One word of caution I got early in my sitch was not to analyze everything she says and does. I was like you. "That was a positive action or comment. That was negative." Just let htings be what they are without much thought and without having to analyze everything.
Consistent behavior over a long period of time. That is what you are looking for. Everything else is just a point in time. Her actions and words are often times dictated by her mood at that moment.
Oh, definitely. Just like with the list, I'm just looking at it as a sign of hope, not a sign that things are good now. With the type of person she is, I can say that she wouldn't do many of those things (particularly the hand holding, etc., in bed) if she wasn't trying to reconnect, but she may only be doing so in just that specific moment. That said, she's done those things consistently for almost every night this week. At the very least, that means that what I've been doing this week isn't bad, possibly good, and possibly starting to soften her heart a bit. The key word in all of that being possibly. Combined with the list above, it's making me feel more hopeful than I have so far, but I'm also not letting it go to my head that it means things are positively changing.
To put it another way, I've been lost in the woods, with no map and no trail to follow. I've finally found a trail, but still have to make the hike, and have no idea how far it is, nor if I'm headed the right way down the trail. All I know is I have to follow the trail.
What she is thinking in that moment, is fleeting at best.
A positive sign ??
Absolutely...
Enough to spin your tricycle out of control and run it into the ice cream cart ???
Absolutely....
It most likely means that is what she would like to happen, not necessarily what will happen...
Originally Posted by saladmakingproduct
Anyway, anybody got any thoughts on this? Like I said, I'm not trying to let it mean anything other than it's a list with some possibly positive things on it, but I'm also probably not the most objective person about my sitch.
So look at it this way....
You are both in a "time out" chair for the next 30 days....
DB, and follow the outlines and "rules" 100% for the next 30 days...
Do not obsess about it, think about what is happening in her head, or think in terms of even being married....
No posts about what she is doing, saying, thinking, or acting, or having a look in her eyes....
Positive things about you, and the salad that you might end up in....
Thanks, Mach. Reading your posts on Steve's threads has been really helpful the last couple of days.
Concerning the list, that was my exact thought. It's giving me hope, but it's not enough that I'd place a bet. I know she's struggling and wrestling with everything back and forth in her head and heart. Just because she feels it one minute doesn't mean she will the next.
I can do the 30 day posts about me only. The only real reason I'm posting about her actions, words, etc. is more or less journaling, though it's also nice to hear feedback from those with more experience.
Oh, and FYI, I only frequent the best salads... I don't slum it with those ones from McDonalds.
So, I've been re-reading Sandi's rules (and thankfully, I've been doing pretty much all of them this last week, and even some during the weeks prior) and have a question...
Originally Posted by Sandi2\
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
W messaged at lunchtime today to ask me if I want to go to an open house showing tomorrow. One of the topics of conversation these last few weeks is that if we did have a fresh start with each other, it wouldn't be in the house we live in. Partially because of memories, partially because we would downsize and live more affordably. I don't think it's a trap/ruse for her to see the house to decide if she wants to live there alone, because she wouldn't be able to afford it on her own. Even if we sold our current house, I'd get half the equity, which means she wouldn't have a large enough down payment to bring the monthly payments low enough. I think she is genuinely weighing out a future with us in a different house. Weighing, not deciding.
Beyond the open house thing, we have also been talking about parenting strategies for our S, which means we will have to talk about them from a standpoint of being together at some point.
I'm only discussing these things with her when she brings them up. At most, I might send her a link for a house listing, but usually only after she's sent one. I feel like if I didn't, it would make her think I'm uninterested and want to stay where we are (something she is diametrically opposed to, and not really what I want either).
So, I've been re-reading Sandi's rules (and thankfully, I've been doing pretty much all of them this last week, and even some during the weeks prior) and have a question...
Originally Posted by Sandi2\
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
W messaged at lunchtime today to ask me if I want to go to an open house showing tomorrow. One of the topics of conversation these last few weeks is that if we did have a fresh start with each other, it wouldn't be in the house we live in. Partially because of memories, partially because we would downsize and live more affordably. I don't think it's a trap/ruse for her to see the house to decide if she wants to live there alone, because she wouldn't be able to afford it on her own. Even if we sold our current house, I'd get half the equity, which means she wouldn't have a large enough down payment to bring the monthly payments low enough. I think she is genuinely weighing out a future with us in a different house. Weighing, not deciding.
Beyond the open house thing, we have also been talking about parenting strategies for our S, which means we will have to talk about them from a standpoint of being together at some point.
I'm only discussing these things with her when she brings them up. At most, I might send her a link for a house listing, but usually only after she's sent one. I feel like if I didn't, it would make her think I'm uninterested and want to stay where we are (something she is diametrically opposed to, and not really what I want either).
How would you all proceed?
