Am I coming or going?

[JujuB]

I think what happened is that you guys moved too fast. At 2 weeks, this type of drama and feelings amd intimacy doesnt make sense.

I think at 2 weeks it should still be coffee and casual miniature golf dates.

I know he is the one that pushed for this, but maybe a lesson? If this happens again, keep yourself detached and keep it light and casual. So that you guys have time to get to know each other and where each of you are at first before investing emotions and feelings.

( i know this doesnt always work...look at my sitch. I was cautious and slow. But still ignored some red flags. But the slowness does keep it less personal/emotional i think)

[DonH]

From what I can tell, including "inside information" from talking with G, he indeed got in too fast and panicked. I think that was exacerbated by G's fear of the same thing happening again with a guy and poof the combo blew up. I even think it's possible both think the other is pulling away when neither really was. Yes it was very bad timing in his part, fueled I swear by a bio chemical reaction within him he has no control over and fueled by PTSD of sorts from Gingers past. The sad part is this could have been and still could be a great R down the road. They both just rushed YET AGAIN. Sure, this time early intercourse was not part of it but sex and everything else was. So really not much was different. It was a very fast two weeks with at least 6 or 7 dates within that two weeks. I'm sorry but I just don't see that as healthy. Is that just me? Perhaps in part yes but not in full. I'd have to add them up, okay I will... Lol. By my quick count I've seen wild girl 7 times in 10 weeks and she (and I guess I) are still being cautious and slow. Yes sex is involved but see the difference - 7 in 10 weeks versus 7 in 2? An hour of distance I'm sure helps that and full disclosure some "dates" have lasted two days due to the distance. So okay make it 10 in 10 weeks versus what would be 35 in 10 weeks at your pace. It's no wonder both pulled back and he's back online. There is and was no foundation there to rely on.

The difference this time is G wanted to go slow but allowed him to pull her right back to her comfort zone. She thought it was okay and safe because HE wanted it. Clearly not!!!!! Especially coming from online - the land of misfit toys - you have to be cautious with people. Going to a guys house on the first date is not cautious. It's almost as the writing was on the wall from date one. Easier to see in hindsight.

So now the good news. I don't think all is lost here. I think you guys need to talk. You can use this as a growing expierence and have it help form a bond for you. Unless you think he is too broken and not in a good place. See I think he is perfect to DATE as in go out to mini golf as juju says once or twice a week learn who he TRULY is. You can't do that by playing instant R cooking meals and hopping into bed naked. Again I'm clearly not someone to give R advice but I'm pretty good at dating - or at least used to be. Dinner, ball games, drinks, fairs, bond fires, mini golf, etc. and even if HE wants to see you 4 nights out of 5 don't. This junk of taking opportunities when they come is just that - junk when the "opportunities" come 80% of the time. It's more rationalization to excuse the behavior and do what we want rather than what is best. All that said, I don't think this is lost yet / just a bad miss-start. He still seems like a good guy. It's just now both of you who need to tripple it - if you know what i mean. I'd give it a shot at least meeting and talking - with your clothes on. . I really think he reacted stupidly and chemically and you over-reacted a bit. Chalk it up, learn from it and for Christ sake SLOW DOWN.

[AndrewP]

I love mini-golf!

Hope you are doing better G. Wish I could mail you some cookies.

Stay safe and dry please.

[Zues126]

G, I hope you're surviving the day. Hang in.

What I really hate is if my ability to trust anything is gone. If I will be too scared to do this again.

I want to take a moment to think about how banks decide to lend money to people. Every day people apply by the millions for credit, be it a credit card, auto loan, home loan, or something else along those lines. How does the bank decide whether to trust someone or not?

