He pays child support. Just i have to chase him down for things like therapy and camp. I was also referring to that time before i took him to court.
I remember another thing he said to me after BD. He said he was just waiting till son turned 21 so he could leave me.
What happened was that we were at my parents for a year, and i was telling him we would have to move and consider putting down for a housea and i was asking him how much he was saving. I had no idea about the debt or his depletion of his IRA. So insteqd of waiting till son was 21, he had to act. He pushed buttons and picked fights disappeared all the time to justify leaving based on my reactions
Can you imagine if we had reconciled? He woukd have been waiting and buying his time to screw me over when i was older.
I remember while divorce busting. I could never keep my emotions in. I acted on emotions. Begging, screaming at him. Telling him he wasnt a man or a father. Like filing for child suppprt in court. Had i not done that, he probably would have came back. He would have realized how much more money he cpuld have spent on drugs if he didnt have to pay child support and if he had a wife willing to walk on egg shells to keep him around.
My so called negative reactions and emotions actually saved me from a future with him. It would have added years to him screwing us over on a daily basis.
We all try to help people reconcilw their marriages with cheaters and addicts and liars and we shouldnt be.
As a hralth care professional, michelle weiner davis owes her clients (by clients i also mean book readers) more. She needs to add a chapter in on abuse.
She doesnt though. She admits in her mid life crises section that she has never had to live with someone like that. But still offers hope.
You know who else offers hope? Psychics and con artists and many divorce lawyers. They pray on vulnerable people. Most of us here were in abusive or toxic situations. We are the most vulnerable. Chrissy, scouring these forums coming on here with help for over 100 dollars an hour for a phone visit? Whats the difference between her and an ambulabce chaser?
I just feel so traumatized by the years of deception.
I feel like a broken record on here though. Cause i keep saying and feeling the same way. The cycles of anger. That feeling of financial stuckness. Even with taking on more hours, it helps me with small things. But nothing big. Like equity.
She doesnt though. She admits in her mid life crises section that she has never had to live with someone like that. But still offers hope.
JujuB,
A couple of years ago, I looked into Michele Weiner-Davis' background. He parents divorced when she was young. She said it seemed to come out of nowhere. Her parents seemed to be happy and there was no fighting or open hostility. For whatever reason, her mother wanted a divorce.
Because of her childhood experience Michele wanted to do what she could to save marriages. She obviously knows the pain of the children who have to go through divorce. I think her heart is in the right place. I do think the advice provided by the DB book is probably better applied very early in the process of a marital decline.
I know you're in a difficult place emotionally. My own anger waxes and wanes. I hate that my sons' lives were disrupted by something so senseless. The guy my wife hooked up with is, by almost any definition, a complete loser. And, he's never going to leave his wife. Yet my sons have to pay the price.
Hang in there; everything seems to take longer than we'd like.
I think her books are excellent books for marriages in decline. I think they would be particularly suited to those thinking of leaving their marriages. I recommend them all the tine to the rare waywards that come on here.
The problem is that many of the posters on here have been gaslighted by their spouses. Their spouses are secret addicts, or secret/open cheaters. We have even had a pedophile spouse on here.
The problem is 180s and validation techniques and petting the kitten crap just takes away the power of the LBS. It perpetuates the abuse at a time that we just needed to hear "hes cheating and lying and exposing you to diseases...run!" Not your marriage can actually be stronger after infidelity.
I think she needs to distinguish from a marriage that can be saved and continuing on in a abusive situation for the sake of the marriage. The problem as vanilla has pointed out, is that the truly abused dont realize that they are being abused. They grab on to books and promises like preventing a divorce because they believe their spouses lies. They believe it was them. That they were the problems. Thats what they have been brainwqshed with by their wayward spouses.
The problem is that many of the posters on here have been gaslighted by their spouses. Their spouses are secret addicts, or secret/open cheaters. We have even had a pedophile spouse on here.
The problem is 180s and validation techniques and petting the kitten crap just takes away the power of the LBS. It perpetuates the abuse at a time that we just needed to hear "hes cheating and lying and exposing you to diseases...run!" Not your marriage can actually be stronger after infidelity.
