marriage help books. She's lost all respect for her H, and that killed her attraction for him. Do you understand what I'm saying? Until she respects you as a man.....she will not feel desire for you. She doesn't care how much you want to work on the MR and show her how you can change. She is past that point. All those "signs" you listed, and then excused away......is very telling about your MR.

I realize this hurts you to read, and I'm sorry. I'm not saying that all hope is gone forever. I'm just telling you that the feelings you are having about "showing" her your 180's, is not what will wake her up. It's your way of trying to repair or change the H in the past...…..but, she's done with the past, so it won't work. You can't go backwards to fix things. Maybe you need to stop trying to be the H you wished you'd been, and become the man you need to be. Stop trying to convince her or persuade her about anything. Leave her alone, and let her go.

The WW respects one thing, and one thing only...…….strength. Therefore, she has to see everything you do as coming from a place of inner strength. Now, before your mind starts jumping into some "nice guy" scenario where you play the martyr while she slaughters you and stripes you of every fiber of self-respect...….let me explain that she does not see that as being strong. She does not respect a man who lets a woman walk all over him...….even if he loves her. She respects the man who stands up to her and puts her in her place (so to speak) when she's out of line. He stands up for himself, instead of cow down and apologize.....hoping that will settle her down. He's not afraid of her anger. The WW has developed a mindset that is cold and hard. She's not the girl you M. So, forget trying to impress her or persuade her with some soft, goody-goody 180 behavior.

You can be the nice guy and try to win her back with cotton candy techniques (like an apology letter), but it will only fill her with disgust. She may, or may not, be obvious about it. But, she will take advantage of you. The WW is going for whatever benefits her most. Why am I telling you all this stuff you don't want to hear? B/c I am being "real" with you, and telling you to stop searching text/emails and stop trying to find your old W in this wayward woman that's come out of the MR. The only hope of reaching her is for you to change your nice guy behavior and learn how to stand up for yourself. WW's need tough love. I'm not endorsing any type of abusive behavior. If you aren't familiar with "tough love", I recommend you google it.

You may not be able to stop the D proceedings. That doesn't mean the two of you can never get back together in the future......if that's what you want. Currently, the boat is sinking and you've got to save yourself. So, get a plan of action in how you'll survive this crisis. I suggest you get your eyes off the M and off the WW, and save yourself. You can't save anything else until you save yourself. I suggest you not use "her" lawyer. Her lawyer is looking out for her best interest......not yours. Sorry to say, but you cannot trust your W at this time. Do whatever you have to do to protect your finances, property, retirement plan, etc. If you have children, be sure you get them, at least, 50 percent of the time. Be fair, but that's all. Giving her more will not make her feelings change toward you.

Now is the time for you to evaluate your standards and principles by which you live. Don't compromise your integrity or your moral/spiritual beliefs, trying to get back a woman who doesn't want you. Be a man of honor and courage, and do what you believe is right. These are the things to focus on during a crisis.

Based on my reading, I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H.

Please don't. This is your NGS telling you to submit to her, regardless if you're really guilty or not. I'll bet that in the past, you would apologize whenever she acted cold, angry, moody, and you didn't even know what you were apologizing about. It was your go-to plan for fixing whatever was wrong with her.....and you figured it must be something you did, so you'd say, "I'm sorry". This is just your old way of trying to fix things, and she will not respect it.

I can see how it can/will be considered as pursuit, but at this point what else can I lose. We are getting close to the point where we will start discussing a settlement, if I continue my current course of radio silence I will probably end up divorced anyway and wondering why I did not at least try one last time.

You are saying, "Why didn't I try what doesn't work, one last time". It doesn't work!!

At this point, what can you lose? Right...….so why don't you do something different? Why don't you follow what we are telling you? If your way worked, don't you think we would be shouting it from the roof tops? Do you have any idea how many LBH's have tried what you are wanting to do? I've read hundreds of stories like this...…...and not ONE worked successfully by sending an apology letter.

My intent it to explain what I have learned over the past few months and how I see now how I contributed to a break down in the M. I also want to apologize for making her life difficult with my passive aggressive behaviors and indecision. I did a really poor job of saying I am sorry in the past.

Hero, listen to me. She doesn't care! It's too late for all that stuff. She doesn't care what you've learned or how you think you've changed......and she won't appreciate how sorry you feel for past offenses. Just don't do it.

I am sorry if I am being so bull headed, but this is now day 3 of feeling like this is something I have to do and re-reading all of Sandi's threads (even though I think I am dealing with a WAW/MLC not a WW) and MWD's books again have not convinced me to stop.

