Thanks for the details Jim. I have no science or even research behind this, so I guess I just WONDER... is there a difference for when a WAW, like I said before, dips her toes in the PA pond versus jumping in? I just really wonder. It was in large part in your WAW's head. Oh, for certain, she did the EA part of it but when it came to PA, she seems to have hesitated - at least for the most part. So, my wondering then is, do WAW's who don't really go through with it have a better chance of coming back? I just wonder.
As for not knowing, I can really see both sides here. Part of me would really want to know while another part of me might not want to know. Do you NOT want to know? If you don't, I really don't see any issues with that. Thing is, if you do, and she is refusing to tell you - now there I have a problem. Is that where you are at? It almost sounds like it might be? If you do want to know and she won't tell you, what is up there? Beyond that, if you really want to know and she won't tell you - do you not have your answer? I mean, if it were me and my W or GF or whatever wanted to know if something happened with someone and the answer was no, I'd be screaming that as loud as I can - NO NOTHING HAPPENED! This "I can't remember" crap is just that - crap. She most certainly remembers.
My gut, sort of like I think your's is at, thinks something did happen short of intercourse. Then again... and I don't want to scare you or dredge things up here, but your W and my ExW really do seem to have similarities. I would have never thought she would cheat on me - but she clearly did - and not only once from what I've been able to figure out. It's amazing how people will say things or let them slip 10 years later.
Again, if things are good and you are fine with it all - there is nothing more to be done with it. If you are at piece with things, let them stay there. However, if not and you are still wondering, she really should be telling you - regardless of how hard it might be.
Lastly, time still needs to tick by before we will know for sure, but it really appears that your M has the makings of being one of those that end up better than ever. I'm pretty sure that's the case now already. I just think it could turn into one of those stories we hear and read about where things are better than they ever would have been had this not all happened.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
DonH well said. I agree.. Sometimes it takes adversity to get us to improve. That's Biblical so I can't take credit for it.
I feel that marital problems either end up bettering the relationship or destroying it.
hoos the key to keeping this permanent is to remember the feeling when your sitch was raw and never let your guard down. Thus was the mistake I made after 2005. Afrer my initial sitch I blew it again and ended up with another BD last December.
I heard it like this. A MR is like a car. keep up the routine maintenance and it will run smoothly. If not it will suffer a breakdown and it will take a big effort to repair it.
The old an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Quick check-in (I feel like I'm in AA sometimes ).
Just back from a long (10-day) vacation. One day at college orientation for S2, 5 days with my family at the lake, 4 days with just our little core family at the beach. Was a really, really fun and good vacay, prolly our best family vacay maybe ever. We all got along, kids were minimal trouble, S2 with tourettes managed his symptoms and didn't let them become too disruptive. W and i were warm and flirty and snuggly with each other even around the boys (which they think is "weird" and keep telling us so, but, oh well... we should've been a better example when they were younger.) At restaurant two nights ago W sat really close to me and draped one of her legs over my lap and kept ahold of my arm for most of the non-eating part of the meal, and S1 couldn't help his eyes keep drifting over and rolling his eyes, lol. Only "down side" was that there wasn't alot of room for, ummm, "romance", as we shared one hotel room most of the trip (have to see about changing that in the future.)
Things are still good with us, no hitches, we barely ever fight or even disagree, though we have gotten some practice with the latter in discussing our future living plans, as we each have somewhat different ideas as to exactly where we want to live, but we are both more flexible and cooperative in discussing the possibilities than we ever have been. The only potentially worrisome thing, to me, seems to be that we have gotten past the "honeymoon" period where we were all over each other all the time. It is really going to require being deliberate and taking the time to intentionally grow the relationship and make time to romance-- it doesn't just happen by itself. And that is probably my biggest fear, that complacency sets in and that we ultimately fall back into old patterns. One thing i have noticed, for instance, is that she has stopped going to the gym with me, or even at all, after coming along with me almost every time for the first few weeks.
We have not seen or talked to MC/IC in prolly 4 weeks, now. Thinking we should check in but W is like "what is there to talk to her about? Is anything wrong?" To which i am forced to admit "No, nothing is wrong." I do feel like MC's guidance could be invaluable in keeping us on track, however, so i am going to tell W that i am going to schedule a session, so let me know her (W's) availability.
anyhoo, that's it for now. S2 goes off to school in five weeks and S1 the week after that and then we're empty nesters!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Thanks for the details Jim. I have no science or even research behind this, so I guess I just WONDER... is there a difference for when a WAW, like I said before, dips her toes in the PA pond versus jumping in? I just really wonder. It was in large part in your WAW's head. Oh, for certain, she did the EA part of it but when it came to PA, she seems to have hesitated - at least for the most part. So, my wondering then is, do WAW's who don't really go through with it have a better chance of coming back? I just wonder.
