No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[Btrow]

Guys,
Steve is joking. The correct acrynym here would be OB.

[SteveLW]

There is nothing M about this boy.

Steve, OM is the abbreviation for "other man".

Oh I know. 😉

[sandi2]

😉

Are you cursing?

[44tries]

Well, I doubt I could top that response! I tend to get too sarcastic.

Hooray! I must be learning

She is going to push back really hard, b/c you have had a big hand in spoiling her. It's always harder to take a spoiled bratt and retrain them. But, it can be done!

I think she will pull the guilt card every time you come back at her with a response that puts her in her place. She'll try to threaten, like she did about the airport. She will come up with new stuff. She'll twist it around to make it sound like you are the one having a mood/attitude........not being "nice enough to cater to her", etc. These are all actions of a spoiled bratt. If you give in, you will lose the ground you gain. Just keep your eyes forward, knowing how she's going to respect you some day. When she stops having this spoiled attitude, I bet the loving attitude returns pretty quickly.

I will do my best to be prepared for the pushback. She is definitely the master as twisting things to make it seem like I'm the bad guy somehow. I don't know how she does it! I need to learn quickly what to do in these situations because I know they are only going to happen more, and right now my default response is to usually become silent and look pissed off which isn't exactly 'strong'. And I definitely don't want to lose any hard earned ground.

When she says something about your attitude, say something like:

"I'm not the one who expects my spouse to wait on me hand & foot".

"I don't have an attitude. I'm just tired of you expecting me to hop when you say frog".

"Am I nice enough to bring you (fill in the blank)? Yes, I am. Will I do it? No, I won't".

(chuckle) "Live with it, Princess".

Perfect! Gonna need to get a box for all these index cards..

I think it may have been b/c you tried to "explain". Let her figure it out.

This makes sense. Much less than my 'usual', but still too much.

Remember it. B/c one day soon, you will have to remind her that you are taking some authority in your life.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...are referring to when she pushes back?

She wants space? Next time you are GAL and she's blowing up the phone, tell her, "Enjoy your space".

Great idea

I think I did pretty well today. She complained again of a migraine and feeling like crap. I said sorry to hear that and went about my day. She came into the kitchen while I was eating lunch and said something like "O wow, you can make yourself lunch but not me?" I just said "help yourself, there's plenty in the fridge". I kind of wish I had said something a little stronger, though, because it is really ridiculous when she does that. I'm not allowed to eat a meal without serving her as well?? And she doesn't even want to be married to me and still expects this??? Dear lord.

I took the dogs to the park and then went for a three hour bike ride, which was awesome. I am so happy I am finally getting out and actually seeing the beautiful country I am living in. Meanwhile, W sat on the couch the ENTIRE day watching the trashiest television I can think of. I am actually starting to get a little worried. She is becoming crazier by the day. Manically asked if I was going on the bike ride alone or with someone, said okay I'm coming too (yeah right), followed me outside to smoke a cigarette while I pumped up my tires. When I got back, she physically wiped my forehead and said "No way you could have been riding that whole time, there would be more sweat." This time I did laugh in her face. I couldn't believe it! I promise she was not always like this. I hope she isn't going to have a nervous breakdown or something. She climbed into bed at 8pm and ranted to her iPad like a crazy person for 15min about not turning on, I could hear it from downstairs. I can honestly say she seems downright miserable.

[44tries]

[There is nothing M about this boy.

Ha! I love it. As soon as I posted to ask what you meant, I realized this was probably it. You are so right, Steve. He doesn't deserve to be OM.

[44tries]

Her comments about feeling alone or wanting to be left alone have nothing to do with you... It has nothing to do with your asking her to cut the chicken... And in fact, she's pretty darn confusing, and you can tell her that next time she asks about your attitude, or if you are nice enough to do something for her...

Say something like, "you asked for space and I am giving it to you, and you seem to like it until there's something you don't feel like doing... Well, I am not having it... Just think of it as me giving you your space.":

Something like that...

