Anger and rage are the WAW' of justifying their unjustifiable action. Whether it is an EA, PA, or just being tired of being a W and mother, for most doing that pleasantly feels wrong.
My take on WWs is a bit different than sandi's and V's. All are WAW's, some are also wayward. DBing can work in both cases though certain tactics have to be adjusted. But you still need to GAL, 180, detach and be the S only a fool would leave. Oh and that last one includes reclaiming respect.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve/all...yep I agree with you. It's all a defense mechanism to beat down other more vulnerable feelings of sadness/fear/etc that they don't want to face. Better to cast/project resentment/false accusations onto the LBH than to face the feelings deep within their self conscious that tell them what they have done they should not have done.
I'm sure I was embellishing a bit on the anger/rage. It feels way worse than it is, but the daily "what's gonna come today" gets tiring. As I say W continually doing that does very much help to move me forward and detach. I mean nobody wants to deal with mess like that all the time no matter how much I may love her.
Stepping back from us I can see that she is acting textbook to what many of you have said she would act like. Operating purely from emotion, spewing as she feels the need, creating false realities to make me the bad guy. Exactly as many of you told me. I know I'm only into the 4th month, but I kind of have a clarity of the WW tornado within which I'm existing. There's not the panic there once was inside me, although detaching is a continual process for sure.
I feel pretty good all things considered. At this point I would still be interested to R especially as we have not given anything in what was our MR a single minute of serious discussion since BD. At least get it all on the table and exhaust all options. BUT honestly I'm ok with the future without her as well now. I think SHE has pushed me that way more so than me myself doing it. I just know I don't deserve any of the crazy that's come out of her mouth so being set free would be a blessing if she keeps on as she is now. As I heard once "when it comes to you or her you will make a decision". Anyway that's me now...trying to keep hope for whatever way that means and roll on along.
So I was reading the following post that sandi put up within the last few days. Given my sitch where we are separated and W has little/no respect for me what chance/how can the work I do on myself and my desire command her respect come about? I mean you read what sandi writes below and for an LBH in my sitch it sounds completely hopeless. Curious for experienced folks on here, perhaps sandi herself to weigh in.
Sandi's post:
That's a valid question. It would be interesting to hear a round table discussion on the subject from a group of former WW's. When I try to put it into words, it starts getting more complexed. So, bear with me here.
I feel it is highly unlikely for her to "wake up", without those experiences you mentioned. I have observed this type of situation for a long time even before I knew the psychology (if you will) behind it, or experienced it myself. I can't recall a case where the WW came to her senses and returned to her former self......in that MR with that LBH. B/c it takes self effort, self discipline, cooperation, and in most cases.... some type of counseling or accountability. It is a process to bring your mindset back to a healthy mental place. There is no snapping out of it. We may inadvertly use that word, but it is not an action that is suddenly done & over. I am very suspicious of any wayward W who claims anything "suddenly". She didn't become wayward overnight (even if some H's think so) and she can't complete her way back over night.
The cases I remember where a WW was involved, the couple would divorce, and she'd move on to another man. If she was lucky, she would marry an alpha type who took none of her b.s. and held her feet to the fire. I've seen these WW's respect these second or third H and not have the problems as with the first H who she disrespected. Of course, this can get deeper and I could talk about the type that is wayward with all their H's in every MR......but I'll spare you.
I think you really want to know about a WW who stays with the betrayed/disrespected H, and she doesn't have consequences, or experience loss.....etc. does she just kind of ease back into her former self? I don't believe so. I wished it was like the movies, where she sees how good a man her H is, and fall in love all over again. But she can't, as long as the disrespect goes unresolved. That's why we say, you can't nice back a .WW. At best, the couple would live together as roommates and he would settle for whatever level friendship (if you could even call it such) that she offered on a "good mood" day. The H would basically give up sex for the remainder of his life, and try to endure a woman who does not respect him........all in the name of keeping his family together for the sake of his kids.
Let me add this part, since we are talking about possibilities. I was raised in a strong Christian environment and M into the same type of family. I was very active in Church, but there was a little part of my heart that struggled throughout my entire M. I would try to forgive my H, and go on.....but the feelings of disrespect was constantly gaining. We had been suffering in several areas for many years. Long story shortened........I had an Internet A. In time, I begin to see little red flags in OM and I needed someone to talk to about it. One night I "accidentally" found my way to this board, and there were just the right people who were able to get my attention. I give them and this board a lot of credit for helping me to get my eyes opened. However, I also give credit and much thanks to God. I can look back and see how the timing of things all fell into place.......and I just had to make the decision to "do the right thing", based on my personal values & beliefs. Even after making that decision to end my A and start showing respect for my H, it took me nearly two years before I could work through my fantasy issues and resentment/disrespect issues. This is a lot of stuff to process, and most LBH's just have no clue and think she should just "snap" back.
There is no "snapping back". It is a long, trying, and painful process for her. Want to know why? Everything about her waywardness was built on feelings/emotions/fantasy........mostly negative/inappropriate. Waywardness is an act of volition, it is never forced on anyone against their will. When the WW experiences something that makes her see herself in true light of day,........she cannot wait around on feelings to guide her or she'll likely stay stuck. She has to make decisions based on the right thing to do.......and from her own free will. It is so hard b/c her feelings are not cooperating with the right thing to do. Unless, and until, she experiences true remorse, her heart can't open up for positive feelings for her H. She has to completely let go of all the resentment over the past, and she has to intentionally show respectful behavior for her H before her loving feelings catch up. It's easy when we fall in love the first time around. We have all those wonderful feelings floating around in us. When we are working our way back from waywardness, we are more likely to find ourselves feeling nothing for our spouse........and it's scary. Not being able to have her feelings return for her H is the scarest thing for a WW, when she's considering staying in the M. The feelings can return! But she's got to work through all those main issues first.