This is fine. Sandi's rule #5 is about YOU not initiating and promoting talks about the future. LBSs often want to temp check their WAS by talking about the future to gauge interest. It is counter-productive to do because WASs don't wan ta future with the LBS at that time. Also, LBSs sometimes engage in that talk to try to convince the WAS how great the future can be.
So if she initiates, I don't think it breaks sandi's rule #5 to engage in the discussion. Just don't be the one to bring it up and don't make grand proclamations about how great the future can and will be.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, it's been nearly a month since my last post. Things have been going... well, just going.
As for me, I've been making improvements to myself still. I'm meditating at least daily, playing my guitar frequently (even wrote two new songs, one of which I recorded everything but vocals), I've got somewhat of a new focus on my business (at least in making sure I'm not letting it die), and have been eating new things and all around just healthier. I've slipped in the exercise department a bit, but with how active I am while working, it's at least keeping the weight off that I've lost (40 pounds total), so much so that none of my pants or shorts will stay up, and I'm on the verge of buying a new belt. I've stayed consistent on the housework, so much so that I find myself looking for things that are out of place, and bothered when they are. I've also raised the money to pay off our last credit card this month.
As for W and me, there have been lots of minor ups and downs, a few major ups and downs, and everything in between. About two weeks ago, we had a huge blow out one Friday evening. I ended up telling her that I'm working hard on myself, on our marriage, and I'm bringing about real change. I went on to say that her indecision is starting to drive a wedge between us, and that if she decides she wants me, I may not be available to her anymore. If she keeps giving me a signal of rejection, what will I eventually do?
She replied that she doesn't know if what she's seeing in me is real or not, and that she doesn't know if she can trust it. I replied with " I'm going to call you on your b***s*** right now on that one. If you don't think I'm taking this more seriously than I've ever taken anything in my life, your thinking is really f****d up. I'm painfully aware of what's at stake here, and how much you mean to me, and know that I have to make REAL change for myself, and for you by proxy."
That was a turning point in our conversation. She started settling down, and we fell asleep that night snuggled up to each other. I know that probably wasn't the wisest response I could have given, but it seemed like it jolted her a bit and got through. The next two days were the epitome of perfect. We were laughing, flirting, doing a team project (cleaning out the boy's room of old toys, etc.). We cooked together both nights, danced a little in the kitchen, and were spontaneously intimate on one of the nights. It was like we had fallen in love again.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the high water mark of the last few weeks. Things since have been okay, again with minor ups and downs. There's been lots of talk about moving into a new house (we almost put in an offer on one yesterday). However, just this morning, she told me that divorce is still on the table (if I'd have known that, I wouldn't have considered putting in an offer, because things seemed like we were on the road to recovery). She hasn't decided that, but she said she's trying to figure out if us staying together is doing what's right or just doing what's easy (I felt so devalued when she said this). She called me from her car a little later, and told me that she wants to want us. That I'm doing everything right, I've made real change, and I'm being what she wants in a perfect husband. She went on to say that as far as any kind of intimacy is concerned, emotional or physical, some days she's feeling it, and some days she's not. She said I'm unwavering and consistent in my affection and behavior, but she's just not there. She said that the majority of the last couple of weeks she's been feeling it, but other times she's not (like this morning). She also said that she's beginning to wonder if instead of focusing on looking for a house, we should be focusing on looking for a marriage counselor (to which I told her I already had numbers and had checked our insurance coverage, so I'm on board).
It's extremely hard because it feels like she's trying to find her way back, and at times maybe she's found the path, but then some of the statements this morning make me feel like any progress we've made has either come undone, or just doesn't mean jack...
Where I'm still struggling is feeling like I have value. I know that to the rest of the world, and I guess deep down inside myself, I probably seem like a great catch. I'm smart, funny, attractive (at least now that I've lost weight), kind and helpful, a hard worker, and have definitely learned what to do and not to do in a relationship if you want to keep it a happy one. I'm being the best father I can be, the best husband I can be, and have sacrificed a lot to ensure my family's well being. Everyone I've talked to about it says that I'm valuable, and am a good man, and that any woman would be lucky to have me. But the one person who I really care about their feelings on it is still (at least somewhat) rejecting me. The bit this morning about "what's right vs. what's easy" really did a number on me. It just made me feel like I'm not good enough to be "what's right AND what's easy". She basically said that I'm being perfect, her ideal mate, but she still struggles with wanting me.
I know the problem lies in her own heart and mind. I just wish that I could do more to help her find "us" again...