Well, certainly not by how they feel around the applicant. I used to work in subprime auto finance, dealing with people who had not just bad credit but in many cases extremely bad. Multiple repossessions, bankruptcies, etc. Now I have a big heart. I want to help people. I want to believe the best in them. But there are a lot of bad people that play on those feelings and try to fish for a white knight who wants to help and take them for everything. Sometimes it's deliberate. Other times they believe their own stories. But they all are really good at being in need of a rescuer and being a victim. The other part of that dynamic is the rescuer who needs to play the role of being important, needed, and good. Victims make the rescuer feel good. And they are all humans who are good people in their own ways. Maybe they tell funny jokes. Maybe they dress sharp. Maybe they are charismatic.

But the banks don't care about any of this because they've seen it all. They aren't in this because they want to feel important, or because they are needy. The banks are in it to make money. Show business not show friends.

Thus credit reports are used. The record of who this person has paid, who they haven't paid, if they paid on time, etc. When a person starts out they have NO CREDIT. They start by borrowing a tiny amount from easy to qualify for accounts, such as high rate or secured credit cards. Then BASED ON THEIR PERFORMANCE they can develop a good credit score. Then maybe they get another card with a bigger limit and a lower APR. Maybe a car loan one day. Then when they apply for a home loan the mortgage company says "Hmm, 753 FICO, 6 years on the bureau, 4 trade lines with a max limit of $22,000, paid perfect over 3 years, credit looks good". Of course credit is just one of the requirements indicating 'willingness' to repay. The applicant also has to have the 'ability' to repay, thus income verification, debt to income ratios, and job stability can play a role.

Soooo, when it comes to how to trust people, I believe you have to do things the same way. When you first meet someone, you don't know anything about them. I'm not saying you should distrust them, I'm just saying you shouldn't trust them enough to lend them money for a house or a car.

Each interaction with them you learn a little bit more. You get better insight into their values, their life priorities, how they handle emotional adversity, loss, disappointment, conflict. You learn how they communicate. You learn all kinds of things about them. But only little by little. The first interaction is like them making ONE good payment on their credit card. That's great! That's the best they can do so far! Perfect 100% batting average! But it's only one payment, so they are only 1/1. Way too soon to give them credit for a house or even a car.

Little by little you can increase their credit limit with you, as long as they keep performing well. In six months or a year you'll have much more information. At some point you can say, 'wow, this person is really someone that I can trust to keep their sanity even through life's most difficult times such as mid life crisis, deaths in the family, financial difficulties, temptation, I think I can put my life in their hands'.

When you're first starting out though you don't have any reason to trust them. It would be great if they were from a circle you knew, like a church, family friend, friend of a good friend that has known them for years. That would allow you to give them credit based on their performance for others you knew prior to you meeting. But unfortunately in this day and age we have decided we don't need this type of community and feel we can do it all ourselves by outsourcing it to the internet. Great. We can certainly do that. But you have to be more on guard.

Now, I'm going to talk about me for a minute. I DIDN'T do this with either serious relationship I was in (my first gf and my XW). I met them, became infatuated, and quickly (within weeks or a month or two) gave them credit for being perfect. I felt it made me a good guy to be trusting and open. I thought if I gave them trust they would want to live up to it because people are good and love conquers all.

I was really disappointed.

Turns out my first gf had serious problems, had a hidden life that she kept from me and was a serial liar. She cheated on me, broke up with me, then much later wanted to get back together so tried to sabotage my marriage with XW by falsifying evidence that XW was cheating, then when that failed went totally crazy to the point I had to warn my kid's teachers and school bus drivers about her to protect them ("she is NOT a relative" with a picture...). Finally she killed herself. And through my tears I have to admit there was a lot of relief that me and my family were safe from her.

You know or can look up the story of my XW.

Point is, trusting so quickly didn't work out well for me. Giving too much too soon was a bad choice. It came from neediness on my part, my need for them to be the person I longed for them to be. It came from my distaste for dating and screening people and breaking up and all of that stuff. I just want to meet one person that just wants to meet me and keep it simple. But that was my choice too. And if I make the choice to extend credit to someone that hasn't earned it, I feel very responsible for whatever happens.

