There is a difference between avoiding something you don't want and getting what you want. Playing the abuse and booting them out card avoids a tough situation, but it doesn't result in a lifelong fulfilling partnership. The result is divorce and a broken home.
The main culprit is this persistent delusion that "we deserve more and we'll find someone better". It took me a while to understand how people would still believe this but it is a very alluring idea because we all think we're special and deserve to have our wishes come true. In practice it just doesn't play out that way. Somewhere around 40% never remarry, and approximately 67% of those who do go on to divorce. So right there the odds are 20% that someone will achieve a life long marriage after a divorce. And that still hasn't addressed the relative quality of the partner. Many of those marriages aren't any better, but sometimes people learn to put up with a little more because the grass isn't greener. In the end it's the same group of people divorcing and remarrying each other, and they are all flawed humans. And even for the subset of this 20% that was truly in a threatening situation who found better success with their next partner, they are still dealing with the loss and ramifications of their divorce for the rest of their life. Don't hit me with anecdotes about someone that's found the love of their life. I know they are out there. If you do an unbiased survey the conclusions are clear.
This is the part that gets left out of the 'don't put up with their crap'. As long as we're comparing a bad relationship with the fantasy of reading a self help book or two and ending up in a fulfilling lifelong relationship then our current relationship looks pretty bad. In fact, this line of reasoning is the same that WAS's use in the first place. The WAS thinks they were abused and they are doing the right thing by not taking any crap. They think they're special and deserve better.
MWD's message is very similar to what I've posted. She is saying that in almost all cases that a spouse thinks their marriage could never change and be fulfilling there is hope, and divorce isn't the right answer. Yes, she was shaped by her personal experiences, but also by being an IC for years and seeing the reality of how hundreds of divorces initiated and played out.
I don't mean to be discouraging to people that are single that didn't choose to be. I am a LBS as are most of you on these boards. But to me the whole "I deserve better and I'm going to go get it" attitude is what's responsible for more destruction that the H bomb. It was responsible for the biggest loss in my life and it hasn't worked out that well for XW from what I can tell. If her life improves years from now it will be in spite of the divorce, not because of it. So I'm not going to turn the tables and say, "XW had the right attitude, I should've just played the 'I deserve better' card first and left her years ago so I could be living the dream by now".
Thats why i said that michelle weiners books are better suited for the waywards that have ended their marriage, their contract by cheating..by lies (and i dont mean im not the one that finished off the ice cream lies)...im talking about leading secret lives that destroy.
Im saying that her theories are distorted by people really being abused and made fools of, like most of the posters here.. and yes i know most of the waywards here have pulled the abuse card so none of us want to be as unfair amd dare to claim it. r even trust it. My ex told me and everyone how i was emotionally and verbally abusive. Hah!
But the idea or concept of working to save a marriage by eating sh!t sandwicjes with someone that is cheating or has cheated or has lied and stolen from his own family is outrageous and perpetuates abuse.
It actually would have worked out for me had i left my ex before he left me.
Thats because he was secretly building up debt and withdrawing tons of money for years.
So had i been the one to leave earlier, my life would definitively be no worse.
Theres a possibility it could be better
1. I would have been receiving his child support.
2. I would have known, and made different financial decisions.
3. I would have been younger. Would have had the opportunity to have another child with someone new.
4. My son wpuld bond with a step dad at a younger age.
Had we reconciled. If Dbing worked for me
1. I would have been exposed and could have possibly contracted some serious diseases.
2. My son could have found and injested carelessly misplaced drugs if ex decompensated (that almost happened with that persons grandchild i wrote about in an earlier post)
There is a difference between avoiding something you don't want and getting what you want. Playing the abuse and booting them out card avoids a tough situation, but it doesn't result in a lifelong fulfilling partnership. The result is divorce and a broken home.
The main culprit is this persistent delusion that "we deserve more and we'll find someone better". It took me a while to understand how people would still believe this but it is a very alluring idea because we all think we're special and deserve to have our wishes come true. In practice it just doesn't play out that way. Somewhere around 40% never remarry, and approximately 67% of those who do go on to divorce. So right there the odds are 20% that someone will achieve a life long marriage after a divorce. And that still hasn't addressed the relative quality of the partner. Many of those marriages aren't any better, but sometimes people learn to put up with a little more because the grass isn't greener. In the end it's the same group of people divorcing and remarrying each other, and they are all flawed humans. And even for the subset of this 20% that was truly in a threatening situation who found better success with their next partner, they are still dealing with the loss and ramifications of their divorce for the rest of their life. Don't hit me with anecdotes about someone that's found the love of their life. I know they are out there. If you do an unbiased survey the conclusions are clear.
This is the part that gets left out of the 'don't put up with their crap'. As long as we're comparing a bad relationship with the fantasy of reading a self help book or two and ending up in a fulfilling lifelong relationship then our current relationship looks pretty bad. In fact, this line of reasoning is the same that WAS's use in the first place. The WAS thinks they were abused and they are doing the right thing by not taking any crap. They think they're special and deserve better.