I think she needs to distinguish from a marriage that can be saved and continuing on in a abusive situation for the sake of the marriage. The problem as vanilla has pointed out, is that the truly abused dont realize that they are being abused. They grab on to books and promises like preventing a divorce because they believe their spouses lies. They believe it was them. That they were the problems. Thats what they have been brainwashed with by their wayward spouses.
JujuB,
I completely agree! That's why I preach "pack their sh*t and boot 'em out."
There is a difference between avoiding something you don't want and getting what you want. Playing the abuse and booting them out card avoids a tough situation, but it doesn't result in a lifelong fulfilling partnership. The result is divorce and a broken home.
The main culprit is this persistent delusion that "we deserve more and we'll find someone better". It took me a while to understand how people would still believe this but it is a very alluring idea because we all think we're special and deserve to have our wishes come true. In practice it just doesn't play out that way. Somewhere around 40% never remarry, and approximately 67% of those who do go on to divorce. So right there the odds are 20% that someone will achieve a life long marriage after a divorce. And that still hasn't addressed the relative quality of the partner. Many of those marriages aren't any better, but sometimes people learn to put up with a little more because the grass isn't greener. In the end it's the same group of people divorcing and remarrying each other, and they are all flawed humans. And even for the subset of this 20% that was truly in a threatening situation who found better success with their next partner, they are still dealing with the loss and ramifications of their divorce for the rest of their life. Don't hit me with anecdotes about someone that's found the love of their life. I know they are out there. If you do an unbiased survey the conclusions are clear.
This is the part that gets left out of the 'don't put up with their crap'. As long as we're comparing a bad relationship with the fantasy of reading a self help book or two and ending up in a fulfilling lifelong relationship then our current relationship looks pretty bad. In fact, this line of reasoning is the same that WAS's use in the first place. The WAS thinks they were abused and they are doing the right thing by not taking any crap. They think they're special and deserve better.
MWD's message is very similar to what I've posted. She is saying that in almost all cases that a spouse thinks their marriage could never change and be fulfilling there is hope, and divorce isn't the right answer. Yes, she was shaped by her personal experiences, but also by being an IC for years and seeing the reality of how hundreds of divorces initiated and played out.
I don't mean to be discouraging to people that are single that didn't choose to be. I am a LBS as are most of you on these boards. But to me the whole "I deserve better and I'm going to go get it" attitude is what's responsible for more destruction that the H bomb. It was responsible for the biggest loss in my life and it hasn't worked out that well for XW from what I can tell. If her life improves years from now it will be in spite of the divorce, not because of it. So I'm not going to turn the tables and say, "XW had the right attitude, I should've just played the 'I deserve better' card first and left her years ago so I could be living the dream by now".
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I agree with you. But, when a spouse is having an affair, and the affair is discovered, I really think the hard-line approach would result in a better outcome, in most cases, than the "game playing" approach (180s, no kissing, and the rest of the stuff). Regardless of approach, I think GAL is very important.
The problem with the softer approach is that it's nearly impossible for the LBS to implement effectively and it usually results in a lot of cake eating. The LBS eventually learns how to properly apply the techniques, but by then they've been gaslighted and used as a doormat.
Of course, the problem with the hard-line approach is the same; it's difficult to get people to execute the "pack 'em up and move 'em out" approach.
I had a boss who's wife was having an online EA. As soon as he discovered it, he filed for divorce, went out and bought his own house and moved out. He was divorced in three months. His wife came back shortly after a heated divorce and they're together, but I don't think he'll ever remarry her because he no longer trusts her. (They have two kids that were relatively young at the time of the divorce.)
Yes. LBS's new to these forums struggle to grasp the advice being given. They hear "detach" as a maneuver designed to avoid the loss they are facing so they don't have to detach.
My last post didn't address what I think LBS's SHOULD do, only what I consider to be a common mistake of adapting the WAS mentality.
There is a road in which you can detach, set strong boundaries, become a better person, and find purpose and meaning and fulfillment within the chaos of a broken relationship. This isn't about enabling addiction or enduring abuse or demeaning yourself. There's a narrative out there that it takes a strong person to walk away from a bad relationship, when it actually takes a much stronger person to transcend their domestic struggles when their partner is falling short at that time.