I'm glad it isn't just me that thinks she makes no sense! I am also glad you said you don't think the being alone thing has anything to do with me. I have become very sensitive to this 'space' issue because I will admit, I used to be very over-bearing. The kind that stems from desperation and neediness, and I am ashamed. But I haven't been that way for quite some time, because I listened and changed when she said she felt suffocated all the time (and also realized I was disgusted with myself). So now, when she makes similar comments, I panic a little, but you know what? I know I'm not like that anymore, and I don't think I am the real reason. She might be trying to convince herself that problem is still real, but her issues with it now are all her own. Great suggestion on what to say! I will use it, thank you.

[sandi2]

Ha! I love it. As soon as I posted to ask what you meant, I realized this was probably it. You are so right, Steve. He doesn't deserve to be OM.

Ahhhhh, I get what Steve was saying. So, I'm a little slow today.

[sandi2]

I will do my best to be prepared for the pushback. She is definitely the master as twisting things to make it seem like I'm the bad guy somehow. I don't know how she does it! I need to learn quickly what to do in these situations because I know they are only going to happen more, and right now my default response is to usually become silent and look pissed off which isn't exactly 'strong'. And I definitely don't want to lose any hard earned ground.

No, don't go silent and looked pissed off, b/c she'll know she got to you. She'll know it worked. I can tell you what to do. You become okay at being "the bad guy". I'm serious. Making you sound like the bad guy is one of the cards she plays. She has this deck of cards, and if one doesn't trump or score, she'll play another one. Only you control how you respond to her childish manipulative tricks. She can't make you feel like the bad guy, unless you agree with her. Right? And, you can't convince her otherwise, as long as you are trying to prove her wrong. See, that has been your mistake. You jump when she snaps her fingers, trying to prove you are a good H. It doesn't work that way. In fact, it works just the opposite.

Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.

So she twists things around........so what! Don't explain anything to her. If she says you are bad, say, "Yeah, I am a real bad boy". Sound as if you are having fun with it. Remember, act as if you find it amusing when she says this silly stuff.

WW: "You are horrible"! "Don't be surprised if I don't come home some night"!
You: "Okey-dokey then". (start whistling)

I think I did pretty well today. She complained again of a migraine and feeling like crap. I said sorry to hear that and went about my day. She came into the kitchen while I was eating lunch and said something like "O wow, you can make yourself lunch but not me?" I just said "help yourself, there's plenty in the fridge". I kind of wish I had said something a little stronger, though, because it is really ridiculous when she does that. I'm not allowed to eat a meal without serving her as well?? And she doesn't even want to be married to me and still expects this??? Dear lord.

It's b/c you have done this so much that she now feels entitled. I think your response was perfect. Very nonchalant. That's exactly the kind of attitude to show.

Great job on the bike ride! Your W isn't having a breakdown. Her sickness is called "self absorbed". I think you are going to quickly outgrow her. But, we'll wait and discuss it when it happens.

BTW, did she have a lot of questions about the bike ride? And did you keep your answers vague?

Keep up the great improvements!

[44tries]

No, don't go silent and looked pissed off, b/c she'll know she got to you. She'll know it worked. I can tell you what to do. You become okay at being "the bad guy". I'm serious. Making you sound like the bad guy is one of the cards she plays. She has this deck of cards, and if one doesn't trump or score, she'll play another one. Only you control how you respond to her childish manipulative tricks. She can't make you feel like the bad guy, unless you agree with her. Right? And, you can't convince her otherwise, as long as you are trying to prove her wrong. See, that has been your mistake. You jump when she snaps her fingers, trying to prove you are a good H. It doesn't work that way. In fact, it works just the opposite.