MWD's message is very similar to what I've posted. She is saying that in almost all cases that a spouse thinks their marriage could never change and be fulfilling there is hope, and divorce isn't the right answer. Yes, she was shaped by her personal experiences, but also by being an IC for years and seeing the reality of how hundreds of divorces initiated and played out.
I don't mean to be discouraging to people that are single that didn't choose to be. I am a LBS as are most of you on these boards. But to me the whole "I deserve better and I'm going to go get it" attitude is what's responsible for more destruction that the H bomb. It was responsible for the biggest loss in my life and it hasn't worked out that well for XW from what I can tell. If her life improves years from now it will be in spite of the divorce, not because of it. So I'm not going to turn the tables and say, "XW had the right attitude, I should've just played the 'I deserve better' card first and left her years ago so I could be living the dream by now".
Thats why i said that michelle weiners books are better suited for the waywards that have ended their marriage, their contract by cheating..by lies (and i dont mean im not the one that finished off the ice cream lies)...im talking about leading secret lives that destroy.
Im saying that her theories are distorted by people really being abused and made fools of, like most of the posters here.. and yes i know most of the waywards here have pulled the abuse card so none of us want to be as unfair amd dare to claim it. r even trust it. My ex told me and everyone how i was emotionally and verbally abusive. Hah!
But the idea or concept of working to save a marriage by eating sh!t sandwicjes with someone that is cheating or has cheated or has lied and stolen from his own family is outrageous and perpetuates abuse.
I think we're on the same page that there is a time to stay and there is a time to go. Then we're just back to where that line is.
I've posted about the trade off before between more deal breakers and higher divorce rate. In general I tend to be more conservative than most so it seems that a lot of divorces could be prevented and might even circle around to decent relationships, and that this mindset is contagious as a society and has been overused and spread like wildfire. To others where I would draw the line seems to advocate for enduring and enabling abuse and mistreatment.
One thing is clear: There is not a consensus. Each person decides according to their values and beliefs (or desires and emotions) where that line is. While I think that makes the institution of marriage pretty bumpy (like trying to play a game where everyone makes up their own rules) I don't see that changing. I can certainly accept that many draw those lines differently. In the end I'll share my beliefs with my children and those that are interested and try to manage my own road.
As far as your specific sitch, first off even I agree that adultery is a deal breaker. I don't think this was ever confirmed in your sitch. As for the other things, I wouldn't regret your choices if I were in your place. You can measure your life by taking a tally of your income and current quality of life, or by your ability to look in the mirror and feel good about the choices you've made. Maybe if you were to do it differently you might have protected the family's finances differently or confronted these things differently, but I don't think remaining married was a blunder. I know things would have been materialistically easier had I left XW years ago, but just as I never regret having my children, I also don't regret honoring my vows and doing what I could to preserve my family. I get where you're coming from. Again, we all draw those lines a little differently and I can respect that.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Things would have been better had I left W a long time ago also, she was controlling and in the end held me back from becoming who i was meant to be. Except, I made the choice to be who I was and can't really put that on her. Maybe had I never married her I would own my own business by now, traveled the entire world and married a much more compatible person. But then again I wouldn't have my kids either and instead married a serial killer. I could say had I saved the marriage I would have ended up being forced to cheat on her and live in a loveless marriage disproving why this site would have been, that's a reality that could have happened also.
I could look at an unlimited amount of realities and rewrite them to suit what I want to hear, pick the ones I like most or that were even the most likely. However, none of them happened so they are based in fantasy. In the end those realities only serve to keep us stuck in what should have been or could have been instead or looking at the reality of now. Life could better, sure, but for most of us it could be significantly worse also. I spent alot is time here both when I was trying to cling to the M and afterwards when I was angry with BD. In the beginning I only seen and heard what I wanted to hear "this is how you fix this" instead of the deal message that was fit in about improving yourself, growing as a person and letting go of trying to control someone. Afterwards I couldn't accept the failure so places the blame on a broken theory. One where we should have never tried to save the M and everyone was a fool for "eating [censored] sandwiches". But after a while I realized I was still cherry picking what I wanted to hear. My DB coach showed me how to stand up for myself in a strong way and not allow people to walk over me. How to set strong boundaries and grow as a person. My coach even told me to "give yourself permission to give up on my M". Not to save the M, but to help me let go of things outside of my control. I think the root principles we see in DB are good, we just perceive them in a different way depending on where we are. I don't blame MWD for making a business aorund believing in something like hope a marriage can get better, because for some it can and even if it didn't work those things translated into different area did my life positively.
Do you want to be someone else other than who you are now? To accept who you are now you have to accept the events in your life as stepping stones that shaped you, no matter what they may be. In the end we may not have control over the events or situations that happen in our lives but we do have control of how we react to them and what we take away from them.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Fogg, i think the DBing books and theories are great books for declining marriages.
My point is that the majority of us on here were not merely in declining marriages. We were being deceived and abused. In marriages with addicts and cheaters.
Deceived and abused people are usually being gaslighted which makes it easy for us to think we can fix our marriages. We think its us! Most of us are already pro marriage. Most abused people dont recognize they are being abused. They are not the ones to call out abuse. They are frustrated, depressed, know something is wrong. But will stay and try to fix things. Thats why we all love newcomers. Its about staying and fixing things.