Unfortunately, that seems to be the high water mark of the last few weeks. Things since have been okay, again with minor ups and downs. There's been lots of talk about moving into a new house (we almost put in an offer on one yesterday). However, just this morning, she told me that divorce is still on the table (if I'd have known that, I wouldn't have considered putting in an offer, because things seemed like we were on the road to recovery). She hasn't decided that, but she said she's trying to figure out if us staying together is doing what's right or just doing what's easy (I felt so devalued when she said this). She called me from her car a little later, and told me that she wants to want us. That I'm doing everything right, I've made real change, and I'm being what she wants in a perfect husband. She went on to say that as far as any kind of intimacy is concerned, emotional or physical, some days she's feeling it, and some days she's not. She said I'm unwavering and consistent in my affection and behavior, but she's just not there. She said that the majority of the last couple of weeks she's been feeling it, but other times she's not (like this morning). She also said that she's beginning to wonder if instead of focusing on looking for a house, we should be focusing on looking for a marriage counselor (to which I told her I already had numbers and had checked our insurance coverage, so I'm on board).
crouton, so much of what you said struck a cord with me. I go back to late Jan, all of Feb. and part of March and my W was RIGHT where yours is now. I even got the "I want to want" thing. She was hot and cold. For two weeks in March we had sex more than the previous 10 years of our marriage combined. But yet she was still up and down.
A lot of that had to do with me. When I was the lighthouse, she'd often come my direction. The minute I put and pressure or pursuit on she when go the other way. I remember one conversation I started maybe as late as April, where I asked if we'd ever kiss passionately again. She said, exasperated "I don't know! Maybe we should just not be looking for a house since our future is uncertain!" I pulled back quickly. There is information some where on here, and you can look it up in other places too, related to the pursuit-distance dynamic. Look it up, When I pursued, she distanced. When I distanced, she pursued.
Eventually that even's out and you end up in a pursue-pursue state, where you both are doing it. But absolutely, as long as she is not in an active EA/PA get in to MC! That was a huge turning point for us. Also, really avoid discussing the R. My W really came around when we started having more fun, light conversations. Like we did when we were dating. Remember that? When everything wasn't all R all the time? When you could just go out on a Friday, hang out all day Saturday, be together all day Sunday, and hated to part each other's company Monday morning? Try to get back to that. Make it your goal. IF she starts an R discussion, validate her feelings, but avoid getting into a deep discussion.
Not sure if I mentioned this, but it seems you are in a good spot for these: look up touch and talk charges! In a nutshell you should non-sexually touching and having small fun talks with your W a few times a day. If she is open to, get back into date night. Again, date night is about enjoying each other's company, and not to discuss deep R issues.
Have you read about love languages? Have you both taken the assessment? Do you know how to speak love to her and fill up her love tank? If not get the book and do it. If she is open have her read it and take the assessment too.
I feel good about where you are crouton. Your W is showing signs of turning back to MR. There will be moments (like saying D is still on the table) where she rebels against it. I think you are in a position to start doing some small things (talk and touch charges, date night, keeping your interactions light and fun) that will continue to draw her that way.
Keep up the work! You are already seeing it pay dividends.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
crouton, so much of what you said struck a cord with me. I go back to late Jan, all of Feb. and part of March and my W was RIGHT where yours is now. I even got the "I want to want" thing. She was hot and cold. For two weeks in March we had sex more than the previous 10 years of our marriage combined. But yet she was still up and down.
I remember reading this in your threads. I haven't had a similar experience, though I think we've had sex about as often as we ever have the last month or so. What I have seen, however, is her reaching out to me for affection (hand holding/snuggling in bed, laying against me on the couch) more than she was just before all of this began.
Originally Posted by Steve85
A lot of that had to do with me. When I was the lighthouse, she'd often come my direction. The minute I put and pressure or pursuit on she when go the other way. I remember one conversation I started maybe as late as April, where I asked if we'd ever kiss passionately again. She said, exasperated "I don't know! Maybe we should just not be looking for a house since our future is uncertain!" I pulled back quickly. There is information some where on here, and you can look it up in other places too, related to the pursuit-distance dynamic. Look it up, When I pursued, she distanced. When I distanced, she pursued.
Eventually that even's out and you end up in a pursue-pursue state, where you both are doing it. But absolutely, as long as she is not in an active EA/PA get in to MC! That was a huge turning point for us. Also, really avoid discussing the R. My W really came around when we started having more fun, light conversations. Like we did when we were dating. Remember that? When everything wasn't all R all the time? When you could just go out on a Friday, hang out all day Saturday, be together all day Sunday, and hated to part each other's company Monday morning? Try to get back to that. Make it your goal. IF she starts an R discussion, validate her feelings, but avoid getting into a deep discussion.
I've been keeping distance for the most part and letting her pursue me. I might give her a quick kiss on the cheek or a hug where I initiate things, but only because during one conversation when she was telling me she needed to not feel smothered with affection, I expressed that it would be weird for both of us if I showed her no affection at all, to which she agreed. She just didn't want the amps turned up to eleven (guitarists will get this reference). Mostly, it's just let her come to me, though.