I definitely understand the dynamic you are describing--she paints me as the bad guy so I jump to do things for her and prove her wrong. But I got a little confused by what you said should be my response. You said I should agree with her? You also said she can't make me feel like the bad guy unless I agree with her. Sorry, I may be slow today. I'm clear though about how I shouldn't be trying to prove her wrong.

Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.

Yes, many times. I know that it's true, but I could never really wrap my head around the logic of it. However, data is data, and you are right I think there's a valuable lesson there.

So she twists things around........so what! Don't explain anything to her. If she says you are bad, say, "Yeah, I am a real bad boy". Sound as if you are having fun with it. Remember, act as if you find it amusing when she says this silly stuff.

WW: "You are horrible"! "Don't be surprised if I don't come home some night"!
You: "Okey-dokey then". (start whistling)

Got it. Need to add No more explaining to my rules list. I do have to say if she says I'm a jerk for mocking her, she wouldn't really be wrong. Is that what I'm going for?

It's b/c you have done this so much that she now feels entitled. I think your response was perfect. Very nonchalant. That's exactly the kind of attitude to show.

Great, I can do nonchalant.

Great job on the bike ride! Your W isn't having a breakdown. Her sickness is called "self absorbed". I think you are going to quickly outgrow her. But, we'll wait and discuss it when it happens.

Lol, that does sound more accurate. You might be right. Either way, I'll be happy because that means I've grown. But I hope she will grow too when gets the picture that her silly antics aren't going to fly anymore.

BTW, did she have a lot of questions about the bike ride? And did you keep your answers vague?

Yes, she was on her interrogation kick again, mostly seeming paranoid I was going with some girl (it really doesn't make any sense to me why she should care, especially to a manic extent). I did try and keep my answers as vague as possible. When I first headed out the door, she asked where I was going and I said "Out." Of course, "out where? What did you just get out of the office? Where are you going, tell me now!" Then tries to demand to see what I got, which was my bike bag. After she saw it, I just said omg I'm going to ride my bike, don't know how long but don't wait up. Surprisingly, she did not message me while I was on the ride, even though it was a very long one. But when I got back, she did the forehead thing and also asked questions like why are your shoes muddy? Did you get off your bike? I just said, "It's been raining a lot. There was mud." I think I did pretty well.


I realize I'm posting a lot and I thank all who to take the time to read them. I am really treading into unknown territory and appreciate all the support. This morning was, to put it bluntly, pretty awful. As usual, W gets up and starts muttering and swearing to herself about how she's late, doesn't have time to pack lunch, etc. These are all passive aggressive comments to try and get me to help her. Obviously, now that I'm in recovery, I ignore them and go about my own business. That makes it worse. The comments become rants. "F*** me, right dogs? Always late, nobody cares about me. I'll just go hungry, blah blah blah." I just tune her out. She not-so-subtly declares she fed the dogs and let them out (which is her job in the mornings and always has been; I do evenings). Somehow, she thinks this means I owe her something. I just say "cool, thanks."

Well, today the rants turned more personal. The pushback is in full swing. She is yelling about how she has no clean clothes in her closet. I remind her she has a big pile up on the hamper, ready to be put away. A week ago, she was telling me I didn't need to fold her laundry, to which I lightheartedly said 'O don't worry, I wasn't going to'. (But I will still wash it, because laundry has always been my job and frankly it's more trouble to separate it and do my own). Now, it's "you can't at least put it in my closet?! Look at this, wrinkles, dog hair! Does this look professional to you??" She goes on, "You know, you have been awfully focused on yourself lately. I'm sick of your condescending comments and rude tone. Your productivity needs to go way up." Ensuing rant about how she is the one going to work supporting the household while I get to lollygag around and then have the audacity to not wait on her hand and foot, why don't I just really speak my mind and say what I want to say and she will right back (?), etc. Just throwing everything she can think of, essentially making me the bad guy. An awful tantrum and it was all I could do to keep my cool. I didn't really have a good response, I sort of went into 'turtle' mode and just tried to make it out alive without stooping to her level and causing further damage. I still have a lot of work to do if this is what it's going to be like. I really don't want my home life to become miserable, but I'll do whatever it takes.