Well, that's a common reaction, too. Just for the record, MWD does not separate WW and WAW. She lumps them together, which is okay, except the WW usually requires a little tougher love. Do you know why it's tough? B/c it's tough for you. Just like with no contact. It's tough, isn't it? Have you conquered it yet? No, b/c it's tough and you don't like doing it. If you can't manage to stop contacting her, how do you think you will handle a divorce? Don't you think she should experience just a little taste of how life will be without you?

I wouldn't say you are bull-headed. You are in a state of panic. I'm not pro-divorce, but I have not seen anyone die from it yet. Life goes on. In some cases, it gets much better. Stop clinging to someone who doesn't love you and treat you well. Hold your head up and maintain your dignity.

If you have to persuade someone to love you......what does that say about your self worth? Become the man who has attractive attributes (self-confidence, assertiveness, decisiveness, male dominance, leadership, pride, high standards, etc.) and it will draw those who are of quality, and you won't have to persuade someone to love you.

[Hero18]

Thank you all who took the time to read and respond!

Thought I would give you an update on things.

Last weekend while I was wrestling with things, I did something that I was not supposed to do and that was reach out to my MIL. I have known here for 21 years and she has been like a second mother to me. I explained to her that without betraying her D's confidence, I wanted to know if I she thought it was worth it to write a letter or if that would make things worse. Naturally, she wrote back that I put her in an uncomfortable position, but told me that she (my MIL) still loves me. I wrote back that was OK, and I was sorry for putting her in that position and to forget what I asked. I did ask her to please tell my W that whether it is 6 weeks from now or 6 years to now to pick up the phone and call me if she ever felt like wanting to reconnect.

As you know from above, I did give any letter to my W. Instead, I met with my Atty and responded to my W's filing. I then went on a business trip with a large contingent from the office and it was a BLAST! I finally shed some of my NG qualities and took the GAL to heart. I stayed out late drinking, playing cards and laughing my @ss off every night. It was the first time in years that I did not feel guilty for not quitting early to go to my room and make a phone call home. I used to hate business travel, but I found it to be bummer that we had to go home. I know it is only one event, but it made me believe that GAL is possible even if it is exhausting after 4 straight days of partying.


THEN, I got the following text from my W yesterday.

"I think you and I need to talk. Not to talk about the settlement but just to clear the air between us. I have asked my atty to get the court date pushed out until 2019. I felt like maybe we both need some time and a chance to communicate our feelings to each other. I know that you emailed my mom this weekend, which is why I am reaching out to you. I feel like we should probably talk through things with the help of a counselor, but if we need to meet to figure out how to arrange that, I am willing to. I don't know what your schedule looks like over the next week or so, but let me know. If you have no interest in talking to me, please let me know that if that's the case."

I would like to get the boards input here on how to best respond. Firstly, I know not to get excited and not to even think about any expectations. I do not think that this is just a temp check, but the skeptical part of me thinks that this is just a way for her to say later, look we did the counseling thing and it did not work so I was right to leave you. However, there is another part of me that is curious to see how she acts (it must mean something if she is willing to delay the D, right?) and would like to hear what she has to say. I have read other threads where the advice is to respond with an upbeat tone, but not sound too eager. Is that also good advice here as well?

Thank you in advance.

[burned]

I'm new here but that sounds like much more than a temp check, you lucky duck.

[Wanted1]

Hero,

I'm following your thread to see what type of responses you get and to read your update after you talk to your W to see how that goes.

Over the last couple days, I've seriously contemplated reaching out to my MIL. My W hasn't told her parents anything about what's going on. Back when the first A took place 5 years ago, I made my W text her mom and tell her what she'd done to me. Probably not the right thing to do, but the point is, my MIL knows her D betrayed me back then.

I'm pretty confident that my W hasn't reached out to her mom because she's afraid her M will tell her she needs to work on the M. From what I can see, she's only reaching out to her sister through this whole mess. Her brother knows about the situation and he's very pro-marriage. He went through a similar same scenario of infidelity earlier this year and they R and have a better M because of it. So, I've been questioning why my W wouldn't be leaning on him for advice or at least talking to him about everything? The answer I've come up with is because he will tell her what she doesn't want to hear. Same thing applies to her mom. W's mom and her are very close, so I'm 99% certain that's the reason she isn't communicating with her about our situation.

I'm sure the advice around here will be to not reach out, but it looks as though you might have received some positive reaction for doing so by the sounds of it.