From this state amazing transformations are possible, individually at first, and even with the relationship. MWD is about finding this strength and giving the opportunity for some of those transformations to occur. Yes, many LBS's remain weak and cling to an approach and a relationship that isn't functional. But growth comes from experience and failure, so some of that is healthy as part of the process. It may take a few months or a few years before an LBS finds the right path, but it's worth it if they learn this lesson in the end. They grow and may even preserve the family. Filing D isn't true strength, it's running from the biggest character and strength builder out there. Only MWD's road might actually result in the outcome we all really want: A good lifelong relationship with our spouse.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
His wife came back shortly after a heated divorce and they're together, but I don't think he'll ever remarry her because he no longer trusts her. (They have two kids that were relatively young at the time of the divorce.)
This got me thinking of what it would take for me to trust my XW again if she wanted to R. At first I thought "not possible", but then I wondered.
Me, I could write a book on this subject expressing many of the views I've posted about. I've reflected on it for years and have posted enough content that if I was inspired to organize it, flesh it out, and polish it up it could be a fun read.
So maybe that would be what it would take. If XW was like "I've changed, I want to make this work, what would it take for a second chance?", maybe the right answer is "Publish a 400+ page book that is pro marriage". Hey, if all it took to save your marriage was writing a book then that seems a small price to pay, right? If she can't or won't write that book, how much has really changed?
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
You know who else offers hope? Psychics and con artists and many divorce lawyers. They pray on vulnerable people. Most of us here were in abusive or toxic situations. We are the most vulnerable. Chrissy, scouring these forums coming on here with help for over 100 dollars an hour for a phone visit? Whats the difference between her and an ambulabce chaser?
Hope is what brought pretty much all of us here. And hope is what kept some of us fighting for something that was already dead. I remember writing to another poster quite some time ago who was really trying to understand and analyze that by the time most people ended up here, we were a very small set of those who could possibly reconcile. It takes an act of desperation to throw yourself on the some-times not so tender mercies of a peer supported forum.
Many of the strategies promoted by MWD are very likely quite effective in the "he leaves the toilet seat up" and "she doesn't think my truck is sexy" land but not so much for the "she's been banging the milk-man for months now" class.
I have noticed though and did check back and it's been some time since Christy has done her little welcome pitch. Close on to a year now I think. That and some of the other issues we have technically make me think that the company sponsoring this site isn't focused on it. Thank heavens for the moderators who are doing their best trying to keep things afloat despite an apparent lack of support.
From a commercial standpoint, this place is an entry-way into the counseling and book selling business. I have no problem with that. Bills gotta get paid. And I've witnessed people on this forum who have been legitimately helped by the services provided. I am in many ways one of them despite some very very nasty turns and conflicts I had with some very unkind people here who believed that they alone possessed "the truth".
The one question though that I burned to have an answer for at the beginning and was unable to get was "should I be hoping". I see this being asked from time to time - I don't pay too much attention to newcomers anymore - and still see people being given a hard time for not drinking the kool-aid of hope and "da rules" etc given to them by people who are themselves new to this too.
I think it boils down to "ya get what ya pays fer". I continue to be grateful for people like job, dream, and especially Jack_Three_Beans who have all been very kind to a lost and confused man.
By agreeing to be in this "house" we agree to play by their rules. It would be good if we could spare others the grief and sorrow caused by hope held on to too long - but who are we to judge? I get chastized sometimes when I post that not only do I not know the answers, but those others here also don't know the answers. And in many cases, people only accept the answers they want to hear.
That "confirmation bias" which I wrote about very many times along with the associated cognitive dissonance meant that I kept seeking the answers I wanted to hear. Which were perhaps not the ones I needed to hear.
Just my 2 cents Canadian.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
This got me thinking of what it would take for me to trust my XW again if she wanted to R. At first I thought "not possible", but then I wondered.
I've been asked this question a lot. My answer is that I can't see her doing what it would take for me to ever trust her again.
According to rumour she's got the sadz these days and I could imagine that she would be happy if her knight in battered armour with an old shaving basin for a helmet tried to rescue her. It would be a boost for her ego at least. I've gotten out of the rescuing business.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