The good takeaway that I'm holding onto is that she has very clearly noticed my changes and me standing up to her more. At least this is proof I have made real steps in the right direction.

[sandi2]

I definitely understand the dynamic you are describing--she paints me as the bad guy so I jump to do things for her and prove her wrong. But I got a little confused by what you said should be my response. You said I should agree with her? You also said she can't make me feel like the bad guy unless I agree with her. Sorry, I may be slow today. I'm clear though about how I shouldn't be trying to prove her wrong.

I looked back at my post and see how it must have been confusing. Maybe I should just scratch that part about her not making you feel like the bad guy unless you agree with her. I know what I was trying to say.....but made a mess of it.

If a stranger passed by and told you that your eyes are purple, would you shrug it off, maybe even have a chuckle about it........or would you get down in the dumps and think, "He thinks I have purple eyes. I know I don't, but he sees me in that way, and it upsets me. What can I do to convince him otherwise". Would you go buy colored contact lens, or try to verbally convince the stranger differently, or get a report from the eye specialist to verify your eyes aren't really purple? No......if anything you would be amused, instead of letting it get next to you. You might say something like, "Yeah, I get my eyes after my mother" (as you bat your lashes). You know the truth and the only way this could upset you is to care too much what the stranger thinks of your eyes. By caring too much, it causes you to doubt yourself, become defensive, paranoid, have an excessive need to convince the other person it's not true, etc.

In the case with your WW, I didn't mean seriously agree. Like hang your head and admit it, or agreeing to appease her. Use a comeback response where it kind of sounds like the words are agreeing with the W....but your tone and expression are sounding as if you find the whole thing to be a little amusing. Not every time, but in some instances where she is being so childish. Stay nonchalant, and if you can sound as if you find humor in it.........then give a soft laugh or a little smile. You are not seriously agreeing with her.

W: "You are so rude and inconsiderate"!
H: "That's me! Mr. Rude & Inconsiderate".

See how that sounds? You are not arguing, explaining, being defensive, going silent, or any of that stuff. You keep your tone of voice light. Here's the thing. You have verbally agreed, in an odd kind of way. But she knows you are not taking her jab seriously. She can't hurt you by saying negative things about you, b/c you will turn it around and sound as if you are agreeing......and you seem fine with it. Trust me, it will stop her from taking those jabs, b/c she doesn't get the desired results from you. Yes, it will probably make her angry......but who cares? Not you! Your WW wants you to jump through hoops and act like a trained poodle.......but it's not going to work.

Does that clarify things any better? If not, then maybe just forget it and I'll think of something else. I thought maybe your personality would lean this direction, but if I'm wrong, just speak up and tell me. BTW, nonchalant is not an excuse to not address her behavior. It's a different way of addressing it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.

Yes, many times. I know that it's true, but I could never really wrap my head around the logic of it. However, data is data, and you are right I think there's a valuable lesson there

There is some misconception in girls being attracted to bad boys. Normal women do not want to have a bad person for a H. What attracts women to the bad boy image is his self confidence. He isn't a mama's boy. He doesn't let Mama or any other chick run his life. He thinks for himself, and if his woman gets a little bossy, shows a sense of self entitlement, nags, or any other unattractive quality......he tells her to get lost. He is not subservient or submissive. He is an alpha male and he always dominates his woman.......and that's why there are no issues with him not getting enough sex. He knows the difference in dominating and domineering.

Yes, she was on her interrogation kick again, mostly seeming paranoid I was going with some girl (it really doesn't make any sense to me why she should care, especially to a manic extent).