As you know I'm not sure I'll be dating again. It's not that I don't think there would be any women that might be trustworthy to my standards, but I don't think many would be. That is because I believe our cultural norms subscribe to beliefs that lead to destructive behavior, so most people have been indoctrinated with values that I would not put my trust in. So I'd end up having to screen too many people looking for someone that was technically insane (not conforming to the standards of our society). And that could lead to it's own problems. Maybe another culture that had different values could be possible. But then there are cultural issues, potential language barriers, lack of common experiences, geographical challenges. All of this sounds too exhausting to me for something that doesn't look likely to work out, a ton of effort and emotional energy to go down a road that will probably end in devastation and betrayal.

I don't think I'm jaded, just practical and realistic. To continue the analogy, I'm like a life insurance carrier that decided no longer to insure rock climbers or motorcyclists because the payouts exceeded the premiums. Just business.

Not much of a pep talk as always, but I wanted to admit that I've made this mistake in the past. It's understandable. I really just wanted to share my views on how trust should be earned and given. The banks do a good job making money despite the number of people that don't repay because they protect themselves and take calculated chances. But when you move quickly you give credit much too soon and expose yourself and your heart and possibly your child to someone that, in today's society, has a greater chance than ever than being crazy or addicted somehow, and with less foundation.

You don't have to play it this way, but kick it around a bit and maybe next time you meet someone and find yourself wanting to extend credit to them somehow, maybe you'll remember ol' Zues and ask yourself what credit score they've established with you and if they're qualified.

[Ginger1]

Wow, I have been reading everything, taking it in, plus spending some quality time with my girl.

Everyone of you make unique and good points, and I also really appreciate the hugs. It's been rough. This whole band dude thing plus everything else going on could make someone lose their sh!t.

Don gave me a new perspective. Maybe it's not over? I truly hated the way it ended. I hated how we both dealt with it. I had a strong reaction given my very vulnerable circumstance and my past trauma. He used just about the worst timing to blurt out a feeling he had gotten in that moment. After spending a day with my D and she went to bed, I reached out to him. I told him I hated the way it ended and that it even ended. He responded immediately. He said "me too". I apologized for overreacting, but the timing really threw me off. He said it was totally understandable. He asked me if D10 game home, what we did that day, ect. I told him "I'll never be your exW, I will never be that GF who got away, I will always be me but I do miss you. You don't have to say anything, I just had to say that" (go ahead, 2x4 me). He replied with "I miss you too". We said goodnight to eachtoher and that was it.

I don't know what this means, where we stand or how I even really need to deal with this. He would have to make the next move. But really, I can't say I could get past what he said and how he said it. I am afraid it will always stick in my head and I would wait for it to come again. I can't begin to explain how painful it all was. The ball is in his court and I will maybe figure where to go from here, if there really even is anywhere to go.

Zues, you analogies are just about the most realtable analogies ever. You should have been a teacher. I am going to keep practicing going at this just as you prescribed. Sometimes credit looks good on paper, but there are so many other factors and before you take that risk on a loan, you better truly assess that risk.

IN other news I sat down D10 and talked to her about possibly moving out of town and she freaked out. Completely freaked. I calmed her down when we looked at some of the houses and promised her a dog. She started feelings better about it, then she swings to "I refuse to move, I am not leaving my school!!!!" We went to target, spent a butt load of money on school supplies and clothes. I found myself not really saying no to anything because I felt so bad. I also bought myself a thing or two, because when I am down and out, unfortunately shopping makes me feel better.

This is so hard. So hard to handle without support of another partner. What I am going though right now with everything is just awful. I am done with all these insane situations. I just want some godam stability. It's all I have been striving for all these years.

I've really appreciated all your support. I don't want to struggle anymore. I just want some peace and stability.

[Dawn70]

First and foremost, (((((((((((((((((((((((((G)))))))))))))))))))))))))))).