I dont know if Sandi has ever addressed this aspect of the WW mindset or not. My own personal feeling, based on my own experience and on seeing other people's sitches unfold is that it is in fact harder to break off a relationship once it goes physical. I know there is a school of thought that EAs can be more dangerous because they are almost all "fantasy" and that once the A is consummated that the "fantasy" aspect of it goes out the window and it is less exciting/fulfilling, IDK. But i think there is alot to the idea that close, skin-to-skin contact can really create a physical bond between a man and woman, and that this is scientifically and "Chemically" provable with the oxytocin and all that. Also, once a WW has gone down that road, any inhibitions she may have had about doing so are then "gone" in a manner of thinking, and there is at that point much less of an aversion to "doing it again." I think this latter aspect is true for most people, men and women alike, with just about any sin. Once you do it you're like "well, i've already done it once..." In my own W's sitch, i don't think she went all the way down the road to intercourse... she kept too much of her pre-WW "good girl" mindset (buried though it was) as well as the fear of taking that final step, of disappointing her parents, of losing her kids, etc etc. There was also the risk of pregnancy, which i know she definitely feared, not having the option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy (she's catholic and the prospect of facing that is a big big issue with her-- she never even started BC until after we started reconciling with each other.)
Also, i am on record as believing that the more deeply my W got involved with OM, the harder it became for her to tear away from that relationship. Had she ended it at BD, when i first discovered it, i think she could have pulled away much more easily than she eventually did. Problem was, had she done so, there was no "us" to come back to at that point, and she likely still would have left me or at least found another OM. But, at any rate, yeah... it was pretty clear in her case that getting more intimately involved (There was a night out partying and later overnight in a hotel that did not involve intercourse but most likely involved some intimacy short of that and which, i believe, was what rekindled the relationship with OM after she had initially mad some efforts to distance herself.) Their relationship progressed from light flirting and musing on the phone about the possibility of a future relationship (what i overheard at the time of BD) to, several weeks later, my W in tears on phone to OM outside his bar crying "I just want to jump on you and run away with you and i know if i come in there i wont be able to leave." After that, it became, obviously, much harder for her to "break that spell". Interestingly, my W's memory is very foggy about that and about other episodes. She admits to them openly, now, but her recollection of the exact words and such is much less clear and sharp than mine is. I'll never forget hearing that. Which brings me to...
Quote:
As for not knowing, I can really see both sides here. Part of me would really want to know while another part of me might not want to know. Do you NOT want to know? If you don't, I really don't see any issues with that. Thing is, if you do, and she is refusing to tell you - now there I have a problem. Is that where you are at? It almost sounds like it might be? If you do want to know and she won't tell you, what is up there? Beyond that, if you really want to know and she won't tell you - do you not have your answer?
I am torn about this. I still am somewhat "haunted", I guess, by some of these memories, and they are still an issue for me. Two weeks ago we were out running erands and i punched up the GPS to give us directions and just started blindly following them as i chatted with W. It ended up taking us right past OM's house! Neither of us said anything or acknowledged it (I was tempted to say something like "Hi OM!" laughingly or maybe snidely, IDK, while waving, but i refrained.) But it did bring up ugly feelings. Similarly, i had some unpleasant memories at the beach this week... it was our last family beach vacation that she left at the end of to go meet up with her GFs... and with OM... last july. I couldn't help thinking about that from time to time this year. Finally, when the anniversary of that trip came up on FB, one of her two GFs who she me there posted on her timeline a picture of them there last year and said "Oh, let's go back!" which, since i follow my W and we now have each others' FB accounts on our own phones I saw. That really bugged me, because of course this girl knows that my W saw OM on that trip. Grrrr.... Oh well, all things to talk about with the MC...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
HJ, thanks for the update! ALways good to hear about your sitch.
We too have suspended MC for now. With the house stuff going on. Just too much to do. We talked about it over the weekend, how we actually miss it. So we will probably do ad hoc sessions from here on out, not every week. Not to mention the new house is 20 minutes further away from the MC.
The key is me and my issues. We had a great move, worked a team, had very little short moments with each other. So all in all it was awesome, and we are very proud of our teamwork together.
Anyway, keep us updated.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
The lasting memories are definitely difficult. I just mentioned last week in a post about watching my W go through her EA withdrawal in 2005. Watching her hurt has never been easy. But watching her hurt over that was painful. You're seeing it and thinking "this shouldn't be that difficult for her".
But this is the case with any traumatic experience. Not just MR problems.
But yes those memories mean we have to remain vigilant against slipping back into old habits.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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