I have definitely been avoiding talks about our MR. I only speak of it when she brings it up, and only as much as is needed. Mostly, when we have talked about it, it's been related to things we both want in life, our home, travel, etc., not where we are, or where we've been. I've been doing all I can to have light, fun conversations with her. Unfortunately, after a minute or two, she seems to clam up. But, then we have another one an hour later, and then she clams up. I've been giving her space and not making a big deal about it, though.
I still can't say with 100% certainty that a PA or EA hasn't happened/is happening. I'm leaning far more towards no, or that if it did, it was a one night stand when all of this kicked off (and maybe one of the roadblocks is that she's feeling guilty and doesn't know how to tell me/face the guilt). I'm going to try and talk to her more about MC, hopefully tonight, so I can set it up. This is the first time in this past 2.5 months that she's brought it up and actually seemed like she wanted to put in the effort. I chalk that up to her seeing consistent action to change on my part, and the results of said changes, and maybe feeling like she can trust them, which means MC might be worth a shot.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Not sure if I mentioned this, but it seems you are in a good spot for these: look up touch and talk charges! In a nutshell you should non-sexually touching and having small fun talks with your W a few times a day. If she is open to, get back into date night. Again, date night is about enjoying each other's company, and not to discuss deep R issues.
I don't know if she's ready for date night yet. Possibly, and I only say that because of how things went for those two days after the last big blow out. I'm just unsure how to talk to her about it without it seeming like I'm pursuing her.
As for non-sexual touches and conversation, I've been doing just that. Most of it is initiated by her. Things like sitting with me on the couch and laying back against me, or holding hands in bed when she doesn't snuggle up to me, but I also do things like put a hand on her shoulder if she's showing me something, or touch the small of her back as I'm passing by and do a quick rub in passing, etc.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Have you read about love languages? Have you both taken the assessment? Do you know how to speak love to her and fill up her love tank? If not get the book and do it. If she is open have her read it and take the assessment too.
I have, and I know hers are acts of service (likely her primary) and quality time, with a specific dialect of quality events. Mine are physical touch and words of affirmation, and they're split pretty evenly (PT was a 10, WoA was a 9). I don't know if she's open to the idea or not.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I feel good about where you are crouton. Your W is showing signs of turning back to MR. There will be moments (like saying D is still on the table) where she rebels against it. I think you are in a position to start doing some small things (talk and touch charges, date night, keeping your interactions light and fun) that will continue to draw her that way.
Keep up the work! You are already seeing it pay dividends.
I'm trying to... if I never had a lesson in patience during my life, I sure do now.
AAAAAAAANNNDDDDDD now we're back to talks of separation.
She said this morning that she feels like she keeps coming back to thinking what if she's only staying because I'd fall apart if she left. She says that she can't get past that, and that through separating she could see that the world won't explode, and if she chooses, that we prefer each others company.
I'm still against separating. I told her so, but told her I'd pack a bag and leave if that's what she needs. Her first response was to ask where I'd go. I just told her I'd figure it out. Then she said we need to have a deeper conversation before I just packed up and left. I asked her about what, and she brought up our son. I told her that I didn't know, but maybe we would have to do it like what a judge will likely decree, her having full custody and me seeing him on weekends/every other weekend. I went on to say I know that would put her in a bind as far as her job is concerned, and while I could pick him up in the afternoons and then drop him off/her pick him up later in the evening, that's not really being separated, just me living somewhere else, which kind of defeats her definition of being separated, which is to simulate a divorce.Then she asked about finances, and I said I didn't know. Then she asked again where I'd go. I replied that it wasn't really her concern, because it wouldn't be if we were divorcing. The only thing I think could be her concern is if it was a safe environment for our son. Then she said we'd have to discuss it further later because she was almost at work.
I had my first IC session this afternoon, and we're seeing a MC tomorrow afternoon (I sent her a text when I got a call today from the MC office about the appointment tomorrow since they had a cancellation, and she said she'd be there). The IC session didn't really do much. It was mainly just me describing where I am and how I got here. No meds, and the counselor just wants me to work out more to clear the cortisol from my brain, which is keeping me in a state of anxiety.
I'm so angry and depressed right now. I feel like the progress we made over the last 2.5 months has all just come crashing down. I'm beginning to question again if I have a WAW or a WW. I'm back to feeling like I'm just not good enough or worth enough because I've changed, and she's even said so and that I'm being exactly what she wants in an ideal husband, but she just doesn't feel it (at least some of the time... I don't know if it's even any of the time at this point).
If anyone has any advice or insight, I'm all ears. I'm trying to figure out how to detach and just let go of the outcome, but I'm not being very successful.