Stop it. It makes perfect sense to me. She is not paranoid or manic! Stop making excuses for her. She is wayward. I told you she would do this. B/c she's cheating, she is going to suspect your sudden interest in GAL is for the same purpose. That's why I told you to secure your IPad, b/c she is going to search nigh and low to see what you are doing. Here the thing. Let her be jealous, and wonder if there is someone else. Not that I am trying to get you to be cruel, but this is what she needs in order to shake her and make her realize she could lose you. This is a distraction from her OM. Don't pretend there is another woman, or try to make her jealous.......but neither should you take interrogation. OMG, she takes you for granted, can't you see it? The WW doesn't want her H, but she doesn't want anyone else having him. Just keep doing your thing. Don't lie, but don't give her solid answers. She doesn't get to interrogate you. I hope you chose this opportunity to use, "I'm not the one in the military". You can always hold up hand in the "stop" position and say, "I am not going to be interrogated". And just ignore the rest of her questions.

I would have a very hard time keeping my mouth closed at her passive-agressive remarks to the dogs in the mornings! But, I suppose ignoring it is best, for now. My gosh, this woman is making me want to throw up! Surely I wasn't that disgusting!
I've always been pretty direct, so I don't think there is much passive-agressive junk in me. Please tell me you did not fix her a packed lunch.

She not-so-subtly declares she fed the dogs and let them out (which is her job in the mornings and always has been; I do evenings). Somehow, she thinks this means I owe her something. I just say "cool, thanks."

If it is her job......then stop saying "cool" and stop thanking her for doing her job. Once she starts acting like a grown up, then you can say more......maybe, IDK. For now, just say, "Okay". Just b/c she acts as if she's doing you a big favor, doesn't mean you should act as if she's doing you a big favor, too. Drop the NGS stuff.

A week ago, she was telling me I didn't need to fold her laundry, to which I lightheartedly said 'O don't worry, I wasn't going to

Great response!

. (But I will still wash it, because laundry has always been my job and frankly it's more trouble to separate it and do my own)

This is a load of cr@p. It is your NGS talking. Do they have a Walmart store where you live? You can purchase a blue barracks bag type of laundry bag for about $5 or $6. Or you can use a large trash bag or a plastic tub to set in "her" bedroom for "her" dirty clothes. I mean, what's the difference in sorting dirty clothes or clean clothes? If you are washing them all together, but leaving her clean clothes in the laundry room........you are still sorting at some point, aren't you? I think it would fix Miss Fancy Britches up right nicely let her do [b]all of her own laundry.

An awful tantrum and it was all I could do to keep my cool. I didn't really have a good response, I sort of went into 'turtle' mode and just tried to make it out alive without stooping to her level

Yeah, it's all I can do to keep my cool with you, too! Wasn't it you I warned about these excuses of taking the higher ground....be the bigger person, nice-guy b.s.? "It was all you could do to keep your cool" is a lie. You were scared sh'tless.

You know, if you weren't so scared of her leaving, and if you'd really lose your cool when she acted this way, she might stop kicking you in the face every day! All you could do to keep your cool.........my a$$. Ignoring her passive-aggressive remarks to the dogs is one thing. But this tantrum she threw, screams of self entitlement, and it was directed straight at you. If there was EVER a time you should have stood up to her.....it was at that moment. She thinks b/c she brings home the paycheck, you are worthless and she is entitled to be waited on hand & foot. And, you ran back into your turtle shell, so expect more of the same to come.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you won't be able to use lighthearted comebacks. Not after this episode. It may be too late for anything that hints of a lighter note.

I still have a lot of work to do if this is what it's going to be like.

Well, this is what it's going to be like.......and not standing up to her, just set you back. So get ready!

I really don't want my home life to become miserable, but I'll do whatever it takes.

I like you, but I'm not your mama, and I will tell you how it is.......not how you want to hear it is. It's time you put on your man pants, and accept that things are going to get worse. Maybe you M a she-devil, but you certainly have done your part in making her feel so self entitled. Now, you've got to set it straight.....or get out. You haven't known misery, yet.