Now that is out of the way, I'm so sorry for all of the crap that has been flung at you. Life just royally [censored] sometimes and it seems like you continue to get the short end of the stick. I am not going to go back and rehash things that have already been said, since I'm late to the game but would like to offer a few comments based on your most recent post.

I have read all the posts you made and those who responded to you and I agree with Don. I'm glad you reached out to him and I think your next step is to actually have a face to face conversation. You say that you don't know if you can ever get past what he said and I get that, but at the same time, if you want to have an honest, open chat and try to move forward, you have to figure out how to NOT go into it with that thought in your head. I could well be wrong and maybe I'm mind reading here, but if you say that, it is almost like you are dooming the chances of recovering what could be a nice relationship from the get go. It's kind of like saying well I'm going to diet, but I refuse to lose weight. You know what I mean? Maybe you should spend some time to really think about if you even want to try to patch things up and if you do, then reach out, talk, try to put what he said aside. I know, it is easy for me to say that because I'm not in the moment. I'm so sorry that it worked out the way it did, but I do believe, IF you really want to fix it, it can be fixed. He seems reasonable, based on your descriptions.

Now, the house thing is just screwed up all the way around and I feel so bad for you. BUT, while I applaud you for sitting D10 down and talking to her about it, G, YOU are the parent. I totally understand and respect that you are taking her feelings into account, but you are an adult and she is a child and you know that sometimes you have to do things that you don't necessarily want to do. I realize that you do not want to move her any more than she wants to be moved. She doesn't get this now, but someday she will. When she's older she will understand that adults sometimes have to make tough decisions that do not have the best foreseeable outcome, but you are doing what you have to do to provide the best life for her. Of course moving schools would be hard for both of you, but better to do it now while she's still young than to have to do it in a few years when she's earning credits for graduation and looking at her future and selection of classes is more of an issue, if that makes any sense at all.

My heart really goes out to you, G, for all of the negativity that has surrounded you lately. I'm keeping you in positive thoughts and prayers and praying for a ray of sunshine to pop through that big old cloud covering you SOON.

[Ginger1]

Thank you dawn. I am so stressed out right now and feel kind of hopeless. Nothing is quite going right, and I don't even know where to begin. Obviously my priority is my housing situation. I did explain to D10 that as her Mother, I have to make the decision that is necessary and the best for both of us, even if it doesn't feel like it or she is not happy with it. I explained every decision I make has her best interest in mind. She gets it, but I know it's hard for her.

As for Band dude. I am glad I reached out. However, I am pretty sure he is online looking for the next one. I don't know if he will want to see me or talk it out. But if he wants to, he has to come to me. I really wish he would have shut his mouth in that moment. I wish I could turn back time on everything. If he would really get his head straight, I believe we could have something great. But his head is not straight right now. Who knows what the future brings, but I guess if it's meant to be, it will happen. Old Ginger would find a way to make it happen or force it to happen. But I don't want to.

I have IC tonight. I need it. Badly. I keep feeling like I circling back around to square one.

[TBSakaJ9]

Hey g......IMO band dude knows if he is over his x or not and if he was self aware he would have not got in over his head and did what he did. That’s how people get hurt.....I spent 6 hours chatting with a lady yesterday. She has been divorced for 7 years and when I told her when mine was final her initial response was wow. She wants a R and is not in it for the dating......before I continue to engage with her I have to assess myself and determine if that is what I want and if I don’t I need to stop and not go any further.

My 10 cents

[Ginger1]

I miss him. I hate this. I miss him, I know he is online chatting up other women, and I haven't heard from him, and I probably won't. Part of my hopes he realizes what a mistake he made, but I know he won't. He is not too self aware. He is trying to replace his marriage and his last R.

I don't know how in a blink of an eye it went from everything being great to going to immediate sh!t. It really stinks.

And it isn't even the worst of my problems.

But I sure do miss him and there is nothing I can do about it.

[kml]

This is why - not to sound like a broken record - you need to take time to get to know a guy before letting your emotions get involved.