Anyway, I did suffer some those things you mentioned, but not nearly as much as a lot of WW's. That's where I have to give thanks to God and the people who gave me the information I needed. I think it was a combination of the right information and my faith that really got me back on track. Without the understanding of forgiveness being an act of grace, and knowing I could never be at peace with God until I did repent for my A and I did forgive my H for the past.........I just don't think I would have pulled out of it without a lot of effort on my part. B/c it is an act of volition....going into the waywardness and coming out of it. FWIW, it's a lot easier going in than coming out! I had a lot of stubborn pride, and that's why it took me nearly two years. I'm not saying it takes that long for every person.....but it is a process.
Wow! IDK if I answered your question or not.....but I said a lot. Let me give this word of what I hope is encouragement. At the base of waywardness lies disrespect. If you are going to remain in a M with a WW, you have to hold her feet to the fire about showing you respect. You can't help what she thinks/feels.....but you don't take her outward show of disrespect for you and the MR. If there is ever hope things will change......it will come by you commanding (not demanding) respect as her H and as the head of the family. Make the needed changes if you have NGS......b/c you can change a lot. Set boundaries and carry through with enforcing consequences if they are dishonored.
If you are going to remain in a M with a WW, you have to hold her feet to the fire about showing you respect. You can't help what she thinks/feels.....but you don't take her outward show of disrespect for you and the MR. If there is ever hope things will change......it will come by you commanding (not demanding) respect as her H and as the head of the family. Make the needed changes if you have NGS......b/c you can change a lot. Set boundaries and carry through with enforcing consequences if they are dishonored.
Can someone provide examples of what/how a non-in-house separated LBH goes about doing the above?
"Can someone provide examples of what/how a non-in-house separated LBH goes about doing the above?"
I am not sure why there is a difference? The only difference is that the interactions are less often. But no matter what your circumstances, the point is to follow sandi's advice WHENEVER you have the opportunity.
I wrote about this the other day. LBHs always think the other situation is better. If they are inhouse S'd they talk about how much easier it would be to be truly S'd. If they are really S'd then they think it would be easier to be in-house S'd.
The truth is there is no difference except the amount of interaction you have. More is both a blessing and curse. you have more opportunity to show her your GAL, 180s, and detachment. However, those things become more difficult due to having to deal with her a lot more often. Less is both a blessing and a curse. Detachment becomes easier, but you have less opportunities to show her your changes.
In the end you still need to be GAL, 180ing, detaching, and being the best ballast that you can be! Do that 24/7, and whenever you are interacting with her she will take notice.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, yep I do get that each scenario has it's pluses and minuses. I would not trade being physically separated for in house. I honestly believe that would be much more emotionally taxing.
It's just if you are physically separated and if it's a prerequisite as sandi provides that the LBH needs to hold the WW's feet to the fire in order for her to maybe gain back some respect for him. If she doesn't see/interact with him, no matter how needed that is, the LBH can't make it happen. Hope that makes sense on why I asked.
It does, but you do have interaction with her. And will for the next 15 years (coparents). So you command respect in any interaction you have. You do that by shutting down any conversation that she starts getting disrespectful in. You do that by projecting confidence at every interactions. No sadness, woe is me, nor depression. CONFIDENT. PRESENT. PLEASANT. PLEASED. CONTENT.
Those are what you project.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So I was reading the following post that sandi put up within the last few days. Given my sitch where we are separated and W has little/no respect for me what chance/how can the work I do on myself and my desire command her respect come about? I mean you read what sandi writes below and for an LBH in my sitch it sounds completely hopeless.
Well in reading through Sandi's post I've got to say that as usual she is right on target. That is the uphill battle an LBS faces. This is why we stress a few things-
1. You are not trying to go back to the old M, it is dead and gone. You are trying to build a new R with her.
2. PATIENCE. It took a long time for your W to become a WAS and it will take a long time for her to come out of that.
3. TIME and SPACE. Nothing you do is going to affect her directly. By changing yourself you can affect her INDIRECTLY. And that takes time. You've got to become someone she DOES respect. You do that by getting in touch with being a man again. We all start out alpha, and married life makes us very beta. So you get back in touch with your alpha side.
As far as it being completely hopeless, again I will turn to my buddy's story to demonstrate it is not. His W was a textbook WAS/ WW. Left him in disgust, wanted nothing to do with him, it was over, didn't even want to talk. They split up the house and business and she moved in with OM. Hopeless, right? Yet they are back together and have been for several years and have a stronger M than ever before. I have a few other personal examples too, but the point is there is ALWAYS hope.
Stander, yes I mean the uphill battle she portrays...chances of an LBS like me NOT divorcing are slim to none. And then if I do divorce, not to say that folks like your friend don't come around, but by then at what cost? It's commentary like sandi provides that really hits home to me that at best most likely I could be in the future with her post-D, but anything changing pre-D is highly unlikely. The old MR is dead I know that and accept it, heck at this point any R with her is basically the same. Patience, time, space and acceptance are the things within my control. The whole we started out alpha...eh we all started out slate clean, now we are old news. There are too many men that I see who are married to loving women and in no way are those men alpha. Anyway...the whole thing is just discouraging to me. The best (more like only thing) I can do is just to forget her and move on for myself. I appreciate everyone's comments on it...just frustrated but realistic about the fact that between now and when she can D me, ain't nothing likely to change her mind if she's in the state that sandi describes. The futility that I feel...starting to hate her to the point I give up.