But there needs to be acknowledgement in her books. She is a health care professional. I would hope she is aware of the type of people posting here...people using her books to justify staying with addicts, cheaters, and even pedophiles.
When you put something out there, and build something based on helping vulnerable people there should also be a responsibility to go back and check. Make changes. Address misconceptions.
Now if you are in it for a quick buck. To exploit those people, thats a different story. Just 1 more con. But i hope thats not what this is.
I think her chapter on mid life crisis perpetuates staying in an abusive relationship. She admits to never having been im that situation and to not being sure if she would be able to stick with a partner in "mlc" yet she doesnt discourqge it. She almost paints this picture of admiration for people that do.
Yet if she came on here and read the stories of these kids that are suicidal and developing eating disorders and behabior problems cause mom is noble and staying with her mlc spouse. I wonder what she would say.
(I will pm you a current poster in mlc that makes me feel so horrible for her son. I had to stop reading)
Fogg, i think the DBing books and theories are great books for declining marriages.
My point is that the majority of us on here were not merely in declining marriages. We were being deceived and abused. In marriages with addicts and cheaters.
Deceived and abused people are usually being gaslighted which makes it easy for us to think we can fix our marriages. We think its us! Most of us are already pro marriage. Most abused people dont recognize they are being abused. They are not the ones to call out abuse. They are frustrated, depressed, know something is wrong. But will stay and try to fix things. Thats why we all love newcomers. Its about staying and fixing things.
But there needs to be acknowledgement in her books. She is a health care professional. I would hope she is aware of the type of people posting here...people using her books to justify staying with addicts, cheaters, and even pedophiles.
When you put something out there, and build something based on helping vulnerable people there should also be a responsibility to go back and check. Make changes. Address misconceptions.
Now if you are in it for a quick buck. To exploit those people, thats a different story. Just 1 more con. But i hope thats not what this is.
MWD wrote the book the way she did for a reason. It wasn't to exploit people. It was, I think at least, that she understood that if she included exceptions about abuse and addiction that people would take those paragraphs and over-apply them to their situations to the point of voiding out the entire book.
The problem with the 'abuse and addiction and cheating' thing is that when a marriage is crap both partners are at their worst. They are so full of pain and resentment they are well beyond their ability to cope. In these circumstances people do things they normally wouldn't. How can you tell if it's temporary or chronic behavior? The only way is to get beyond the worst to see if things come around.
Many marriages have survived drug use or alcoholism, adultery, and hurtful behavior. The whole idea of DB is to end the dysfunctional dynamic and stop hurting each other, get better as an individual, and then see what develops. From a strong healthy place of detachment maybe the LBS prefers accepting some destructive behavior versus getting a divorce. Maybe the partner, finding themselves no longer in a retaliatory battle, changes in some positive ways. Besides, the LBS was going to spend time grieving and detaching and growing whether they do it in the M or out of it.
I do agree that our culture is moving away from this mentality and going to a more "They're the problem, here's proof, I deserve better" mindset. This is exactly why she wrote the book.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I agree that addicts, adulterers, and liars have that mentality Zues. The mentality of "they r the problem i deserve better"
I will tell you, i would never ever cheat on my partner. I would not have the potential to inflict that kind of harm. I would never lie about money and secretly withdraw enough money to buy a home while my child was living with my in laws. I would not have the potential for that type of thievery and that type of potential.
I think where you and i disagree is that i believe that individuals are who they are and make decisions based on who they are.
I really believe once a cheater always a cheater. Once an addict always an addict, once a deceiver always a deceiver.
I think that, because i would not make those choices. I have them but would not make them. I never did, never will. Its who i am at the core.
Lets say a man took his ex wife back who cheated. He brought her to an island with no other men. And she never cheated again. Marriage might be better. But at the core she is still a cheater. There is a weakness and inherent selfishness in them at the core. Theres a difference between people that pull the trigger and people that dont.
I think a person that truly changes is really really rare.
I honestly believe that encouraging reconciliation with these types of people is a short term solution and irresponsible. Its like putting a band aide over a major wound. Its like letting a sociopathic child molester back to teach kindergarten.
I think band aides and short term solutions are bigger problems with our society.
I think your beliefs about marriage would be better served by harsher penalties on people that do walk away from their families. Like look at it case by case. Why should a stay at home wife that cheats on her husband get a permanent meal ticket, paid legal expenses, and custody of kids? Why is a man that walks away from his wife and kids only responsible for a small fraction of support ?
Why does our legal system and society support and protect F.ups? To me thats the real problem.
I think it is dangerous and short sighted and irresponsible to not address abuse. The people buying those books are usually people like us anyway.
I am a health care worker. Lets say i came up with a great exercise program amd wrote a book about it. But realized these exercises were actually harming a fairly large population of people who bought on to my program. Maybe its because i left out a section, or maybe they were misinterpreting it. Maybe the population that bought it were more vulnerable because they were acute injury or hospitilization.
Wouldnt it be a good idea for me to follow through with that and address that?
We are responsible for everything we put out in the universe, no?
